The Punching Bag- Little Mac Whine/Defense Thread

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LCC Son-in-Law

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So as most of us know, users are constantly creating new threads in the Little Mac Boards to complain about the character. Be it his K.O. punch mechanics, he's broken, he's unfair, his design is stupid, he should be nerfed, many feel the need to create a new thread when they want to complain about him.
On the other hand, some users also seem to feel the need to make constant threads regarding how he is NOT op.

Regardless of which opinion is correct, constantly making new threads to discuss the topic is not the answer. It causes more important threads to become buried in the rubble that is Mac Rant Threads.

Please feel free to use this thread to discuss your thoughts on Little Mac; How broken, op, or stupid Little Mac is and how he should be changed, or how solid and not an op character he is, and how he should not be changed.
 
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Nammy12

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Seems like the Rosalina boards could use something like this too. :awesome:
The only problem I have is that he hits like a f**king truck with his smashes especially considering how fast they are.
And the fact that ALL of them have armour.

I get salty when they land a K.O. punch but I know that it was my fault so I don't have a problem with that.
 

actual_ian

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I believe I shall make my debut by complaining about Little Mac. Literally, I lose every single time I go up against a Little Mac main, online or local, and I seriously can't take it anymore. I main Lucina and every single time I try to grab them, it's almost like they can see the future like Shulk. They roll dodge so much, and Lucina's grab doesn't have a whole lot of range, plus I'm not very good at pivot grabbing. It doesn't even matter, because in the rare times I do get them in the air, I can never gimp them because they always know the exact moment I'm about to f-air, so no matter how erratically I try to move, they air dodge and recover. Last, but certainly not least, I can never counter properly, which is something I rely on to break free from combos, as well as an offensive tactic in the rare moment when I know exactly when they're going to attack. The reason for this is because he hits like a bullet and I can't react fast enough. What's worse is when I shield, perfect or not, I'm supposed to be able to hit or grab him after his attack. He's the only character that I can't do this to because he has almost no recovery lag after his attacks, so he roll dodges right in the nick of time. That's pretty much my spiel, but to finish, I'm tired of seeing him so low on tier lists and other people defending him by only arguing how horrible he is in the air. None of this justifies just how truly broken and devastating Little Mac is to me. He is literally so broken that I can't even enjoy playing Smash with friends because I know I can't possibly win because anyone who mains him is pretty much untouchable, no matter how much I damage him. Little Mac makes it hard for me to actually have fun. :(
 
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If the KO punch wasn't stronger than 90% of final smashes (meaning the percentage required to KO with the final punch is lower than the percentage required to KO with a final smash), I would have much less of a problem with it, but the fact that it can kill me after he jabs me once is extremely irritating.
 

TastyCarcass

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I'm going to say this now, I don't know how to deal with Little Mac on Final Destination.
If I approach, he uses a smash, which gives him super armour, so he wins.
I can't bait his smashes out and punish because they're too quick.

If I'm against an agressive Little Mac I can usually stand a chance, but I cannot beat a turtle
 

crashbfan

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Atleast, that's what my best friend Jacob Collins, says. What do you shay?
 

Filosafer

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I believe I shall make my debut by complaining about Little Mac. Literally, I lose every single time I go up against a Little Mac main, online or local, and I seriously can't take it anymore. I main Lucina and every single time I try to grab them, it's almost like they can see the future like Shulk. They roll dodge so much, and Lucina's grab doesn't have a whole lot of range, plus I'm not very good at pivot grabbing. It doesn't even matter, because in the rare times I do get them in the air, I can never gimp them because they always know the exact moment I'm about to f-air, so no matter how erratically I try to move, they air dodge and recover. Last, but certainly not least, I can never counter properly, which is something I rely on to break free from combos, as well as an offensive tactic in the rare moment when I know exactly when they're going to attack. The reason for this is because he hits like a bullet and I can't react fast enough. What's worse is when I shield, perfect or not, I'm supposed to be able to hit or grab him after his attack. He's the only character that I can't do this to because he has almost no recovery lag after his attacks, so he roll dodges right in the nick of time. That's pretty much my spiel, but to finish, I'm tired of seeing him so low on tier lists and other people defending him by only arguing how horrible he is in the air. None of this justifies just how truly broken and devastating Little Mac is to me. He is literally so broken that I can't even enjoy playing Smash with friends because I know I can't possibly win because anyone who mains him is pretty much untouchable, no matter how much I damage him. Little Mac makes it hard for me to actually have fun. :(
One of Little Mac's biggest weakness is grabs, so it's no surprise to hear that the ones you face dodge whenever they can. I usually get grabbed when I get hit into the air, and try to land. That's something I'm working on, but I haven't gotten the hang of it yet since they took out directional dodging. As for gimping, Little Mac has three options to get back. Up+B will only come out if they're somehow in a position below the ledge, and that rarely happens, as it wastes a jump. Neutral+B is hardly a viable option, only if you launch them toward the corner. Side+B is probably what they go for when you go to gimp. The trick is to SH fair (If they're not in range of a SH Fair, they're probably almost too far to recover) the Mac when you think he'd start the haymaker. If he dodges, Nair, then fullhop back. Either the Nair hits, and you gimped him, or it misses, and he's too far to recover. Of course, Macs may counter when they see you approach. This launches them forward, and tremendously helps their recovery. If you notice one do this, bait for it. They won't recover (unless they're high) from the whiff counter. I can't help you much with countering. A good Little Mac is mostly a punisher, and it's not a good punish if you can counter. And too many of his attack hit faster than the counter can come out, so it's better to Dair or some other equivalent to get away.
 

T0MMY

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I don't see how anyone could ever disagree with your best friend Jacob Collins.
 

CrossoverMan

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Little Mac is undeniably a blast to play as. Well, on the ground, at least. We all know that trying to use Mac like an air fighter is like trying to teach a mole how to pilot a submarine. Knocking opponents away with all those burly smash attacks is oh so satisfying. It's just like Doc Louis said in the trailer: PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH!

But that's the problem. Mac's moves are boring! Most of his moves look pretty much the same. He has like 6 uppercut attacks that look more or less identical. For the next Smash Bros game, I would prefer it if Sakurai included a different boxer with more unique moves. So I will do a quick countdown of my most wanted Punch-Out boxers for Smash Bros 5.... Or Smash Bros 6, technically (3DS and Wii U are different games, guys).

Doc Louis - Doc has all of Mac's moves, and then some. He can do star punches, uppercuts, body blows, the whole shebang. But he could also utilise some training equipment like his trademark bicycles, skipping ropes and of course, chocolate bars. He could have a move where he heals himself with a chocolate bar, but if he is interrupted, he could get a temporary power boost, just like how he does in the WiiWare Punch-Out game. His final smash could have him and Mac sparring with each other while 'accidentally' beating up the captured opponent as well.

Aran Ryan - In Punch-Out Wii, Aran Ryan is nuts, and if he appears in the next Smash Bros, his fighting style could reflect this. He could use head butts, overhead strikes, and his secret rope weapons that he uses in Title Defense mode. He could even have a move where he throws the referee at the opponent. His final smash could have him constantly belittle and taunt his opponents like how he does to Mac, before sneakily finishing them off with a seven hit combo.

Great Tiger - No brainer. Great Tiger has a really unusual and imaginative moveset in Punch-Out Wii, as he incorporates magical attacks and teleporting into his boxing technique. His main flaw is that his moves can be predicted by the blinking jewel on his head, and that could incorporate that into Smash Bros. He could also send out intangible clones of himself to trip opponents up. His final smash could be a massive magical tornado, like the one he uses just before he pulls off his ultimate attack in Punch-Out.
 

KingTeo

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Little mac is definitely fun. The fun is in trying to and those hundreds of punches while knowing that a good player will potentially throw you off the stage and gimp you the first chance they get. Playing him is playing those boss battles where you have the speed to dodge every attack the boss throws but one wrong move or slip up could lead to your death.

As for replacing Little Mac, the main character of his game with a supporting character from his game, well that's obviously a pretty bad idea.

I would love it if they didn't half ass his customs like most other people and instead gave him some of the signature moves from the people he fought since there's a lack of Punch Out representation.

Bald Bull charge for his Neutral B, Sandman's counter for his down B, Great Tiger's teleporting as a custom side B or down B.

372
 

STiCKYBULL3TZ

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I actually changed my main from Little Mac. He's my secondary character now. I'm not perfect and I don't like the feeling of having to play perfect to win. Once I get above 50% (less depending on the character I'm playing), I have the fear of losing a stock because I can be put off stage with a terrible (now worse) recovery to get me back
 

Ijuka

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I believe I shall make my debut by complaining about Little Mac. Literally, I lose every single time I go up against a Little Mac main, online or local, and I seriously can't take it anymore. I main Lucina and every single time I try to grab them, it's almost like they can see the future like Shulk. They roll dodge so much, and Lucina's grab doesn't have a whole lot of range, plus I'm not very good at pivot grabbing. It doesn't even matter, because in the rare times I do get them in the air, I can never gimp them because they always know the exact moment I'm about to f-air, so no matter how erratically I try to move, they air dodge and recover. Last, but certainly not least, I can never counter properly, which is something I rely on to break free from combos, as well as an offensive tactic in the rare moment when I know exactly when they're going to attack. The reason for this is because he hits like a bullet and I can't react fast enough. What's worse is when I shield, perfect or not, I'm supposed to be able to hit or grab him after his attack. He's the only character that I can't do this to because he has almost no recovery lag after his attacks, so he roll dodges right in the nick of time. That's pretty much my spiel, but to finish, I'm tired of seeing him so low on tier lists and other people defending him by only arguing how horrible he is in the air. None of this justifies just how truly broken and devastating Little Mac is to me. He is literally so broken that I can't even enjoy playing Smash with friends because I know I can't possibly win because anyone who mains him is pretty much untouchable, no matter how much I damage him. Little Mac makes it hard for me to actually have fun. :(
Pivot grabbing isn't even an advanced tech, how can you possibly not be good at it? the execution is about the same difficulty as performing a smash attack, just with grab and off a run.

Rolling is a problem in netplay with high-ish latency which is why For Glory etc. are a joke, but if you predict him to roll, you can punish the roll on reaction. Of course, that might open you up if they aren't rolling but that's an issue with rolls in this game being too strong and has nothing to do with Little Mac.

Shielding his fsmash is the obvious answer, no? It actually has enough lag for you to even run up and punish him if you act fast enough, at least with a character well suited for that(Lucina's not super fast). Another is just rolling behind him due to rolls being so strong. If you run up to him and then roll behind him as he smashes, you get a free punish. Same thing with step dodge. You can also counter it and deal tons of damage. It also isn't that fast, 16 frames is pretty slow(fsmash).

The rest of that just seems like you're a very predictable player and bad at mind games, so I'd work on that. If you know that you cannot punish him and if you always seem to be late and they always roll, how about you see which way they tend to roll and then, for example, dash attack through them to hit the roll back or charge fsmash behind you to hit the roll behind you? You need to take risks in netplay because latency is stupid. I can assure you that little mac players especially online and especially ones who spam roll cannot read minds, they almost always autopilot.

Little Mac's ftilt and smashes are all punishable after shielding them, you need to become better.

The best way to counter little mac is to just get him off the edge and edgeguard him, you get many tries as he cannot even sweetspot with his up B. You can easily cover the side B and hit him with a bair or something when he tries to up B and then he needs to tech. Even if he's at like 10% the horizontal knockback from that alone is enough to make sure that he's not coming back.
 

actual_ian

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Well, I've been improving against other Little Mac mains and I'm starting to win with Greninja, and once in a while I'll pull it off with Lucina. What I've been doing is getting close and tricking him into air dodging, and then f-airing. I've also figured out a highly situational way to gimp him and sometimes outright KO him. I steal the edge from him, then I let go by flicking the circle pad and immediately short hopping. Then I do a b-air and he's done, unless he air dodges. I am very rarely able to pull it off, though, and I'm sure everyone else knows about it already.
 

Tobi_Whatever

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ZSSamus main here. It's fun to play against good Mac's but it's hard to get used to the matchup because Mac just works very different.
My only problem with Lil Mac is 1on1 FG. I meet Mac players pretty often and 99% of them are ****. This results in the most unspectacular fight ever. All I have to do is camp the ledge, shoot my stun gun, grab, backthrow and the fight is basically over.
 

1FC0

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i have been owning nubs on fg 1v1 with lil mac cuz them nubs sukk
so today i was playing fg 1v1 and we both had only 1 stock left and i had ko pauwnch and he was moving very predictably near the edge so i tought "lets ko pauwnch dis suckah" so i ran towards him and wanted to sh -> b but i accidentally used b> instead and jumped off the edge
but i also hit him with the b> and he goes flying like the suckah he is
so he goes to the edge while i fall to the pit
but he dies first and im all leik "lol nub got serveeeeeeddddd"

tru story i kid u not
 

Smashfan61

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Personally this is what I think of Little Mac. I'm not going to go out and whine and say "OHHH HE"S CHEAP! WAHH HE"S BROKEN!!" I just find it a waste of time to whine about a character. But however I can say this, I think people do have a right to be annoyed at Little Mac.
Now here me out, I'm not trying to say he's broken or anything, what I'm getting at is his ground game has ridiculous priorities. I do think people overeact when they say "HE NEEDS TO BE NERFED!!!" Because Little Mac's moveset is what makes him unique like the others and the KO meter thing is his own feature. But what I agree with is how annoying he really is.

People can say "He's easy to gimp, weak to throws etc" Now I do agree with this and have used those to punish him before. But the thing is he moves so fast and his move has almost no punish after using them because of the super armor (which I find annoying honestly, even rage worthy_) Because I've grabbed him before and even so getting past his annoying Jab and Smash attacks is a chore with the damage output and super armor. Especially if the Little Mac is aware of the throws and can easily trap you with his Down Smash or Jab. Also he has a counter and Counter characters are all so annoying! Seriously I can't stand counters I just find them cheap honestly. But what makes Little Mac's frustrating is the fact he can attack so fast and can spam it almost instantly after a smash attack or whatever that you can attack him thinking he'll be open and then he abuses it in the most annoying way ever. His Counter is just so rage worthy. Even trying to throw him after he misses a Counter is bad. Because it completely misses. Little Mac's counter is the most annoying to me. At least I can punish others when the **** up a counter! And he can just use a Simple Jab into KO punch, I find that Ridiculous!!! It's not the KO meter I hate, It's how easy to trap someone in that I do hate.

Since he's completely relying on ground game Little Mac's moves are too powerful and his moves are spammable. It's not like a typical spammy move where it's just one predictable object or move coming at you to easily punish it, Little Mac's move are so spammy its easily abused. In contrast with a simple predictable move, that is extremely annoying! Especially if you use Close range fighters who have to get up close!!!! >_>

Also the stage layout favors Little Mac's playstyle, another reason why he shouldn't be nerfed. I just think his super armor needs to have a limit or at least make it last quickly to where you can punish him easily.

I am aware of the noobish Little Mac's who Side B offstage, but people who are even good with him can just abuse him. While I agree it isn't their fault, it's just the fact Little Mac is too abuse worthy. Personally his Super Armor is the main reason I find him annoying.

Overall Little Mac is a very annoying character to fight in my opinion. But I would not go as far as to say he's cheap or OP. He's just annoying, everyone has one annoying matchup here or there. But I do think people overreact to him. I find him annoying yes, but not to where I would whine.

Although I must say I do find it fun to spike Little Mac's when knocking them offstage. XD
 
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sirchadakiss18

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i have been owning nubs on fg 1v1 with lil mac cuz them nubs sukk
so today i was playing fg 1v1 and we both had only 1 stock left and i had ko pauwnch and he was moving very predictably near the edge so i tought "lets ko pauwnch dis suckah" so i ran towards him and wanted to sh -> b but i accidentally used b> instead and jumped off the edge
but i also hit him with the b> and he goes flying like the suckah he is
so he goes to the edge while i fall to the pit
but he dies first and im all leik "lol nub got serveeeeeeddddd"

tru story i kid u not
Funniest thing Ive read in awhile
 

Kluft

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My only complaint I have with little Mac is the way the K.O Punch is implemented since it fills up faster if you take damage.

I would have preferred it to fill up faster if you deal damage and lose meter if you get hit (exeption being super armor).

It lead to people playing little mac more like he does in Punch-out.
 

meleebrawler

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My only complaint I have with little Mac is the way the K.O Punch is implemented since it fills up faster if you take damage.

I would have preferred it to fill up faster if you deal damage and lose meter if you get hit (exeption being super armor).

It lead to people playing little mac more like he does in Punch-out.
With how easily Mac falls off the stage, taking damage on
purpose is a really dumb idea as Mac.

Your way of filling it would likely result in even more
dumb aggro play from rookies trying to get the punch, whereas
more careful players would almost never get to use it since
human opponents don't follow set patterns like the opponents in Punch-Out!!

Little Mac actually does play like in his game, he can't
just throw punches at his opponent to win, he needs to play
smart and wait for an opening, then strike hard and fast before
backing off and repeating the process.

The meter filling from damage taken can be seen as
a way of rewarding the Mac player for not falling off the stage.
 

Kluft

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With how easily Mac falls off the stage, taking damage on
purpose is a really dumb idea as Mac.
I never said he should take damage on purpose, I rather meant he should gain meter by getting hit only if super armor is used.

Your way of filling it would likely result in even more
dumb aggro play from rookies trying to get the punch,
Thats why I said he should lose some meter if he gets hit.
A rookie will most likely get hit, lose meter in the process, and get thrown offstage
(except if he does it himself with his Side-B).

whereas more careful players would almost never get to use it since
human opponents don't follow set patterns like the opponents in Punch-Out!!
Actually humans tend to act in pattern in certain situations, like shielding on jumps,etc. but thats not important.

As a short reminder Little Mac in Smash 4 gets his K.O Punch if he took around 100% damage from hits, and he needs to deal around 333% damage to get it from attacks alone. that atleast how it currently works based from the Q&A Thread.
http://smashboards.com/threads/docs-tips-a-little-mac-q-a-thread.368617/

A careful player would focus on avoiding damage and slowly build up the K.O Punch
(that atleast how I intended it to work).

Little Mac actually does play like in his game, he can't
just throw punches at his opponent to win, he needs to play
smart and wait for an opening, then strike hard and fast before
backing off and repeating the process.
I know he plays like a real boxer, thats why my only complaint about him was the K.O Meter, it isnt really faithful to Punch-out!

The meter filling from damage taken can be seen as
a way of rewarding the Mac player for not falling off the stage.
Sadly it also rewards Litttle mac for getting hit, which makes it easier for him to fall of the stage, which is something you generally want to avoid. It also contradicts with what you said earlier.
 

meleebrawler

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Considering bad Little Macs will probably die
before they even get access to their punch, being
able to get a punch in this game shows that you can
deal a good amount of hits and survive well.

Can you name a single fighting game sporting a super
meter that has it drain when you get hit, outside of special circumstances?

If they did, you would almost never see super moves
used in a match unless one person is dominating, at which
point they probably didn't even need the supers in the first place.

I suppose just having the meter fill from attacks
and nothing else could work... but then how would
less experienced players ever experience the punch
against better players? Remember Smash's target
audience.
 

Kluft

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Considering bad Little Macs will probably die
before they even get access to their punch, being
able to get a punch in this game shows that you can
deal a good amount of hits and survive well.
Most characters in smash 4 can get K.Oed at about 100%+ range (exception being heavyweights of course).because of this most little Mac players usually get access to the K.O punch, it does kind of work like lucario aura (except it only gives you 1.Try to Insta-K.O your opponent).

Can you name a single fighting game sporting a super
meter that has it drain when you get hit, outside of special circumstances?

If they did, you would almost never see super moves
used in a match unless one person is dominating, at which
point they probably didn't even need the supers in the first place.

I suppose just having the meter fill from attacks
and nothing else could work... but then how would
less experienced players ever experience the punch
against better players? Remember Smash's target
audience.
I thought about it and I agree with you on that the meter should only fill if Little Mac deals damage and not decrease if he takes damage
(except losing a stock of course).

Most people usually play with others who have about the same skill level,
and remember Little Mac would only have to deal 100% Damage to get the Punch (Most of his attack ignoring the aerials deal around 10%)
wich shouldn't be too hard.
 

lolreconlol

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I HATE everything about Little Mac. I can't beat any of them. Why the **** would they ever put this thing in the game?
 

Conn1496

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The way you beat Little Mac in my experience is to pretty much punish and then edge-game him. He's got a solid, somewhat OP strength, but if you fall to it, that's your own fault. He's far too straightforward and predictable for it to be anyone but your own fault for falling to him. I have no problem with Mac, even the dash attack addicted, spammy ones aren't invulnerable to a good punish. His faults more than outweigh his strengths, but it's solely the fact that he can brute force an entire game that makes him viable.

...All that being said, I absoloutely loathe Little Mac anyway, because he's just no fun to fight against or as. I see no reason for him to be removed, I just see no reason for his role to be how it is either.
 

Zethoro

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I absoloutely loathe Little Mac anyway, because he's just no fun to fight against or as.
I'll agree with that second part, in some cases.
My problem's not that he's not fun to play as. No, he's much like I imagined he'd be when I was still theorizing about him being in Smash.
No, my problem is how FG people try to fight him...and I use the word try because unless they're a very proficient smasher (someone who would beat you into the floor even if they didn't do it), they either lose patience or fail miserably.
It's just really annoying as a LM secondary how people think they can just stand at the edge and wait LM out. When people do this, it causes one of a number of things:
1. The LM loses his patience and essentially gives a free stock (I have a high patience threshold, so I don't have this, but it happens to many.)
2. The person on the ledge loses their patience and decides to actually fight.
3. Time-Out.

None of these options sound, or are, appealing.
Even really, really uneducated players, who wouldn't change their playstyle for any other character, immediately do this for Mac, and except in rare cases where you find someone who either doesn't know, or realizes it's stupid, it causes a long, extremely boring match. This is what I hate about Little Mac. Since I love Punch-Out! and I love Mac, I will continue to play him. (He also covers all of Robin's bad stages.) However, it's easily what irks me about Mac the most, and if I see someone doing it I either decide to wait them out (I don't start with LM so I usually only do this if they're good), or I suicide so I can switch to a different character so I can beat them into a pulp for doing that.
Literally, to explain, I just had this earlier. I was fighting this guy with ROB earlier and they were really intense matches, so I knew he was pretty good, or at the very least slightly above my level. So, I decided to switch to Mac. What do they do? This guy (playing Mario), immediately camps the ledge. I wait a bit, then eventally just decide to charge and see what he does. Sure enough. Grab. Throw. Fludd to gimp. Dead at 10%. I just suicided the next stock. We went on a bit and I used Mac again. He camps. Again. I wait for a good two minutes, and he finally decides to actually fight me. What happens? He beats my face into the floor anyway. I can accept that win. That's fine. He beat me fair and square. Sure, it wasn't as much of a curbstomp but he still was only about 40% on his 2nd stock. No big deal, still had quite a bit to go. More importantly, this proved that that strategy is worthless, boring, and frankly really stupid. It's a waste of time and sanity, and frankly it makes using Mac in FG a pain.
So please, anyone reading this. Stop, for both of our sakes. Let the guy who's using LM use LM and have fun. LM isn't even OP. He's definitely not as good as Diddy if you're going to rage about a character (and even then I don't think Diddy is rageworthy). Just stop, please.
Curse you, FG. Curse you for only having Omega Stages. This is why we have ledge camping and LMs can't have fun.
 
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Darklink401

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I'll agree with that second part, in some cases.
My problem's not that he's not fun to play as. No, he's much like I imagined he'd be when I was still theorizing about him being in Smash.
No, my problem is how FG people try to fight him...and I use the word try because unless they're a very proficient smasher (someone who would beat you into the floor even if they didn't do it), they either lose patience or fail miserably.
It's just really annoying as a LM secondary how people think they can just stand at the edge and wait LM out. When people do this, it causes one of a number of things:
1. The LM loses his patience and essentially gives a free stock (I have a high patience threshold, so I don't have this, but it happens to many.)
2. The person on the ledge loses their patience and decides to actually fight.
3. Time-Out.

None of these options sound, or are, appealing.
Even really, really uneducated players, who wouldn't change their playstyle for any other character, immediately do this for Mac, and except in rare cases where you find someone who either doesn't know, or realizes it's stupid, it causes a long, extremely boring match. This is what I hate about Little Mac. Since I love Punch-Out! and I love Mac, I will continue to play him. (He also covers all of Robin's bad stages.) However, it's easily what irks me about Mac the most, and if I see someone doing it I either decide to wait them out (I don't start with LM so I usually only do this if they're good), or I suicide so I can switch to a different character so I can beat them into a pulp for doing that.
Literally, to explain, I just had this earlier. I was fighting this guy with ROB earlier and they were really intense matches, so I knew he was pretty good, or at the very least slightly above my level. So, I decided to switch to Mac. What do they do? This guy (playing Mario), immediately camps the ledge. I wait a bit, then eventally just decide to charge and see what he does. Sure enough. Grab. Throw. Fludd to gimp. Dead at 10%. I just suicided the next stock. We went on a bit and I used Mac again. He camps. Again. I wait for a good two minutes, and he finally decides to actually fight me. What happens? He beats my face into the floor anyway. I can accept that win. That's fine. He beat me fair and square. Sure, it wasn't as much of a curbstomp but he still was only about 40% on his 2nd stock. No big deal, still had quite a bit to go. More importantly, this proved that that strategy is worthless, boring, and frankly really stupid. It's a waste of time and sanity, and frankly it makes using Mac in FG a pain.
So please, anyone reading this. Stop, for both of our sakes. Let the guy who's using LM use LM and have fun. LM isn't even OP. He's definitely not as good as Diddy if you're going to rage about a character (and even then I don't think Diddy is rageworthy). Just stop, please.
Curse you, FG. Curse you for only having Omega Stages. This is why we have ledge camping and LMs can't have fun.
I have never agreed more with a post.

Like...Lm is one of my secondaries, and everyone in FG thinks they could just beat him by ledge camping. And most of the time I beat their face, because they're expecting a side B SD. Little Mac has limited options, but its how exaggerated his existing options are, that make him a threat.

He's severely underestimated AND overestimated at once. it's actually kind of surreal.
 

Zethoro

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I have never agreed more with a post.

Like...Lm is one of my secondaries, and everyone in FG thinks they could just beat him by ledge camping. And most of the time I beat their face, because they're expecting a side B SD. Little Mac has limited options, but its how exaggerated his existing options are, that make him a threat.

He's severely underestimated AND overestimated at once. it's actually kind of surreal.
That's actually the most accurate description of people's reaction to Lm I've ever seen. It's sad, true, and frustrating.
 

Darklink401

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I was playing against my friend, and she outright refused to fight back for a bit, because she says she hates fighting Little Macs, since she feels sorry for them XD

I wanna just get good enough with Little Mac to be able to show he's a good character, as he deserves. kid tries hard.
 

Kirby Phelps (PK)

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It seems like people either think Little Mac's incredibly cheap and OP or they think he's pathetic. The only people who'd think he's a decent, fun, and unique character are actual Little Mac players. And as a Punch-Out fan and Mac secondary player, that makes me very sad. :(
 

Darklink401

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It seems like people either think Little Mac's incredibly cheap and OP or they think he's pathetic. The only people who'd think he's a decent, fun, and unique character are actual Little Mac players. And as a Punch-Out fan and Mac secondary player, that makes me very sad. :(
True enough.

But trust me, Little Mac will get the respect he deserves soon enough.


Actually I think most people are over LM being OP, most just pity Little Mac. I want to get good with LM just enough to be able to make someone think "wow, he's actually pretty good"
 

qwfwfq

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I recently got into a debate with my roommates that LM was cheap. Of course, this argument was spurred after I became the apartment 1on1 champion using LM. They say that he's just too quick and powerful. Now, I'm pretty uneducated when it comes to Smash; I've only been playing for a short period of time, but I've come to the conclusion, so far, that LM really isn't that cheap. (Not just because I like playing as him!) I feel like he leaves himself open in a lot of his hand-to-hand combat, and most of his game is hand-to-hand. And yes, I've experienced many players online who edge camp and DESTROY me. I've got a long ways to go before I become "skilled" in Smash. I also think it's bull**** when people claim a character is cheap. I think every character has an exploit and to call a character cheap is a lame excuse for not being able to capitalize against a particular character's play style. (I'm still on the fence about Diddy-he seems surprisingly powerful to me).

What is everyone's thoughts on cheapness in LM? I'd be curious why some of the more skilled players think LM is a cheap player.
 

TheSourDough

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This board is like 99% john's. 1), his K.O punch has the same kill power as Ness's Up B (when he becomes a missile) and Ness's Up B isn't every 100%, you can use it whenever, and it also acts as a recovery. Complaining about the K.O punch is stupid. 2) Lil Mac has arguably the most bad match up's in this game, or damn close. 3) he is kill able at any damage, permitted the opponent is capable of gimps, good grabs, and punishes. What I'm saying is, I feel like a lot of people are losing to the player more than the character. I play a good Mac, a PATIENT Mac, which is where the danger lies. Characters like Megaman who can zone him and abuse lemons on him, use his amazing grab to get him off stage and his (best Back air in the game) to keep him off it destroy Lil mac's. There's a plethora of options when fighting Lil Mac, a lot of people don't understand this, and they ignore the fact that If your getting beat by any old Lil Mac's, it's more likely you're a bad player, which can be fixed my getting better at reads, spacing, learning you're character, learning Lil Mac, etc etc etc. Good Lil Mac players exist but are rare. If you are getting stomped by the Pubstomper Mac's out there you just simply need to get better.
 

Funkermonster

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I hate to be a downer, but somehow I personally can't see Mac being any higher than the dead center of mid tier and I'm kind of scared of his competitive future. I love Punch Out!!! and Mac is one of Nintendo's coolest characters, but I don't love him enough to ever use him in a competitive setting and he seems like a very niche character who can do well in some matchups, but might need a secondary for many others. The problem with his design, imo, is that he lacks versatility. I mean, there's only so much you can do with a character who wants to stay grounded for the majority of the fight, and a lot of things about the game seem to easily work against him and render him a very difficult character to play.
  • His weak air game. Having a poor recovery and a weak double jump; Aerials all lack range, deal very little damage & knockback, and have pretty nasty landing lag. With his very poor aerial game, Little Mac has like almost half of a moveset and generally has fewer options in the neutral than a lot of other characters do. And on a lot of stages besides FD, people can camp on platforms and abuse this against him, and his only options against this seem to be Rising Uppercut (which is incredibly unsafe) and Uair (which is very weak and easy to shield), neither of which are enough to eliminate this issue. And when landing back on the ground, his only viable option is Counter, which is very unsafe and easily read. His aerials aren't completely useless though, each one (except Dair, haven't found any use for it) has its own situational purposes: Nair comes out really fast and can be used in its infamous footstool gimps and death combo on certain characters, Fair and Bair can autocancel and knock opponents back onto the ground so Mac can be in his comfort zone again (plus Fair can combo into Jab), and his Uair can poke people on platforms and is a safer option at said task than his UpB. He can fight in the air situationally, but I still think it hurts him quite a bit.
  • For someone who's supposed to have a demonic ground game, I'd expect him to have a better grab and/or set of throws. While still being weak to being grabbed himself, his own grab has got to be one of the shortest-ranged ones in the game and rather tough to land. And even if he does get a grab, he doesn't really seem to have any spectacular throws that can kill or combo into anything. Probably the only real hole in his ground game though.
  • IGNORE THIS POST IF YOU CONSIDER CUSTOM MOVES, ONLY REFERS TO DEFAULT! Has a situational set of special moves, forgive me if I'm wrong but from my view his specials don't really seem to be very reliable in the neutral game. Jolt Haymaker is very risky and the only time it'd be used is when you're sure its going to hit, and even on low percents its still unsafe on hit, like what the hell? Aerial version travels a short distance and makes a poor recovery that's very easy to gimp, and even if you aren't gimped you'll suffer lots of lag if you land on the ground, and your opponent can just throw you offstage again. Rising Uppercut makes a great OoS and has tremendous KO power when grounded, a few frames of invulnerability, and his only good option against platform camping aside from Uair. Still has lots of cooldown and leaves you vulnerable though, and Aerial version though still sucks for similar reasons as Jolt Haymakers: Poor recovery distance, loss of power, and doesn't sweetspot the ledge. Slip Counter has a damage multiplier of 1.3, more active frames than some other counters, and can help aid his otherwise bad recovery if you know your opponent's going to attack you offstage, arguably one of the best counters in the game and a fairly good move all around. Counters in general though, are highly situational and ultimately risky. But about the Special that bugs me most of all:
  • Straight Lunge, what were they thinking with this? Easily one of the crappiest specials in the game I have ever seen, Little Mac might as well not even have a NeutralB. This move is telegraphed when charging up, you can't store it's charge & save it for later, its easily jumped over, has massive cooldown if fully charged, and is overall near impossible to land against a good opponent. I dunno what's worse: This or :4palutena:'s Heavenly Light. I'll admit, there are quite a few other characters in the game with a special move almost completely useless too: :4kirby:'s Final Cutter, :4falcon:'s Falcon Punch, :4ganondorf:'s Up Tilt (Warlock Punch too), :4shulk:'s Back Slash, :4ness:'s PK Flash, and possibly a few other's I'm missing. But unlike these guys, Little Mac already has like half a moveset with his weak aerials, and this move takes yet another part of his moveset away.



But then again, this all from my perspective. I'm not the best player around and I could always be wrong, and I really hope I am wrong. If anybody can prove me wrong, please do so so I can quit my worrying and have more faith in this character. But from my view, Little Mac looks to have quite a few polarizing matchups with a very technical playstyle: A few mistakes and you're done for, and a lot of characters seem to have a lot of ways to make him go for mistakes. For the love of God though, please buff his grab and straight lunge.
 

DaVe^

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Here's my issue. Little Mac's recovery system is totally bogus. I'm getting tired of having to do an Up B for recovery. Furthermore, the Up B only helps if you're slightly off the stage, and even then may not even work. The point I'm trying to make here is. well, do you think Little Mac's Counter, Recovery, Down B, etc. Could of been done better? Honestly, at this point, Falco and Fox seem to be way better than Little Mac..... and the funny thing is, Falco is the furthest DOWN on the tier list. I'm ashamed about Little Mac. So, I want to hear what you think the Creators can do to make Little Mac a better character on the roster. :4littlemac::4littlemac::4littlemac::urg:
 
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Thundering TNT

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Aug 17, 2014
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66
Seems fine to me. Sure, he dies early, but you are just so strong on the stage. Once you get controll, GG. Also, his recovery is improved by his wall jump. It honestly shocks me that he has one. Customs help with recovery too.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Yes, I do think he could have been done better. Most of his moves have fantastic applications and attributes. Lots of super armor, some frame 1 invulnerability, extremely quick IASA frames, etc.

What irks me about Mac's design is his lack of edgeguarding options. Like any character he has a footstool (a bad idea to meet an opponent offstage) and he can ledgetrump (a much better idea, but still invites counter play when the opponent realizes that's all you can do). The only character Little Mac can really edgeguard is another little mac. Fair is good because of the knockback angle. Dair is a joke. The hitbox is about as tiny as one of Mega Man's buster shots, and you need to be directly on top of the opponent. Not slightly to the left or to the right. When you do hit with it, it's absolutely the weakest meteor in the game. It won't even have the spike sound. The only thing dair is good for is initiating a jab lock combo, and that's something I doubt the designers even considered should be possible for the attack.

Really, I think everything about Mac is satisfactory or even great, but that dair is wow bad.
 

Tino

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I believe Little Mac is fine as he is. I mean really, he's like an incoming train when on the ground and his super armor really gets everyone by surprise. I can understand why he has such an embarrassing air game with an embarrasing recovery but that doesn't mean we should hold back because of it.
 
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