The Punching Bag- Little Mac Whine/Defense Thread

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jet56

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#81
little mac is a high skill character. the learning curve on him is steep. always has been. which is why there is such a break in opinions, "op" or "bad'. i just finished a FG session, winning 90% of the time, and most players got upset, because the camp didn't work because i used roll cancel grabbing to surprise, or i used pivots for solid spacing and bait. using the fabulous name tag as a way of communication *cough*, they were generally surprised as to why they were losing so bad. understand im not here to brag, only help explain why there is so much hate and general salt. little mac is not poorly designed, he's a polar character. and i don't mind that, because if everyone was more or less balanced, its not as dynamic.

so is lucario harder to play against? or little mac? i find little mac players easier, unless they are good. lucario rewards players with aura whether they are good or bad, same way k.o. punch rewards little mac players for taking damage.
 

Steelballray

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#82
little mac is a high skill character. the learning curve on him is steep. always has been. which is why there is such a break in opinions, "op" or "bad'. i just finished a FG session, winning 90% of the time, and most players got upset, because the camp didn't work because i used roll cancel grabbing to surprise, or i used pivots for solid spacing and bait. using the fabulous name tag as a way of communication *cough*, they were generally surprised as to why they were losing so bad. understand im not here to brag, only help explain why there is so much hate and general salt. little mac is not poorly designed, he's a polar character. and i don't mind that, because if everyone was more or less balanced, its not as dynamic.

so is lucario harder to play against? or little mac? i find little mac players easier, unless they are good. lucario rewards players with aura whether they are good or bad, same way k.o. punch rewards little mac players for taking damage.
Any character designed with two extremes aspects that are supposed to balance themselves out is a stupid, lazy one. When you play Little Mac you disregard the aerial aspect of the game completely and seriously, where's the fun in that? Spiking and stage spiking and edge guarding and aeiral fighting above the stage.. When Mac is your main you ignore all of these aspects of the game and focus on only one instead. Also, thinking that having no offensive abilitiss in the air is a cool disadvantage to fight against is a very immature way of thinking IMO. It's not something creative, its plain laziness. They could have made him a bit less of magnificent ground fighter while giving him aerials and recoveries that work. They could have give him some sort of mechanic that make him relate to the punch-out series without relying extensively on such a yawn worthy gimmick.

and about Lucario, he is totally harder to play against. Unlike Mac, there is no way to ensure a kill against Lucario when he's only 50 percent. And I don't believe his gimmick is as extreme as Mac. He have weak attacks when low on percentage but his combo potentials are somewhat decent with up throw strings and u-tilt. So youre not limited and can fight and deal damage even with no aura. I have also ended many first stocks for people who got my first stock first many times with smashes near the edge or edgeguard techniques with little to no aura. Following on our compression Mac cannot kill anything with aerial attacks or edge guarding techniques (come on, you can't count foot stalling) at all. Also, when you fight lucario your game plan doesnt divert all that much. You normally fight him and try to k.o him but become careful when his aura is high. When you fight a little Mac you just stick to the edges forever and try to deal a bit of damage with projectilss or safe pokes before backthrowing him into the abyss.

P.s I really wish to play against you. I'm bound to face a good Mac player sooner or later and I'd rather be prepared for it. So if you don't mind, please send me your NNID.
 

jet56

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#83
its true that his aerial game is bad, and there is more emphasis on the ground game, but his air game can be utilized. what if i told you a short hop front air has enough knockback to enable tech chases around 80% as well as strings with his down-tilt at mid percents? or nair can be used as a gimping tool and get out of certain strings, aerial or ground depending. or dair spikes at over 100% (and is your jab reset/jab lock, depending on whether you come from brawl or melee.) even uair can be used to bait airdodges so you can punish. empty jumps can be used to bait as well. and his side-b in air does 14%, and you can combo it with down-tilt even at high percents. up-b is a solid kill move, even when used in the air, and nair can string with it in the air. most little mac players don't use his air game at all, but a better little mac is one who takes advantage of his amazing ground game, and fully utilizes his aerial game, even if its not as varied or solid as other characters. there is more to mac than a solid ground game and crappy air game, most people just don't know it.

i think i already mentioned it in my previous post, but yeah, lucario is harder in general, i just found it easier when i was using little mac cause i could kill him at 50-70%, since his neutral game is not great and ending lag on his moves sucked, so its easy to punish. little mac can kill with up-b or side-b in the air, but those are his only kill moves. edge camping against little mac actually is a tactic i prefer my opponents to use, i take control of center stage, i can approach how i want, and i can pressure with my low cooldown moves, like my down tilt, jab, f-tilt, pivot smashes, or roll cancel grabbing. it works on most little macs because they think a smash, or dash attack (dear god) or side b will work. btw, macs should NEVER use dash in neutral, but that's a different topic i won't talk about till later. point is, most macs don't use tilts, or know how fast it really is (d-tilt comes out frame 3, f-tilt frame 4, jab frame 1, and so on.) hard to punish moves like that, or shield on reaction to them. custom makes him much better too, side b gaurd breaker has super armor so it can't be interrupted easily, neutral b flaming lunge can be a recovery move as well.

my only complaint? the k.o. punch mechanic, which gives you more for taking damage than doing damage, which rewards bad play, if it were the other way around it would be better.

my NNID is jet942 i believe. i would love to play a solid lucario, since most just abuse aura, and for some reason, don't use his aerials. i also have secondaries in roy and ike, and can also play sonic, falcon, and kirby well (my pocket characters.)
 

jet56

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#84
i should point out i can only do 3ds at the moment, my wii-u is having complications. which sucks, because i can't configure the c-stick.
 

Steelballray

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#86
Man.. Your posts were surely informative.. More so than I've anything I've read by Mac mains or haters. I'm excited to play with you. As of now, preparations for Eid Al futor are taking place but I still think I can play. Please do DM me as soon as you see this and can play. I can't even pretend to hide my excitement, this is gonna rock!
 
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jet56

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#87
I'm at work now, I'll be off in 3 hours I'll hit you up then I will also have tommorrow afternoon off.

friend code is 2112 8889 6158 btw.
 
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jet56

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#88
so, imma gonna complain not so much about little mac, but by player representation of him. seriously, its all the scrubs that play him (no offense to anyone out there) that hes got such a bad rep. and it bugs me because i play these guys and spectate and i see SO many mistakes being made. even tournament macs seem to under utlilize him. We should just ban dash attack from little mac players, and it would make most of them better players. sorry guys, had to get my rant off.
 

Ninj4pikachu

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#89
I think it's hilarious that many people at the beginning of smash 4 (and still today) think Mac is OP. I just don't get it. Maybe on a flat stage with walk-offs, but anytime there is a ledge I don't get how you don't just sit by the edge, shield grab that dash attack, and back throw. Idk what else to tell you.

I'll say one thing though, I would NEVER approach a Mac. They have waaaaay to many fast punishes and it's so easy just to make him come to you idk why anyone ever would.

Mac is a novelty character. He is super fun to play as, and has the best ground frame data in smash history, but at the end of the day he has LITERALY 2 options for stage recovery and both suck...
 
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#90
Okay, this will be quick...
MAC IS OP!!!
No, not really. Seriously, he is not OP. But I suck against him; not against a player, against the character himself. The guy may be literally spamming Smash Attacks and I lose. Also, I main mostly characters with a lack of long-range options (Final Cutter sucks, Falcon has no projectile and Falcon Kick/Raptor Boost are too laggy/predictable. Jiggs is too light and Ness' options are already too predictable) Maybe I'm being hyperbolic, but his Super Armor makes me mad that I saw the attack coming but could not punish it (if I shield it, I will be pushed, so it's no use too). If there was a change I wanted for him, it would be the loss of Super Armor for his Smashes, but he is too nerfed already. How to deal with Mac? I was unsure if I post it here.
 
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Ninj4pikachu

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#91
Okay, this will be quick...
MAC IS OP!!!
No, not really. Seriously, he is not OP. But I suck against him; not against a player, against the character himself. The guy may be literally spamming Smash Attacks and I lose. Also, I main mostly characters with a lack of long-range options (Final Cutter sucks, Falcon has no projectile and Falcon Kick/Raptor Boost are too laggy/predictable. Jiggs is too light and Ness' options are already too predictable) Maybe I'm being hyperbolic, but his Super Armor makes me mad that I saw the attack coming but could not punish it (if I shield it, I will be pushed, so it's no use too). If there was a change I wanted for him, it would be the loss of Super Armor for his Smashes, but he is too nerfed already. How to deal with Mac? I was unsure if I post it here.
If you let him come to you, and your back is at the edge, you can't be pushed back ;) just back throw with ness lol
 

jet56

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#92
actually you can, if you shield and he throws out a smash attaack that has enough push back on it, youll get pushed off the edge, it doesn't happen all the time, but it has happened. and ik his grab is bad, but if youre shielding, he can grab you before you react. or he can pressure with low cooldown moves and chip away at the shield. a veteran mac player won't be killed by a tactic like that, but most players don't know this. i should also mention mac's roll cancel grab doubles his grab range, so he can even punish tether grabbers.
 

Ninj4pikachu

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#93
actually you can, if you shield and he throws out a smash attaack that has enough push back on it, youll get pushed off the edge, it doesn't happen all the time, but it has happened. and ik his grab is bad, but if youre shielding, he can grab you before you react. or he can pressure with low cooldown moves and chip away at the shield. a veteran mac player won't be killed by a tactic like that, but most players don't know this. i should also mention mac's roll cancel grab doubles his grab range, so he can even punish tether grabbers.
Maybe he dose push you off the stage sometimes but not all the time, you only need 1 grab with ness to back throw his *** off the stage and that's really all it takes. Just a bad MU for Mac. If Mac beats you and u were ness you just got out played brah. But thank you for your input on the subject.
 

jet56

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#94
I must say that while little Mac does have a dIsadvantage, it's not as wide or as easy as you think. A bthrow by ness doesn't do it till almost 70 percent, and if you try to guess at his recovery and guess wrong or get countered for it, you take damage instead. Mac can also just take the lead in percent and then not approach ness, and just power shield his compass. Mac can also gimp ness relatively easily, and get past his projectile wall with side b.
 

Ninj4pikachu

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#95
I must say that while little Mac does have a dIsadvantage, it's not as wide or as easy as you think. A bthrow by ness doesn't do it till almost 70 percent, and if you try to guess at his recovery and guess wrong or get countered for it, you take damage instead. Mac can also just take the lead in percent and then not approach ness, and just power shield his compass. Mac can also gimp ness relatively easily, and get past his projectile wall with side b.
Does it really not kill u till 70% at the edge?... I assumed it would push you too far off at 50%. I'm not a ness main though.

When edgeguarding macs recovery I usually try and bait out the counter. If he won't counter I won't attack because I've lost that game too many times.

Tell me though, is there really anything you can do against my main :4darkpit:? If your recovering I have the option to push you with orbiters, or use the electro arm to power through your side B.

I haven't fought any good macs because I believe he is horribly represented in for glory because Mac is soooo easy and fun to pick up.
 

jet56

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#96
Recovery wise there isn't a lot, but sweet spotting a low upb will still get us back, even with obitars, since they dont reach below the stage. Eltroshock is hard read and if I predict it and counter it, I make it back. Still a *****, but doable.
 

Ninj4pikachu

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#97
Recovery wise there isn't a lot, but sweet spotting a low upb will still get us back, even with obitars, since they dont reach below the stage. Eltroshock is hard read and if I predict it and counter it, I make it back. Still a *****, but doable.
What would you say macs best/worst matchup would be?
 

jet56

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#98
What would you say macs best/worst matchup would be?
hmm, its hard to say...but i would have to say that :4ness:, :4sheik:, and :4zss: give are his top 3 worst. there are others, but none that are really overwhelming, and he does fantastic against most heavy and slow characters (bowser, DK, ike) and is more or less even against the rest of the cast. ive heard that he is a great counterpick for :rosalina: though.
 
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sleepy_Nex

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#99
Wait. Explain me why he is a counterpick to Rosaluma? She is great at edgeguarding and Luma is a meatshield.
 

SteadyDisciple

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Wait. Explain me why he is a counterpick to Rosaluma? She is great at edgeguarding and Luma is a meatshield.
I wouldn't call him a counter, but he definitely isn't a bad pick either, with the Rosaluma boards holding the matchup as 50/50. The reasons for why we do better against Rosaluma than many can be broken down into advantages against Rosalina, and dealing with the Luma.

Let's talk about the Luma first. Hitting the Luma actually helps us build the K.O. meter, so a small boon there, but not enough to make a difference in most cases. No, what makes us happy against the little neon puff is that his attacks are generally slower and shorter range than ours with a couple exceptions, and more importantly he is super easy for Mac to kill if your opponent isn't careful. A Luma that has just respawned anywhere near the edge can be punched off of it to its death with a smash or even Ftilt depending on the range. Lumas just lose out against Mac hard, and it's relatively easy to keep them dead.

With Luma taken care of for the most part, let's talk Rosalina. Rosalina is a very tall, very light character, meaning that hits are easier to land and kills come earlier. While it's true that she has much more range than us, her moves are also telegraphed and often times have noticeable lag on the end as well, letting us do silly things like break out of her jab after the second hit or respond to most any hit on our shield with impunity. It's suicide for her to approach Mac from the air if you as a player are decent at timing the super armor of your smash attacks, and on the ground your amazing frame data is just as useful as it was in dealing with the Luma.

That isn't to say that the match is in our favor. Like I said, many consider it a 50/50, since Rosaluma can juggle and gimp us like nobody's business, and if you can't kill the Luma it adds quite a bit of damage and knockback to all of her moves. So again, I wouldn't say counterpick personally, but definitely better than a lot can say against the pair.
 
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jet56

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Well said, I just said I heard that mac was a counterpick,I wasn't sure what the matchup advantage was. Still, Mac being able to kill Luma easily is one of the biggest reasons why he does well.
 

FairyLip

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Little Mac is kind of weird for me. On one hand, I think KO Uppercut is incredibly cheap, the only thing jankier being Mr. Jank and Watch's Judgement. On the other, he's a solid counterpick, considering almost nobody knows how to play against a good Lil' Max, from all of the Side-Bs of the ledge.
 

Ninj4pikachu

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Little Mac is kind of weird for me. On one hand, I think KO Uppercut is incredibly cheap, the only thing jankier being Mr. Jank and Watch's Judgement. On the other, he's a solid counterpick, considering almost nobody knows how to play against a good Lil' Max, from all of the Side-Bs of the ledge.
Dedede inhale near the edge, turn around, spit him out.... You just took a stock
 

jet56

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im curious @ninj4, do you think its really as simple as standing near the ledge and playing smart to beat mac? or are you saying the tactic works well because most macs don't know how to deal with it?
 

Ninj4pikachu

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im curious @ninj4, do you think its really as simple as standing near the ledge and playing smart to beat mac? or are you saying the tactic works well because most macs don't know how to deal with it?
unfortunately Its really that simple, at least against 90% of the lil Macs online. This hold especially true for my mains :4darkpit:&:4dk: who have an excellent grab and edgeguard game. I just stand with my back to the edge and wait for him to come to me. Once I get him offstage with a throw its kinda over. I mean Donkey Kong has the back air that walls mac, and Dark Pit has the orbiters and his side B which powers through your sideB and, which unlike pits, pushes you farther offstage.

as a mac main, can you tell me a way around this? please for the sake of the other macs in the community lol. mac is my favorite match up because he is soooooooo easy to gimp.
 

jet56

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i swear, i didn't know mac players have been giving such a bad impression. ok, mac doesn't HAVE to approach at all. he can play it safe and poke with his INSANELY low cool down moves like dtilt and ftilt (if spaced right). roll boosted grabs can punish shielders, and p pivots and footsies or dempsey rolls work just as well. its all about mixing it up and forcing a mistake. and you can't just stand there and switch from shield to spotdodge, mac is too fast, and will punish if that's the only defense option you use.

now when he is recovering, yes he is SO easy to gimp, and yes, he has limited options. but you still have to take a guess at his recovery, he has options.
1. going low and up b, if he misses sweetspot he's toast, but most veteran macs will space it right.
2. go high and side b, sometimes he doesn't need to, if he has a jump. good for mix ups.
3. counter if he's reading a edgegaurd air attack. this approach is only for reads, and is easily punished.
4. not an approach, more an option. he can airdodge an attack, since it is safer than counter.

and lets not forget that a ledge with a wall, will give him at least 2 more ledge recoveries, depending on the wall jump and space.

ways to counter his approaches.

1. gimp, but from the side, he does take priority from the top with up b, and he does get invincibility on his first 3 frames. or use a dsmash or something, but if he sweetspots it, youll miss, even orbitars don't reach below ledge. so gimping is a more reliable way.
2. easily punishable, if you wait on the ledge and shield and attack, or even you can punish with a dair from the air.
3. empty hops, or even waiting can punish counter.
4. again, same as above.

so, you can cover all ends by just waiting on the ledge and waiting for mac to commit right? well, problem is that up b sweetspot will save him from this edgeguard option, since you can't punish unless you gimp. even a low side b will sweetspot it, and ducks under the ledge. my guess is, and im not assuming, is that most macs you play, can't sweetspot the ledge, and mis space it, and you can just throw out orbituars and you win. and they also don't know all their options.
 

sleepy_Nex

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If Dedede tries to inhale mac on the ledge he gets a jab or a ftilt in his face. It's only a gimping tool i guess.
 

Ninj4pikachu

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i swear, i didn't know mac players have been giving such a bad impression. ok, mac doesn't HAVE to approach at all. he can play it safe and poke with his INSANELY low cool down moves like dtilt and ftilt (if spaced right). roll boosted grabs can punish shielders, and p pivots and footsies or dempsey rolls work just as well. its all about mixing it up and forcing a mistake. and you can't just stand there and switch from shield to spotdodge, mac is too fast, and will punish if that's the only defense option you use.

now when he is recovering, yes he is SO easy to gimp, and yes, he has limited options. but you still have to take a guess at his recovery, he has options.
1. going low and up b, if he misses sweetspot he's toast, but most veteran macs will space it right.
2. go high and side b, sometimes he doesn't need to, if he has a jump. good for mix ups.
3. counter if he's reading a edgegaurd air attack. this approach is only for reads, and is easily punished.
4. not an approach, more an option. he can airdodge an attack, since it is safer than counter.

and lets not forget that a ledge with a wall, will give him at least 2 more ledge recoveries, depending on the wall jump and space.

ways to counter his approaches.

1. gimp, but from the side, he does take priority from the top with up b, and he does get invincibility on his first 3 frames. or use a dsmash or something, but if he sweetspots it, youll miss, even orbitars don't reach below ledge. so gimping is a more reliable way.
2. easily punishable, if you wait on the ledge and shield and attack, or even you can punish with a dair from the air.
3. empty hops, or even waiting can punish counter.
4. again, same as above.

so, you can cover all ends by just waiting on the ledge and waiting for mac to commit right? well, problem is that up b sweetspot will save him from this edgeguard option, since you can't punish unless you gimp. even a low side b will sweetspot it, and ducks under the ledge. my guess is, and im not assuming, is that most macs you play, can't sweetspot the ledge, and mis space it, and you can just throw out orbituars and you win. and they also don't know all their options.
You would be a refreshing Mac to fight online compared to the norm. And your right, I don't think most macs know all their options. Because if most did the things you stated they wouldn't get gimped as easy.
 

jet56

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that would be cool. i love defending macs honor. :p but i should say that i only have a 3ds at the moment, im trying to get wii u, but that takes money. :/
 
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My variation is to charge FDsmash which will usually unsettle edge-spammers. They start dodging and shielding. Worst case scenario, they roll behind me, and unless they are Ganondorf, it won't matter much.

Anyway, charging FDsmash will play with their minds, and wether they shield or dodge, they'll get what's coming to them pretty quick. I've gotten most of my shield breaks on people waiting on the edge. :) And, in case anyone forgot... Breaking a shield over the edge is pretty much a free KO since all I have to do is push my opponent a bit.

As for Dedede's inhale:
1: Straight Lunge (I ocassionally use it to establish that I won't fall for the cheap tactic)
2: Rapid Jab (usually my preferred move)
3: Dtilt
 

DoubleReed

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Inhale is amazing against little mac just like grabs are, as it doesn't fall to spot dodges and super armor. But Kirby's inhale, while not as good, can also work. I don't know why anyone would refer to inhale as a "cheap tactic." It's a solid move esp at low percentages.
 
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SteadyDisciple

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so long as the talk of inhale is still going on, I feel like I should point something out. If timed correctly, here are a list of moves I know beat inhale...

Jab
Ftilt
Dtilt
Fsmash (any angle)
Dsmash
Straight Lunge
Jolt Haymaker
Dash Attack
Getup attack from failed tech.

I've never bothered to test Utilt, Usmash, Counter, Rising Uppercut, or grabs, so they may/may not work. Also, obviously getup attacks against inhale should be a situation that just never happens against a competent opponent, straight lunge can be avoided on reaction so long as your opponent knows it will go through Inhale, and Jolt Haymaker will often overshoot for a suicide near the ledge because of Inhale's windbox, but the point I'm making is this: At least 2/3rds of Mac's grounded moves beat inhale, possibly more. This is not a question of "Can you get past it" if someone is foolish enough to do this and hold it in the neutral, it's a question of which punish you should use based on percentage and stale move. Not really confident in your timing? Slide in with jab for a quick and easy 11%. In combo percentages? Dtilt into another move for maximum damage. Want a ton of damage without being able to combo? Down-angled Fsmash is your weapon of choice. Opponent clearly doesn't know the matchup incredibly well? Do a straight lunge at full charge, and watch one of the heaviest characters in the game (who also happens to have a good recovery) die off the side hilariously early.

Obviously, Inhale still has it's uses. It's very hard to deal with as mac when used as a gimping tool off-stage, but even when just being used from the edge it's not a good idea. If you are close enough to get caught, you're probably close enough to either come in over the top of it with a jolt haymaker to the Crown of DDD's cranium, or up from underneath with a rib-tickling Rising Uppercut if he's too close to the edge. Heck, most of the time even if you get chewed on a bit in these situations, you were too far out to make it back any other way, and the nibbling actually saved your sorry hide so you can try again after you get spit out.
 

DoubleReed

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??? All those moves beat a grab too so I have no idea what you're talking about. Generally speaking you use inhale like an air-grab. You don't just wait for mac to walk into your mouth. And Counters don't work.

"Do a straight lunge at full charge"? Are you serious? I'll just jump out of the way and beat the crap out of you. What the hell games are you playing? I'm going to use inhale to punish a shield, spot-dodge, or counter. It also works if you're trying to abuse your super armor. It's like a grab.

It just sounds like you've never actually dealt with someone seriously mixing in Inhale into his mindgames. It's quite effective against many of mac's tools.
 
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SteadyDisciple

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??? All those moves beat a grab too so I have no idea what you're talking about. Generally speaking you use inhale like an air-grab. You don't just wait for mac to walk into your mouth. And Counters don't work.

"Do a straight lunge at full charge"? Are you serious? I'll just jump out of the way and beat the crap out of you. What the hell games are you playing? I'm going to use inhale to punish a shield, spot-dodge, or counter. It also works if you're trying to abuse your super armor. It's like a grab.

It just sounds like you've never actually dealt with someone seriously mixing in Inhale into his mindgames. It's quite effective against many of mac's tools.
With the use of Straight Lunge, hence the qualifying statement regarding opponent's familiarity with the matchup. You'd be terrified at how many D3 players still think Inhale will beat Straight Lunge, and will just sit there while it charges.

As for your other stated uses... eh, yes, it works against counter, but if someone's using counter enough that you're expecting it you have much better punish options. I know for a fact that a sheilding mac can avoid inhale still on reaction to the startup animation thanks to our wonderful dodge roll, though for reading a spot dodge you're likely right in this assessment.

I'll be honest, while some of it may be that I haven't seen many/any good DDD players, Inhale just kind of seems like a non-issue. With 17 frames of startup it's pretty easy to avoid except at ranges where grab would be better, and with FAF of 78, missing is a guaranteed punish. The only time it's really useful on-stage would be possibly against a spot dodge or a poor counter, though again both of these options would be better punished by even a grab-back throw (unless you guys have reliable follow-ups to Inhale that I've never seen), and especially in the case of counter a smash attack.
 

DoubleReed

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Grab is always better on the ground, but you can't grab while in the air (or offstage). Standing inhale is terrible. Obviously as a Mac, you're going to try to punish my landings and beat the crap out of me, and that's where inhale becomes useful. Inhale lets me grab when usually I can't. And grabs are good against the mac.

This is also true of kirby. It's faster but smaller.

(I wonder if you could jump behind mac with inhale as he's recovering and drag him away from the edge with the windbox. That sounds pretty hilarious.)
 
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ExtremeDeath
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If I may include a bit of my experience with ol' LM, I've noted that; similarly to Ganondorf and Captain Falcon, Mac tends to be a more high risk, high reward character, the risk of course being his recovery and being easily gimped if said mac player hasn't attempted to add the wall jump into the recovery, though that can make for some insane mindgames, but that's just from when I've played him on For Glory
 
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LesterRoquefort
All i can say to people trashing him is this:

  1. Add more speed, he recovers gracefully then and if you know how to run and dodge like your life is on the line, he's OP.
  2. He was a Smash Trophy, enough said, i think.
Should he be nerfed? No, he fits perfectly into my aggressive ninja play style. I DO spam punch like crazy, but i keep an eye on how high i'm pummeling and who's behind me.

Then i dodge and run out of reflex if you're aiming for me. I also like to stay back to let nature do it's course and then go 1 on 1 with the survivor.
 

jet56

Smash Journeyman
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um...with all due respect Lester, we are talking about one v ones only, not teams or free for all. appreciate the input though.
 
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Jet's right, Lester; I was meaning more in a sense of in Tourneys and For Glory 1 v 1 Matches.
 
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LesterRoquefort
Of course, i was just "introducing myself" into the debate. Now to be on topic, thanks for letting me know.

One on one huh? I disagree entirely that ROB is Anti-LM... aside from him being the "lel, you can't get me up here" fighter in his regards, if your fast enough, you could likely still give ROB a relatively hard time. LM is pretty good at throwing things. Don't know how with those gloves on. Triple D or Kirby i also disagree with, moreover with Triple D as the only thing i can figure that could mess LM up is the inhale wind. Kirby could do it, i suppose, if you don't mind copying his slow charge move or just feeding LM his own medicine. I can't comment on Rosaluma, i'm still very sour on her being in instead of Ice Climbers.

My opinion is that anybody with projectiles could make LMers rage. My Link amiibo boomerangs the life out of me after he "matures" to me using him.

Aaand, i don't play online, i can barely play Splatoon without losing hairs, so if my submission to this discussion is again a miss, ignore it completely. I apologize as well, i'm very socially ignorant, but i have to at least try.
 
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