The So-Called Melee Glitches

[Yuna]

Once again, I've seen the word "Glitch" being tossed around far too lightly when discussing Melee. How certain people define glitch is beyond me.

Is it a glitch if it's not covered in the official instruction manual (which is including with the game) or in an instructional video? Is it a glitch if it's not immediately obvious upon booting up the game and playing it for 10 minutes? Is it a glitch if you actually have to work to perform it instead of just tapping a button, direction or both at the same time?

Sure, people are complaining about the removal of a lot of old Advanced Techniques. But not all of them were glitches. In fact, only one of them kind was one.

Let's see... removed or otherwise nerfed into infinity ATs:
* Crouch Cancelling (though I might've seen vids with it, I'll report back come Wednesday)
* L-Cancelling
* Float-Cancelling
* Dash Dancing
* Directional Airdodging
* Wavedashing
* Reverse Neutral B
* Cancellable B moves

Were more ATs removed? I haven't really kept up lately.

Let's work through the list of the stuff I just mentioned:
* Crouch Cancelling: Of course it wasn't a glitch. The fact that holding down prevented you from flying off even from really strong attacks must've been intentional (as simply DI:ing downwards wouldn't really be enough to, say, CC Peach's entire downsmash).
* L-Cancelling: Present even in SSB64. Requires a button press. In SSB64, it cancelled pretty much all lag, so it was arguable it was a glitch then. In Melee however, it only cancelled half the lag (rounding upwards, I believe, if the original number of lag frames was uneven). A glitch cancelling all lag? Believable. Something that cancels 50% of all lag and even knows how to split uneven numbers? Has to be programmed.
* Float-Cancelling: Arguable that it's a glitch, though I doubt it. Surely, someone must've float-cancelled an aerial during beta testing. They would've caught it if it were a pure glitch. Not to mention the fact that there was already Z/L-cancelling. It's not like this was new to them, removing lag from aerials.
* Dash Dancing: You can cancel your dash after the initial animation. It's gotta be intentional. What possible programming malfunction could've caused it?
* Directional Airdodge: Obviously programmed into the game.
* Wavedashing (a direct result of the above): The only arguable glitch. It is by now well known that wavedashing wasn't intended to exist in the game. It's, however, not a glitch (Wikipedia/Google/Dictionary.com "Glitch"). It's an unintended result of the game's mechanism (directional airdodging, momentum and landing). A lot of elements in the game worked together to create this new technique.
* Reverse Neutral B (like lasers, Toad, etc.) requires you to tap the opposite direction of which you're facing, letting go and then tapping B. It would be illogical for this to be a side-effect/glitch of anything. What could they possibly have tried to do that would've resulted in this?
* Cancellable B moves (like lasers): Not all moves are cancellable, why are these specific moves so special? And I'm sure someone did an aerial laser during Beta Testing. It's hardly something that slipped them by. Also, they actually did catch a B-cancel glitch and remove it (Flame Cancelling). So it's not like they were asleep at the wheel or accidentally programmed in a glitch where certain B moves were cancellable as they only removed one (for which code had to be removed/rewritten).

The stuff that's gone were not glitches. They were intended and programmed into the game who-knows how painstainkingly? I never thought I'd see the day when I'd see enough people calling stuff like L-Cancelling glitches that I'd have to make a thread like this on Smashboards.

 

[garbage]

shut the hell up

 

[the656]

I agree 10char

So close to first post but so far

 

[Mr.Shmearo]

The truth.

 

[veil222]

This thread is a clone, and not the Luigi kind either. Complain in a pre-existing complaining about people complaining thread, there's about five of them now.

 

[Crispy4001]

Another 10 minutes, another new "here's my opinion on advanced whatevernots" thread.

 

[NES n00b]

So casuals agree to the 30,000,000 threads that say "stop complaining" with open arms, but when something states facts about something that is nearly competitive, they are like "we are tired of hearing this >=[."

As nice as an attempt it was, you should of not made this thread. We already have similar topics and explanations of which the casuals go "tralalalalala we are not listenening you are dumb, I like vernacular definitions of glitch and still misuse that definition blah blah blah." So stop spamming the boards. =\

 

[Japanese Monk]

Well, Wavelanding I heard was called "landfall special" in melee. Apparently the developers knew about it and I guess people got to the debug with AR and saw it had a name.

Now combining known moves into one (wavedash)....I really wouldn't consider that a glitch.

Correct me if im wrong though.

 

[Crispy4001]

So casuals agree to the 30,000,000 threads that say "stop complaining" with open arms, but when something states facts about something that is nearly competitive, they are like "we are tired of hearing this >=[."

Factual or not, competitive or casual, these kinds of threads are cries for attention. If you want to clear up a misconception someone had ... why not reply to them directly?

Right now new threads like this are just dragging the place down.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

shut the hell up

This is not a viable post. You have no right to spout out what Yuna can and cannot say, nor can I do to you, but it is off topic to say something like that. And rude >_>

and yes I agree Yuna

 

[TheOfficialSonicFanboy]

This is well needed in this day and age of people trying to find Brawl's meta game. I'll agree glitch is thrown around too easily.
Nice post. Well worth the read.

 

[Libomasus]

A lot of people like to use the word exploit, but I'd kind of think we were above arguing semantics like that. Theres really no justification for bringing it up at all, because it just makes you sound arrogant anyways.

Anyways, not to sound repetitive, but most of this has already been proven and if people are just too quick to criticize things they don't understand than they should be ignored. Lock their topics too. No need to make another topic.

 

[Yuna]

Factual or not, competitive or casual, these kinds of threads are cries for attention. If you're angry about something someone said, or a misconception someone had ... why not reply to them directly?

Right now new threads like this are just dragging the place down.

It would've risked getting lost in the rampant spam. At least now it's got a decent chance of being seen by a handful of people who might or might not learn something from it.

At the very least, it might piss off some idiots who'll realize they were wrong, yet instead of just admitting it, will feel indignant and brood over it (while screaming at other people)... whoops, I see it's already happened.

A lot of people like to use the word exploit, but I'd kind of think we were above arguing semantics like that. Theres really no justification for bringing it up at all, because it just makes you sound arrogant anyways.

Anyways, not to sound repetitive, but most of this has already been proven and if people are just too quick to criticize things they don't understand than they should be ignored. Lock their topics too. No need to make another topic.

They're not things that needs to be "proven" as it's "commonly accepted facts". However, the new breed of users (read: Users who registered after Brawl was announced and who probably aren't competitive players) are running around ignorant of these facts.

In the past 2 days, I've seen the word "glitch" used to describe any of these things from a good 10-15 different posters if I'm not imagining things. That's like someone walking into a forum about babies and calling Post-Partum Depression an Urban Legend.

It's not something that needs to be proven. It's just something that needs to be reintroduced and restated to the masses to teach them.

 

[Libomasus]

I'll agree it really should be common knowledge by now. Thats what I meant really.

Its too bad we can't ban people for not using common sense, but we can ban them for not reading stickies before posting garbage topics. Don't we have a sticky like this?

 

[Emokirby4]

glitch or no: it's part of the game. On the other side of the coin it's not a part of Brawl, therefore... what does it matter? Anyway, names don't mean anything: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

 

[that 1 guy]

Yuna you are crazy I mean so what if the programmers put those things in intentionally. People have no right to use them... wait I mean ABUSE them. /sarcasm

 

[Yuna]

I'll agree it really should be common knowledge by now. Thats what I meant really.

Its too bad we can't ban people for not using common sense, but we can ban them for not reading stickies before posting garbage topics. Don't we have a sticky like this?

The only reasonable sticky "against" this thread is the one with the rules where it says to not repost common knowledge. It might be common knowledge to me, you and the competitive players (and a few who aren't), but it obviously isn't common knowledge to a great number of people here on the boards.

How can you even know about stuff like L-Cancelling, Wavedashing and Crouch Cancelling and not know they obviously aren't glitches, anyway?

Because not only have I seen people call these things glitches, I have yet to see anyone else stand up to said people and saying "Now hold on, they're not glitches at all!" despite the fact that the "Glitch-sayers" often have people agreeing with them (making it rampant ignorance in a single thread instead of just single cases).

So it's common knowledge for, say, the people in the Back Room, but obviously not for the users of General Brawl (sad, but true).

And as I said, if I can just educate, say, 10 people, this thread will have served a purpose.

 

[Crispy4001]

It would've risked getting lost in the rampant spam. At least now it's got a decent chance of being seen by a handful of people who might or might not learn something from it.

At the very least, it might piss off some idiots who'll realize they were wrong, yet instead of just admitting it, will feel indignant and brood over it (while screaming at other people)... whoops, I see it's already happened.

It's going to get lost in the spam anyways. That's because everyone keeps making threads when they think their opinion on an ongoing debate in form of a long write-up is a gift to the community here.

Obviously, I'm just a joe shmoe here like any other, and apologize for the attack considering. But the approach here is all wrong, as I see it. Pissing off idiots is NOT what this place needs right now. That'll just make them start more threads in response to yours, as you did to them.

See the circle this is going in?

 

[Yuna]

It's going to get lost in the spam anyways. That's because everyone keeps making threads when they think their opinion on an ongoing debate in form of a long write-up is a gift to the community here.

Obviously, I'm just a joe shmoe here like any other, and apologize for the attack considering. But the approach here is all wrong, as I see it. Pissing off idiots is NOT what this place needs right now. That'll just make them start more threads in response to yours, as you did to them.

See the circle this is going in?

That comment was more a subtle insult to some people who've already responded in this thread. The original thought was to simply educate people to lessen confusion and clash in the future. And if 10 uneducated (on these specific things) people read this thread are educated as a result, I'd say it would've been worth it.

At least this thread has more value than a lot of other threads that exist on these boards.

 

[Metallic_Igloo]

I've never gotten into many AT's so I may not have room to speak, but I have done programming, and most if not all of these ATs are just a product of a whole lot of numbers being unintentionally processed at the same time. Lag is intentionally put in the game, if a combonation cancels that lag, it is unintentional.

 

[NES n00b]

I've never gotten into many AT's so I may not have room to speak, but I have done programming, and most if not all of these ATs are just a product of a whole lot of numbers being unintentionally processed at the same time. Lag is intentionally put in the game, if a combonation cancels that lag, it is unintentional.

LOL?

Roman Cancelling is intentional in GG, but it cancels lag. So it is a glitch? Please, find a better definition for glitch.

 

[Vijin]

Scrubs don't know any better... who would have guessed?

 

[Yuna]

LOL?

Roman Cancelling is intentional in GG, but it cancels lag. So it is a glitch? Please, find a better definition for glitch.

Quoted For Truth.

 

[FenrirIII]

I'm kinda on the agreement that, since it's not in Brawl or has been gimped, then really who cares anymore? I never cared for wavedashing one way or another in the first place, seeing as my main for the past two years (Ganondorf) has had very little use for it especially against the groups I usually play with.
I don't think it's a gltich, I just don't think it's cool that people are so actively 'searching' for the next wavedash. Can we at least let the game get released officially everywhere so people can, y'know, play it and enjoy before having to try and learn every little new technique that came out before their country even got it? That's all I think is silly. I don't mind learning the techniques and such, but geez why are you all in such a rush to get there so fast? Wavedashing wasn't discovered for years, and look how much it changed the metagame. Do we really want the metagame for Brawl to start before Europe even gets it?

 

[Yuna]

I'm kinda on the agreement that, since it's not in Brawl or has been gimped, then really who cares anymore? I never cared for wavedashing one way or another in the first place, seeing as my main for the past two years (Ganondorf) has had very little use for it especially against the groups I usually play with.

It's OK to not care. It is factually wrong, however, to say that these techniques were all glitches and that we're pathetic for using them to cheat/play the game not in the way it was intended/whatever other bovine manure they're spouting today.

 

[FenrirIII]

I just always thought it was weird that wavedashing made Luigi move faster than Captain Falcon could run. May not be a glitch, but something if definately wrong there if you know what I mean

 

[Balloon]

Thank god. STICKY THIS ****.

 

[veil222]

What you're trying to do has no point. The people you're trying to convince with this won't listen to you, this topic is nothing but flamebait for both sides of the topic. Making a topic that will potentially incite agressive back and forth, whether the idea is correct or not, is counter-productive to the forum as a whole. Especially when there are other thread that have talked about this, and you could have just responded to someone you feel is doing what you're complaining about with your first post in this thread in a pre-existing thread.

If you think someone is a noob for calling techs glitches, do everyone a favor and just ignore them, because topic like this give them a reason to hang around and argue.

 

[AlphaZealot]

* Wavedashing (a direct result of the above): The only arguable glitch. It is by now well known that wavedashing wasn't intended to exist in the game. It's, however, not a glitch (Wikipedia/Google/Dictionary.com "Glitch"). It's an unintended result of the game's mechanism (directional airdodging, momentum and landing). A lot of elements in the game worked together to create this new technique. It was discovered during Beta Testing and it was decided that it would stay (either because they liked it or were just too lazy to remove it).

That second part about it being discovered during beta testing is false. The so called "landfall special" in action replay is an encompass all term that describes a lot of actions, including landing after performing a characters upB attack. Search threads by superdoodleman, he explains this in more detail. Basically its a rumor/half truth that got spread around that eventually it became truth.

Also, dashing dancing is supposedly back for Brawl. I also remember hearing the Float Canceling is still around.

 

[veil222]

Both are alpha, the new techs are also looking a lot more intuitive than melee's, making combat look overall more fluid.

 

[Yuna]

That second part about it being discovered during beta testing is false. The so called "landfall special" in action replay is an encompass all term that describes a lot of actions, including landing after performing a characters upB attack. Search threads by superdoodleman, he explains this in more detail. Basically its a rumor/half truth that got spread around that eventually it became truth.

I'll modify that into the opening post then.

Also, dashing dancing is supposedly back for Brawl. I also remember hearing the Float Canceling is still around.

Yeah, but they nerfed it into oblivion and people are also calling it a glitch.

I've seen float-cancelled aerials dish out full lag. In fact, I haven't seen a single obvious Float Cancel yet.

 

[LunaEqualsLuna]

Pretty much the main game breaking glitch skill in melee was the wavedash. All the other skills you listed as well as claiming the word glitch skill refers to any skill not in the game manual and has been removed or nerfed in Brawl is just a straw man argument.

I mean who the hell called reverse B neutralling or crouch cancelling a glitch and even people did (you will always find one person who would) it is nowhere near the game breaking/changing level of the wave dash. (which is the only glitch skill i consider melee to have)

When people refer to the game breaking glitch skill in melee pretty much the only one that anyone really cares about is the wavedash... just take a look at the size of the OMG NO WAVEDASH' posts of the past, to the number of 'OMG REVERSE B NEUTRALLING IS GONE' posts to see which 'glitch skill' was really the most important.

Get over yourself.

 

[drengist]

I hope someday people get tired of arguing.

 

[LunaEqualsLuna]

Then why do you visit forums then?

We don't arrange tea parties here, if thats what you were thinking.

 

[F@lc0-san]

People really dont understand what glitches are.

Typing 1+1 on your calculator and getting 799 as the result is a glitch.

 

[that 1 guy]

Pretty much the main game breaking glitch skill in melee was the wavedash. All the other skills you listed as well as claiming the word glitch skill refers to any skill not in the game manual and has been removed or nerfed in Brawl is just a straw man argument.

I mean who the hell called reverse B neutralling or crouch cancelling a glitch and even people did (you will always find one person who would) it is nowhere near the game breaking/changing level of the wave dash. (which is the only glitch skill i consider melee to have)

When people refer to the game breaking glitch skill in melee pretty much the only one that anyone really cares about is the wavedash... just take a look at the size of the OMG NO WAVEDASH' posts of the past, to the number of 'OMG REVERSE B NEUTRALLING IS GONE' posts to see which 'glitch skill' was really the most important.

Get over yourself.

Wavedashing isn't really as game breaking as you think. If you use it to bait you can get the same results by dash dancing. Pretty much the only characters it was game breaking for would be fox(waveshining), ice climbers(it's how they move), and luigi(it's how he moves).

Also thinking the pro players can't win without wavedashing is a big mistake. One of the things that makes them good is not only technical prowess (which I believe includes everything from spacing to l-canceling), but experience. Spacing is going to be a big part of this game and that skill will definitely transfer over from melee.

 

[Baconater]

Good thing you posted this under General Brawl Discussion seeing as it relates to Brawl in no way. I may think that what you're saying is stupid, pedantic, oversimplified, and dumb as hell to phrase it best, but I'm not gonna tell you to shut up, I'm just gonna say post where it belongs.

MOD move this to Melee boards

 

[cynar]

They were bugs, that's why they are gone. /end thread

 

[kamekasu]

Yeah, but they nerfed it (Dash dancing) into oblivion and people are also calling it a glitch.

I've seen float-cancelled aerials dish out full lag. In fact, I haven't seen a single obvious Float Cancel yet.

Dash dancing hasn't been nerfed, it's just been changed completely. You can no longer use it the way it was intended. You have to pivot really quickly, or you'll trip.

I was under the impression Float-Canceling was out? I could be mistaken. I haven't yet tried it.

Pretty much the main game breaking glitch skill in melee was the wavedash. All the other skills you listed as well as claiming the word glitch skill refers to any skill not in the game manual and has been removed or nerfed in Brawl is just a straw man argument.

I mean who the hell called reverse B neutralling or crouch cancelling a glitch and even people did (you will always find one person who would) it is nowhere near the game breaking/changing level of the wave dash. (which is the only glitch skill i consider melee to have)

When people refer to the game breaking glitch skill in melee pretty much the only one that anyone really cares about is the wavedash... just take a look at the size of the OMG NO WAVEDASH' posts of the past, to the number of 'OMG REVERSE B NEUTRALLING IS GONE' posts to see which 'glitch skill' was really the most important.

Get over yourself.

Wavedash was far from 'game-breaking.' It allowed for smoother movement, and faster combos. The most useful implementation for me was wavelanding, as it allowed for fast, efficient ledge-hogs. That's not game breaking. You can just just SH backwards for the same effect.

What you don't realize is that half the people who make the "OMG NO WAVEDASH" threads aren't even pros. They're trolls. Most of the time, they don't even know who to use the advanced tactic to begin with. 'Glitch skill' has nothing to do with how pros win matches. Experience and mindgames play a huge role. SHFFLing is way more game breaking than wavedashing, yet nobody calls it a glitch.

They were bugs, that's why they are gone. /end thread

They're aren't bugs. Did you read the post at all? L/Z-canceling has existed since Smash 64. It was there as a technique included by the developers to reduce landing lag on aerial moves. If it was a bug would they have included it in two consecutive games, each using a different engine? The reason it's not in Brawl is because Brawl uses the Havok physics engine, and the found a workaround for the extreme landing lag that some moves have: give some moves landing lag and remove landing lag altogether for other moves.

Wavedashing wouldn't be considered a glitch if it didn't have that ridiculous name. If it was just "air-dodging along the ground" people wouldn't complain. Half the people who complain about wavedashing can't even do it.

Smash Boards is the home of the competitive Smash community. People who don't like advanced tactics should either keep quiet or go to GameFAQs or some other casual board.

 

[Yuna]

Good thing you posted this under General Brawl Discussion seeing as it relates to Brawl in no way. I may think that what you're saying is stupid, pedantic, oversimplified, and dumb as hell to phrase it best, but I'm not gonna tell you to shut up, I'm just gonna say post where it belongs.

MOD move this to Melee boards

It has everything to do with how people are talking about them on this forum and how people are discussing them not being around/not being around in the same capacity in Brawl.