Meta The Psychic Log: Mewtwo's Metagame Discussion

[Sonicninja115]

Mewtwo's Psychic Log

The Metagame thread is for everything Metagame related. Please discuss Phasing, AT's, Strategies, Tactics, Moves and more here. Bring your findings and theories here as well. I will be updating the OP so that it has up to date information, but I am currently updating the guide, so it might take a week.

Spoiler: Editing

The State of Mewtwo's Metagame: An Unbiased as Possible Review

Part 1: The Past​

Mewtwo has lead a troubled life in the Smash games. Starting off in Melee, he currently sits at 21st on the tier list, and has no potential to go higher. His November reveal as DLC for Smash 4 brought hope for the fans of the Psychic Pokemon, only to have it dashed by the mixed reviews upon release. His downsides were prominent, while his upsides were obscure. Mewtwo's lack of throw combos, mediocre frame data, large hurtbox and light weight easily overcame the upsides in his recovery and kill confirms.

For awhile, it seemed that all hope was lost.

​

 

[Sonicninja115]

Phasing Discussion:

Spoiler: 3/24/16

Thanks Sonic! Here's a repost of my thoughts/tricks from my thread


I haven't seen much discussion of this around the forums, but I use Mewtwo's air dodge a lot -- primarily not for dodging, so I wanted to dedicate a thread to it's approach/mind game usage, and also how to use it for ridiculous punishes. It's a ridiculous move, active on frame 2, first active frame 29, and due to mewtwo's floatiness he can do whatever he wants out of it.

The best part of Mewtwo's air-dodge is the opponent can't actually tell where you're going when you do it. You can sh-air dodge, forward, backwards -- up and then di in one direction, and the opponent will have no idea where you're going to pop up, leaving them to guess.

This sets up a great mixup for you. If you are in mid-range, given Mewtwo's aerial mobility -- you can mix up the following ways:

• Don't move forward much, spaced fair. This beats most attempts to try and "swat you" or punish the air dodge as long as you're not close.
• Go for a close/spaced u-air, which leads into lots of combos at low percents(it's almost like down-tilt)
• Air-dodge into/through the enemy, out of air-dodge nair. The height you come out of the short time is exactly the right height to get a 2-hit nair. If you fast fall this nair immediately after the second, you will get the nair + Up-Smash combo no matter how they pop out. You can also consistently get any tilt to true combo from at lower percents, including d-tilt and its many follow ups.
• If you've conditioned a shield, then just drift in/place or back and use confusion -- or use nair and then immediately grab.

It gets even better though, because...

• This 2-hit nair is insanely safe. If they shield it you can instantly grab/spot-dodge when you hit the ground, basically no one can punish you even if they block it do to how much you drift and the cross-up (some characters with ultra fast jabs might be able to if you go too deep, but it's hard). Even if you whiff it they pretty much can't punish it.
• This means the only way to get hit is if they correctly read your position and hit your during the five frames between the end of your invincibility and your faf at 29. This is possible but not easy, especially for some characters -- and requires them to guess where you went during your jump.

This is not totally safe, though I find it extremely useful both for getting damage and getting kills. Do beware of certain situations like Cloud in limit, who can use finishing touch and punish the air-dodge no matter where you are. Still, you can bait this by drifting backwards.

Mewtwo's air-dodge also comes out on frame 2. Frame freaking 2. You can do it out of a jump nearly as fast as you can shield by rolling from jump to shield. Using this to dodge is no harder than spot dodging, and the rewards are just ridiculous. Essentially any move you can sh-air-dodge instead of shield can get you a perfect 2-hit nair, which as mentioned above, is a free up-smash, or a free d-tilt + follow-up depending on percents>

You can punish a lot of moves this way. Mewtwo's FAF out of his air-dodge is 29, and his nair comes out on frame 6 (fair is one frame faster), so that 's 35/34 frames to drift to and land the nair since you have to do it right out of the air-dodge.

This will punish pretty much all successfully dodged grab or smash attacks, and a large number of slower tilts/specials at a range where you couldn't do so otherwise. In reality you can get this even more often because even the best players won't react perfectly every time.

Phasing... is a great mixup. Between rising fair and airdodge fair, most characters cant cover both. And, if something goes awry, you can drift away. Phase uair is a solid combo starter. I like to mix in full hop AD, since they cant tell you've done this until you reappear, and you can drop a dair or nair on them, nair especially if they do something like rising fair to attempt to stuff your fair (since theyre used to fair).

I really like it in MUs where fair will miss a grounded opponent. Empty airdodges also are great. Mewtwo has one of, if not the, best airdodges

@KillerJawz

My Thoughts:

Mewtwo's airdodge is amazing. Sporting the best FAF and invincibility, as well as a 2 frame start-up, invisibility, and the it has the unique trait of allowing you to move when buffered out of hitstun. All this together makes for a great airdodge. The icing on the cake, is that 4 of Mewtwo's aerials will come out before he hits the ground. Thus, Mewtwo can do crazy and rather broken things with Phasing.

Here is the situation. Mewtwo is standing about a Phase away from the opponent. Mewtwo can either approach, or retreat with Phasing.

B: retreat. Mewtwo Phases backwards, causes the opponent to shield for no reason and feel rather stupid while Mewtwo gets half of an SB charge for free.

A: Approach. Mewtwo Phases forward, at this point he can either, Nair (RAR), Fair, Uair or Grab.

A, B and C all go the same way, the opponent shields it or gets hit. (BTW, a spaced Fair cannot be Shieldgrabbed) On hit, Mewtwo gets an easy 20% or even a stock. On whiff, Mewtwo is in a slight Disadvantage unless he crossed-up with Nair or spaced Fair.

D is where things get interesting. If the opponent decides that you are going to approach and attack, then you can mix-up your options and empty hop grab him instead. Garnering Stage-control as well as 13/12%, or killing the opponent.

Needless to say, this is pretty good for Mewtwo. There are downsides, Marios Nair and it's ilk are rather good at stuffing Phasing, and some players could get enough MU knowledge to have the timing down for a near frame perfect punish, but there are mix-ups for this too. fake-outs and such.​

Nair in Neutral:

Spoiler: 04/07/16

@KillerJawz Nair for mewtwo is a really unique tool. it has several different uses and these uses differ depending on the zones you're controlling, as well as match ups, stages and other things. the move itself has no place in neutral. and most of the time abadango attempted to 'approach' with this move, he gained literally nothing, and was frequently anti aired. watch void/mars vs abadango and you can see how often his nairs got stuffed for using them too far away.

when you're directly next to someone however, nair becomes an incredible move, but not just because of what it does, but because of what mewtwo can do in this situation. if the opponent's back is to you and yours is to them, but you're really close to eachother, you obviously can't bair (you wouldn't anyway), so nair can cover them, provided you gets yours out first.

aba always dashes into a zone where he's just outside of dtilt range so he can apply direct pressure with several moves, nair included. the reason this is so strong is because it's a constant hitbox that doesn't require any specific timing, as the move refreshes itself really quickly. if he uses it outside of this zone when an opponent has an answer ready, he gets punished (as he did many many times).

nair is a strong tool for mewtwo. it covers ledge beautifully if you time it correctly, it combos into many moves, can be used to set up a foostool combo, is safe on block, can cross up, does good damage and can pressure platforms among even more things i haven't listed, but you cannot and should not use this move to dart across the air. the hitboxes are still tiny, even after the changes, you will STILL lose to everything that comes your way, you will still lose trades, that didn't change.

Shadowball:

Spoiler: 04/10/16

My super-secret shadowball technique is to SH backwards and time the release so that it leaves just before I land (for a nice bit of defensive recoil momentum further backward) but this has an interesting result relating to the overall camera perspective - it zooms out to compensate during the SH (as long as the opponent does not move towards me) but does so a little too slowly so the shadowball launch startup animation is partially offscreen.

It makes it harder for my victim to see it coming... Its cheese, but sometimes a little cheese is nice as long as there is also some hardy bread and butter to go with it.

Alright, I'm going to talk about Shadowball, since there are some big misconceptions about the move.

Just because you have a reflector, bucket, cape, or pocket doesn't mean you nullify the moves uses entirely. Though Mewtwo may dislike reflectors and rather not have to deal with them, it doesn't mean it loses all it's uses. It's still a good neutral tool regardless.

Alright, let me set up a scenario:

A Villager is within kill percent of my Shadow ball. How many ways can I kill him with Shadow ball?

• Villager misses a ground tech, I cover his getup options with Shadow Ball. He dies.
• I read a roll or standing getup option off the ledge. He dies.
• The Villager whiff a grounded option, such as grab, smash attack, or tilt. I retaliate with a Shadow Ball. He dies.
• Villager launches a lloid rocket. I reflect it back and follow it up with a Shadow Ball. Villager accidentally shield both and breaks his shield. I go for the disrespect and stun him with a Disable and charge another shadow ball and throw it at him. He dies.
• I catch him off guard and throw it at him while offstage instead of going for average things like a Fair or Bair. He doesnt react fast enough. He dies.
• I bait out the pocket and then fire the Shadow Ball. He misses it. He dies.
• I throw it out at point blank because YOLO! He dies.

Just for reference, I've tried all of these on actual villager main's and have worked. Villager can avoidable of these options, but that's the point. It doesn't matter whether or not the Shadowball hits, it's about if he has the shadow ball. Villager may be able to stop a shadow ball, but he can't stop a Mewtwo from charging shadow ball. Not only does he have to use a move that literally had no other offensive uses other wise, and has to taken in to account all the scenarios I stated. At that point, Mission Complete! The psychological effect of Shadow Ball has taken its course, which is just as valuable, if not more, than the fact that Shadow Ball kills people pretty early.

If you still disagree, think of it this way: Do you think Villager, Game and Watch, Falco, and others have anything better to do than sit there and use a reflector? Of course they do! Villager could be planting a tree, firing a lloid rocket or a sling shot. Game and Watch would like to get in a grab for some bread and butter down throw combos. Falco would like to..... do whatever the heck Falco likes to do. All I know is spamming reflector is not on the top of his to do list in neutral.

What actual matters if you can stop him from charging. Sheik's needles and falcon's speed plus dangerous dash grab combos made Charging shadow ball kind of risky. It's also why the needles nerf is a big deal in that matchup.

Basically this is why falcon is perceived as losing, but villager is considered even (for now )

This rant was triggered by GnW main who said he hard counter Mewtwo because of bucket btw.

SHADOWBALL

You all know my thoughts on this

http://smashboards.com/threads/shadowball-guide-lots-of-gfys-90-complete.413774/

I still believe that many top level Mewtwo mains are not using shadowball optimally, throwing it out in neutral, not charging one up regularly and really nerfing themselves. For a comparison, we are seeing significantly more nair-bair follow ups than we used to as players are getting better at predicting which direction the enemy will pop out of. This is an example of optimal play that a year ago, barely existed.

There must (and will) be a period of time when Mewtwo mains really focus on FCSB to reliably hit with it more often. Maybe it will be later in the year, maybe its tomorrow, it will happen though as what I see clearly the biggest room for optimal Mewtwo play.

If anyone watched Abadango 2-1 over K9 yesterday, you would see this. His SB use was plain bad. Constantly firing it from neutral with no chance of hitting. Abadango is normally REALLY good with shadowball but he really didn't use it properly in that set. K9 jumps around so much, all Abadango had to do was wait for Sheik to DJ and try to hit her landing with it. If he did this, K9 would likely bouncing fish towards Mewtwo which is basically a free upsmash.

People keep using shadow ball like some mid-range harassing tool in the same way as Water Shuriken and Boomerang. Yes it has its uses like that, but it should be treated more like Charge Shot because of its massive fear factor.

Also when on battlefield he should have tried to fire FCSB through the platform to catch shieks landing. Like I show here

http://gfycat.com/HatefulAnguishedCottonmouth

I wish I saw this more often from Mewtwo mains. Its not too hard to do.

Following the whole using shadow ball more like charge shot line of thought, I really love it for its high damage. Obviously this is great for reflector battles, since m2 can manipulate those greatly to his favor. But its also great for its shield pressure. I like to use it to end a pressure moment. Like I engage the opponent, dtilt his shield. I SHAD, to avoid his counterpoke. After this, I fair. and she shields it. Then I just fire a FCSB. Either shield break, or Shadow Ball hit, are very likely. Time it to make dodges difficult.


That said, the actual charge is very useful. It both threatens approaches, and encourages them (this is a devastating combo for a neutral game, especially when paired with a reflector!). It can slow your double jump ascension, and generally forces a crazy amount of respect. These factors increase as it charges, so it of course is in your benefit to charge whenever possible.

But, maybe stopping at 80% charge is a better option in neutral, sometimes. Since then, you can throw an almost-as-powerful shadow ball at a moment's notice, or charge it while they shield the shadow ball that isn't coming.

Also, its considerably harder to powershield the variable charge shadow balls, which means only good things since a powershielded FCSB really sucks, since you basically wasted your charge.



Anyways, I love shadow ball offstage a lot. Its a mixup for fair for me. I jump off at them, and swing a fair. Once this baits enough airdodoges, jumping out and firing a point blank shadow ball can kill them ridiculously early.

Getting knocked high offstage from grounded it is totally possible (though risky) to go from zero to FCSB as you fall, then AD DJ Teleport back to the ledge. I mainly charge my shadowballs offstage nowadays. Sometimes the opponent comes out to try and interrupt but I release it mid-strength into their faces or AD>DJ>BAir.

Stopping the charge before it gets to be full is nice, since launching it is quicker from the charging animation, and so when you want a quick release, double tap B. Depending on your timing when you stopped the charge, you can sometimes get the fully charged ping notification just before a timely launch which is really satisfying.



ooo... I never thought about using it as an AD punish. recovery spoiler, sure, but going point blank purple surprise would be a great mixup with FAir. Ill try that later tonight

SH off stage while facing backwards - FCSB into the ledge to catch people with invincible upbs is legit as the ONLY way to stop these recoveries.

Corrin is an example of one. You cant dair corrin no matter how much you want to, you have 0 edgeguarding options vs that upb. Falling off and doing a bair for a stagespike kind of sets you up to get hit by the upb, SB avoids that. The timing to hit them with it is strict, but it can be done.

Yes it isnt too hard to tech, but its up to 26% that you wouldnt have gotten otherwise.

I'd like to mention for that summary that FCSB is a good edge guarding tool too, especially for linear recoveries like the spacie's. You can also cover get up options.

I don't think Abadango really janked his opponents. (FS disable is friggin' hard to do!) Was there MU ignorance for his opponents? I guess so, but that Void set is really telling, considering they made the best solo sheik main (with experience) to switch to a secondary he never needed till then.

I'm kind of the opinion that Mewtwo will eventually become a staple high tier similar to I think he has the staying power to remain relevant, as long as a patch nerfs him, which I doubt.

My Thoughts:
Mini Shadowball, Half-Charged Shadowball or Full-Charged Shadowball?

Advantages for Mini SB:
Mini SB is great for frame traps, comboing into Grab, and abusing the 50 frame no ledge grab window. Mini SB covers your approach, and allows you to safely retreat as well. Mini SB also allows you more movement options, in the form of Wave SB and B-Reverse SB.

Disadvantages for Mini SB:
Mini SB doesn't kill, can't stuff approaches and only does 3%.

Advantages for HC SB:
HC SB allows Mewtwo to still have limited access to B-reverse movement, and have a 18% projectile with some killing potential. It is also easy to charge into it's full charged form and doesn't show the opponent how charged it is.

Disadvantages for HC SB:
None really. Sorta a middle-grounds.It has some of the disadvantages of Mini, and some of FC. However, it has some of the advantages of Mini, and of FC.

Advantages for FC SB:
Kills stupidly early, does 26%, travels fast, pressures the opponent, catches techs and rolls, insane shield damage. It has a lot going for it.

Disadvantages for FC SB:
It takes approximately ?? seconds to charge, in which you usually have to give up stage control or advantage to get. Cannot frame trap as well, and shows the opponent that you have it full-charged through his glowing hands.

Consensus:
They are all good, but IMO, it is best to HC, and then get the FC through movement and such. Mini's are great for frame trapping and edge-guarding, but HC has a ton of uses and can easily and quickly be charged into FC, or released to get a mini SB. Consensus: HC when possible, otherwise, Mini's work great.

Did Abadango deserve his win?

Spoiler: Discussion

Matchup inexperience is absolutely NOT a valid excuse for a top level player, in anything.

If you haven't practiced at all versus a certain character and you lose, then you have no right to call yourself a top level player by using that as an excuse. Do you think high level boxers/MMA fighters complain about inexperience vs a certain fighting style if they lose a fight? Of course not, its up to them to study the opponents matches beforehand. Failure to do so is no excuse.

Also people seem to forget that Abadango has a history of beating top level players including nairo and dabuz before pound. Him outplacing them should have been expected. In the past he has only been a few close hits away from grand finals in any other major tournament.

Abadango won because of his skill and he proved he can do it with Pac-man and Wario, other mid tiers in the past. It would seem that he just needed a better character in order to win those few extra matches. I suspect his low placing at genesis was more to do with that he never switched his playstyle as metaknight and he ran into people who were prepared to play so lame against him, things he had probably never seen before with literally running the timer on him, never approaching etc. Thats not really common in japan. Nothing to do with matchup inexperience, more so playstyle inexperience.

 

[meleebrawler]

If you can master b-reversing, fully charged shadow ball can become an unorthodox but surprisingly useful movement tool, especially in contrast to the invincible but comparatively high-endlag teleport.

I'd also put movement option as a use for confusion, it's a pretty big staple option there for many.

As far as Mewtwo's disadvantage state I don't find it that terrible in spite of Mewtwo's aerials being mediocre for landing and his big tumble thanks to his decent airspeed coupled with his myriad of movement options. It's only fast characters that give him significant trouble landing, in which case resetting to the ledge may be the best option if you can't get a read on their options.

Dsmash works best as hard read or area denial thanks to it's low endlag, use it if people try to bait you into stuff.
Fsmash is a bit similar but is used to space due to the sweetspot location, as well as Mewtwo rearing back during startup possibly letting him avoid an attack.

Edit: Not off to a very quick start, are we? Anyway, more thoughts...

Concerning his playstyle, it seems to heavily revolve around conditioning his opponent, in almost every situation, whether it's following up from things like following up from confusion or dthrow, plain old shadow ball mindgames or escaping disadvantage with the many movement options at his disposal. For this reason most Mewtwos will default to a defensive playstyle of spacing with dtilt and the like along with small shadow balls to try and discern opponent habits without putting themselves at unnecessary risk due to Mewtwo's fragility. Since most of Mewtwo's actions can be punished if you misread or the opponent reads you, it's up to the Mewtwo player that they don't get predictable.

In the event that Mewtwo wants to mount aggression, his main tool is crossing up with nair, coupled with small shadow balls that can potentially lead to grabs. Fully charged shadow ball recoil can also be a good way to surprise an opponent when on the offence thanks to the low endlag letting Mewtwo act quickly following it. Don't overuse it though.

More move-specific thoughts:

Uair has pretty good horizontal range so Mewtwo can often outspace attempts to contest it. It also makes it very difficult to punish if it whiffs.

Ftilt is mostly just a panic button used to attempt to get an opponent out of Mewtwo's face, but it can also be used as a low commitment followup for dthrow and confusion at low percents and can hit hanging opponents when angled down.

 

[meleebrawler]

As far as gimping goes, there's a lot Mewtwo can do. He can throw shadow balls, however strong to restrict horizontal recoveries. Nair can be used to great effect against poor recoveries to gimp or cause easy damage against those who lack hitboxes. Shadow Claw is useful as always if you can surprise them or punish. Bair of course has a nice large hitbox to use, and is fairly good at punishing airdodges with good timing. Depending on the character you're facing and their percentage you can sometimes string several together in a wall-of-pain like sequence.

Finally there's his dair which is for the most part your typical meteor dair. Though one should not hesitate to use it if a golden opportunity comes offstage or on. Short-hop dairs can be a useful surprise attack on tall characters as well.

Mewtwo can go very, very deep to either the side or bottom blast zones to edgeguard so make sure to take full advantage of this when a gimp opportunity comes along. However if you go low to edgeguard and miss, be careful not to get footstooled out of your midair jump. It's key for his vertical recovery.

 

[Sonicninja115]

As far as gimping goes, there's a lot Mewtwo can do. He can throw shadow balls, however strong to restrict horizontal recoveries. Nair can be used to great effect against poor recoveries to gimp or cause easy damage against those who lack hitboxes. Shadow Claw is useful as always if you can surprise them or punish. Bair of course has a nice large hitbox to use, and is fairly good at punishing airdodges with good timing. Depending on the character you're facing and their percentage you can sometimes string several together in a wall-of-pain like sequence.

Finally there's his dair which is for the most part your typical meteor dair. Though one should not hesitate to use it if a golden opportunity comes offstage or on. Short-hop dairs can be a useful surprise attack on tall characters as well.

Mewtwo can go very, very deep to either the side or bottom blast zones to edgeguard so make sure to take full advantage of this when a gimp opportunity comes along. However if you go low to edgeguard and miss, be careful not to get footstooled out of your midair jump. It's key for his vertical recovery.

That is a very good gimping guide! I will add it to the OP and tweek it a bit and add a bit more. But thanks! Also, wouldn't it be better to side b away if you miss your edge guard, to lessen the chance of a footstool?

 

[Metallinatus]

Nair can be used to great effect against poor recoveries to gimp or cause easy damage against those who lack hitboxes.

Poor recoveries? I gimped a freaking Bowser Jr. just yesterday with it!
The "pull down" function of Nair can gimp almost anyone, specially if he already used all his jumps....

 

[meleebrawler]

That is a very good gimping guide! I will add it to the OP and tweek it a bit and add a bit more. But thanks! Also, wouldn't it be better to side b away if you miss your edge guard, to lessen the chance of a footstool?

Confusion doesn't help much when recovering vertically, it has too much endlag. But then, getting sniped out of his second jump is only really an issue if he's below the stage, since otherwise all his other options should be enough to get back without it. It's still something you need to be wary of though; his second jump is the bulk of his vertical recovery.

Poor recoveries? I gimped a freaking Bowser Jr. just yesterday with it!
The "pull down" function of Nair can gimp almost anyone, specially if he already used all his jumps....

Jr.'s recovery isn't exactly stellar, he has good mixup potential with the kart if he can recover high but otherwise isn't really anything special. Though you do have a point, the only recoveries I could see being impossible to gimp this way are stuff like Villager's, or Zelda.

Though now I'm curious; is Mewtwo's nair one of those moves that hit Jr. out of his up b without letting him use it again (assuming you don't get the final hit)?

 

[Metallinatus]

Confusion doesn't help much when recovering vertically, it has too much endlag. But then, getting sniped out of his second jump is only really an issue if he's below the stage, since otherwise all his other options should be enough to get back without it. It's still something you need to be wary of though; his second jump is the bulk of his vertical recovery.



Jr.'s recovery isn't exactly stellar, he has good mixup potential with the kart if he can recover high but otherwise isn't really anything special. Though you do have a point, the only recoveries I could see being impossible to gimp this way are stuff like Villager's, or Zelda.

Though now I'm curious; is Mewtwo's nair one of those moves that hit Jr. out of his up b without letting him use it again (assuming you don't get the final hit)?

Good question.... I hit him before he used his Up B, so I don't know that.
I pulled him down from slight above the ledge level if I'm not mistaken to so deep that his Up B couldn't make it back.
And his Up B is not one of those ridiculous Up B that recovers from the blast zone, but it's still one of those that covers a lot of space vertically.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Confusion doesn't help much when recovering vertically, it has too much endlag. But then, getting sniped out of his second jump is only really an issue if he's below the stage, since otherwise all his other options should be enough to get back without it. It's still something you need to be wary of though; his second jump is the bulk of his vertical recovery.



Jr.'s recovery isn't exactly stellar, he has good mixup potential with the kart if he can recover high but otherwise isn't really anything special. Though you do have a point, the only recoveries I could see being impossible to gimp this way are stuff like Villager's, or Zelda.

Though now I'm curious; is Mewtwo's nair one of those moves that hit Jr. out of his up b without letting him use it again (assuming you don't get the final hit)?

Jr's recovery would probably depend on his Up B requiring damage or KB. Also, Villager know has a depleting mechanic like ROB which means that the second time he uses it in a certain span, it is considerably shorter, and the third is basically a short hop.

 

[Metallinatus]

Oh, I just remembered of one thing that I had the idea of doing some time ago (if no one else did already) but it would be kinda difficult without a second player:
Dead Man Volley.... a list of how many times you can reflect a reflected FC Shadow Ball before it can't be reflected anymore.
Like, with Fox's reflector, how many times could Confusion reflect it back before one of the moves can't reflect it anymore? And who would win the volley in the match up? Then with Palutena's reflector? Who would win? If she wins, then how many times could you reflect it before Confusion fails?
Do you get the idea?

Yeah, I am bad at explaining stuff....​

 

[Karsticles]

Oh, I just remembered of one thing that I had the idea of doing some time ago (if no one else did already) but it would be kinda difficult without a second player:
Dead Man Volley.... a list of how many times you can reflect a reflected FC Shadow Ball before it can't be reflected anymore.
Like, with Fox's reflector, how many times could Confusion reflect it back before one of the moves can't reflect it anymore? And who would win the volley in the match up? Then with Palutena's reflector? Who would win? If she wins, then how many times could you reflect it before Confusion fails?
Do you get the idea?

Yeah, I am bad at explaining stuff....​

If you look through the moveset thread, I did all the work on this already. The short version is that you can reflect until Shadow Ball passes a certain % value. For most characters, they can't reflect anything higher than 50% damage. A fresh Shadow Ball vs. Fox will get reflected by Fox Reflector, reflected by Confusion, and is then un-reflectable, and will KO Fox at 0%. If Shadow Ball isn't fresh, then Fox will get 1 more Reflect in, and Mewtwo can't reflect it anymore (and he'll get 1-shot). Past the fresh Shadow Ball, Mewtwo can mitigate this issue by only charging Shadow Ball 3/4 of the way. This will keep its power low enough for a second reflect from Mewtwo, and Fox won't be able to reflect it a third time.

The same rule holds true for most characters. Additional complications arise in that Confusion can reflect Shadow Ball twice during its active frames if an opponent is really close, and if both characters have reflects with long active frames (Zelda, Fox, Palutena, etc.) then Shadow Ball will ping-pong at an incredibly fast rate before 1-shotting someone (in my experience, it's ALWAYS Mewtwo's opponent; I hypothesized why in my previous post).

Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think nair is pretty good for edgeguards. Especially vs recovery without hitboxes. Vs some characters it can be really dirty like Falcon.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I think nair is pretty good for edgeguards. Especially vs recovery without hitboxes. Vs some characters it can be really dirty like Falcon.

I actually got a kill with Nair the other day, I drew my opponent so close to the border that the KB killed him. It was hilarious... He was not happy...

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Tiny to medium size shadow balls are really good. Against slower characters like Ganon, you can camp with them pretty easily. You can also use to assist in getting a grab like Luigi's Fireball.

 

[meleebrawler]

@ Browny thoughts...

Literally the perfect mentality. No other character in the game has the unique combination of a high power projectile, reflector, command grab and a long-range poke. The only anti-approach tool Mewtwo doesnt have is a counter. In fact only one character has 3 of these in ROB. All of those options Mewtwo possesses can defeat almost every approach in the game.

That matters because so many characters in this game are completely bullied by other characters who have really safe approaches or options they can throw out with little risk. Think of ZSS, her nair is pretty much broken and many characters in this game have no answer to it when used as an approach. If you dont have a fast, long range fair you cant do anything about it. Mewtwo has not one but two answers to that in shadowball and confusion. Further to this, if ZSS mixes up her approach and goes for a dashgrab, paralyser, sideb or dash attack, Mewtwo rules out all of those options with shadowball and confusion.

Yes it requires a pre-emptive move and is risky, but the point is Mewtwo two options to cover her array of approaches, many characters have 0.

I was watching Mr.R vs Ally today, the first 2 matches where he went Ryu and I think it showed this perfectly. With Mr.R at about 140% and Ally at 70%, you witness how Mario has literally no safe options to do anything about Ryu walking forward. A contender for top 5 in the game, a consistent tournament threat used by one of the best players in the world had nothing he could do to Ryu that Ryu couldnt instantly kill him for, and it showed.

People talk about 'neutral game' but none of that matters if you cant actually do anything safe, or stop the opponent from doing anything safe. Because whoever is unsafe dies, and Mewtwo is a super hard punisher.

In that situation for example, Mewtwo has the tools in Shadowball and dtilt to safely keep Ryu out and confusion to reflect hadouken. Meanwhile marios fireballs were eaten by hadouken and jab, getting near Ryu meant invincible upb into death and Ryu just walked closer and closer, pushing Mario offstage with hadoukens until he gets nervous and gets near Ryu and dies.

Mewtwo is not limited like Mario is in this situation, and there are countless others where Mewtwo is quite safe and can space around and poke while other characters lose.

The ability to use Mewtwos tools at the highest effectiveness is the skill people need to develop and choosing the right one for the right situation.

 

[Metallinatus]

If you look through the moveset thread, I did all the work on this already. The short version is that you can reflect until Shadow Ball passes a certain % value. For most characters, they can't reflect anything higher than 50% damage. A fresh Shadow Ball vs. Fox will get reflected by Fox Reflector, reflected by Confusion, and is then un-reflectable, and will KO Fox at 0%. If Shadow Ball isn't fresh, then Fox will get 1 more Reflect in, and Mewtwo can't reflect it anymore (and he'll get 1-shot). Past the fresh Shadow Ball, Mewtwo can mitigate this issue by only charging Shadow Ball 3/4 of the way. This will keep its power low enough for a second reflect from Mewtwo, and Fox won't be able to reflect it a third time.

The same rule holds true for most characters. Additional complications arise in that Confusion can reflect Shadow Ball twice during its active frames if an opponent is really close, and if both characters have reflects with long active frames (Zelda, Fox, Palutena, etc.) then Shadow Ball will ping-pong at an incredibly fast rate before 1-shotting someone (in my experience, it's ALWAYS Mewtwo's opponent; I hypothesized why in my previous post).

Let me know if you have any questions.

Sorry for the late reply and thanks for the explanation, knowing that really helps!
But I thought that different reflectors would have some different results since they have different limits to how much damage they can sustain....
Learning more each day

 

[Sonicninja115]

@ Browny thoughts...

Do other people agree with this? I am thinking of adding an anti-approach/approach section.

 

[Mechaglacier]

The Skype group has found some more jab lock moves reverse bair shadow ball cancel similar to F.L.U.D.D. cancel and how we can disable under a platform

 

[Karsticles]

Sorry for the late reply and thanks for the explanation, knowing that really helps!
But I thought that different reflectors would have some different results since they have different limits to how much damage they can sustain....
Learning more each day

Most reflectors break at around 50%. Ness' bat breaks at ~80%, and Megaman's Skull Barrier custom breaks at 25%.

Do other people agree with this? I am thinking of adding an anti-approach/approach section.

It's ridiculously optimistic. Fast characters approach us just fine; we don't have the tools to stop it.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Most reflectors break at around 50%. Ness' bat breaks at ~80%, and Megaman's Skull Barrier custom breaks at 25%.


It's ridiculously optimistic. Fast characters approach us just fine; we don't have the tools to stop it.

I agree that it is optimistic, but they are anti-approach options nonetheless. Confusion is the one I have a slight beef with, I don't think it could stop ZSS's Nair, and disable or ftilt is probably a better option for anti-approach, or Utilt.

The Skype group has found some more jab lock moves reverse bair shadow ball cancel similar to F.L.U.D.D. cancel and how we can disable under a platform

So Bair sends them to the ground in tumbling and then you B-reverse shadowball to jab-lock? Am I getting that right? that is a good set-up, I will have to practice it tomorrow.

And what is up with disabling underneath a platform? is it DJC Disable?

It's good that we are getting discussion findings so soon!

 

[Mechaglacier]

no tip of bair can jab lock itself but the set up you described is possible and disable apparently stuns the opponent when touching their feet it can be done with short hop or DJC disable

 

[Browny]

I agree that it is optimistic, but they are anti-approach options nonetheless. Confusion is the one I have a slight beef with, I don't think it could stop ZSS's Nair, and disable or ftilt is probably a better option for anti-approach, or Utilt.

Just test it... confusion easily outranges her nair

And the point is if ZSS changes her mind and decides to do another approach instead of nair, the confusion can cover some of them as well while disable most certainly doesnt. ftilt is ok to beat dashgrab or dash attack, but it doesnt beat a dashing-shield or paralyser while confusion beats all of them.

Its optimistic because too many people are focusing on complaining about bad hitboxes, instead of focusing on what it takes to win. Mewtwo has very solid anti-approach tools, more than ANYONE in the game and none of those suffer from missing hitboxes.

If you just let the enemy get in for free really often you're going to lose hard with mewtwo, he has an answer to almost everything, use them correctly and suddenly he cant be touched.

No one ever said it was easy, but it is possible.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Just test it... confusion easily outranges her nair

And the point is if ZSS changes her mind and decides to do another approach instead of nair, the confusion can cover some of them as well while disable most certainly doesnt. ftilt is ok to beat dashgrab or dash attack, but it doesnt beat a dashing-shield or paralyser while confusion beats all of them.

Its optimistic because too many people are focusing on complaining about bad hitboxes, instead of focusing on what it takes to win. Mewtwo has very solid anti-approach tools, more than ANYONE in the game and none of those suffer from missing hitboxes.

If you just let the enemy get in for free really often you're going to lose hard with mewtwo, he has an answer to almost everything, use them correctly and suddenly he cant be touched.

No one ever said it was easy, but it is possible.

Oh, woops. I was thinking of the back hit of nair. Thanks for the clarification. My problem with confusion is just it's startup and endlag. It can definetly be used as an AA tool though. I will look into incorporating that into my playstyle.

How long does Confusion's pick up and twirl hitbox last? as long as the reflector?

What bad hitboxes? Confusion has pretty awesome hitboxes, sure it comes out late, but it lasts longer then most would think. And shadowball is just OP...

 

[meleebrawler]

Oh, woops. I was thinking of the back hit of nair. Thanks for the clarification. My problem with confusion is just it's startup and endlag. It can definetly be used as an AA tool though. I will look into incorporating that into my playstyle.

How long does Confusion's pick up and twirl hitbox last? as long as the reflector?

What bad hitboxes? Confusion has pretty awesome hitboxes, sure it comes out late, but it lasts longer then most would think. And shadowball is just OP...

The reflect frames are much longer than the grab frames, and the area it can reflect projectiles in is actually bigger than the circle that appears.

Confusion's big hitbox is why I'm not bothered much by Mewtwo having a short normal grab.

Another move thought: considering how high bair can hit, how good is it against jump-ins or empty jump baits?

 

[Sonicninja115]

The reflect frames are much longer than the grab frames, and the area it can reflect projectiles in is actually bigger than the circle that appears.

Confusion's big hitbox is why I'm not bothered much by Mewtwo having a short normal grab.

Another move thought: considering how high bair can hit, how good is it against jump-ins or empty jump baits?

I have used it for that purpose before, the only problem is how slow Bair works. I have also fallen off a platform on BF and been able to hit people on the ground with Bair. Sorry I haven't been able to updat the OP yet. I'll try to start on that today.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

More thoughts on Shadow ball.

This move is easily the most versatile projectile in the game. Tiny / medium sized Shadow Balls are very good for applying pressure on the opponent, forcing them to shield or Jump, which Mewtwo can take advantage of by either hitting the opponent with one of his aerials, or getting a free grab / dash attack. Essentially they are like Luigi's fireballs that come out slower, but deal more damage and have more range. Like I said in my previous post, camping with these is very effective and is a large part of Mewtwo's neutral game against slower characters.

Fully charged Shadow ball aren't as good as uncharged ones imo since its faster + has a lot more recoil, meaning Mewtwo can't punish the opponent for Shielding / jump as well as it could if it was using medium / uncharged shadow balls. That isn't to say the move is bad, however. Its pretty good for trapping opponent's landings and the recoil is useful for recovery / deep edge guards. I think I'll have to lab its uses a bit more.

 

[Browny]

Fully charged Shadow ball aren't as good as uncharged ones imo since its faster + has a lot more recoil, meaning Mewtwo can't punish the opponent for Shielding / jump as well as it could if it was using medium / uncharged shadow balls. That isn't to say the move is bad, however. Its pretty good for trapping opponent's landings and the recoil is useful for recovery / deep edge guards. I think I'll have to lab its uses a bit more.

Read this

http://smashboards.com/threads/shadowball-guide-lots-of-gfys-90-complete.413774/

Full Charges primary use shouldn't be to trap landings or recovery (although trapping landings is very good), its primary use should be to beat approaches or punishing projectile use. It is far easier to land when doing that and cuts down the enemies options.

 

[meleebrawler]

Read this

http://smashboards.com/threads/shadowball-guide-lots-of-gfys-90-complete.413774/

Full Charges primary use shouldn't be to trap landings or recovery (although trapping landings is very good), its primary use should be to beat approaches or punishing projectile use. It is far easily to land when doing that and cuts down the enemies options.

I can't count the number of times I've Confusioned over my opponent's head, followed by them trying to chase me, only to get a shadow ball to the face.

Though I kind of disagree that full charge is always more useful. Depending on your opponent and the stage sometimes it is simply too difficult to reliably get one ready. Thus you use baby shadow balls, which travel slower, to control and slow down their movements. Then there's the situational use of baiting some absorption moves like Oil Panic, Gravitational Pull and Pocket...

And of course, using nearly fully charged balls can be a much bigger surprise than full, especially if you used a few of those already.

 

[Sonicninja115]

If you can master b-reversing, fully charged shadow ball can become an unorthodox but surprisingly useful movement tool, especially in contrast to the invincible but comparatively high-endlag teleport.

I'd also put movement option as a use for confusion, it's a pretty big staple option there for many.

As far as Mewtwo's disadvantage state I don't find it that terrible in spite of Mewtwo's aerials being mediocre for landing and his big tumble thanks to his decent airspeed coupled with his myriad of movement options. It's only fast characters that give him significant trouble landing, in which case resetting to the ledge may be the best option if you can't get a read on their options.

Dsmash works best as hard read or area denial thanks to it's low endlag, use it if people try to bait you into stuff.
Fsmash is a bit similar but is used to space due to the sweetspot location, as well as Mewtwo rearing back during startup possibly letting him avoid an attack.

Edit: Not off to a very quick start, are we? Anyway, more thoughts...

Concerning his playstyle, it seems to heavily revolve around conditioning his opponent, in almost every situation, whether it's following up from things like following up from confusion or dthrow, plain old shadow ball mindgames or escaping disadvantage with the many movement options at his disposal. For this reason most Mewtwos will default to a defensive playstyle of spacing with dtilt and the like along with small shadow balls to try and discern opponent habits without putting themselves at unnecessary risk due to Mewtwo's fragility. Since most of Mewtwo's actions can be punished if you misread or the opponent reads you, it's up to the Mewtwo player that they don't get predictable.

In the event that Mewtwo wants to mount aggression, his main tool is crossing up with nair, coupled with small shadow balls that can potentially lead to grabs. Fully charged shadow ball recoil can also be a good way to surprise an opponent when on the offence thanks to the low endlag letting Mewtwo act quickly following it. Don't overuse it though.

More move-specific thoughts:

Uair has pretty good horizontal range so Mewtwo can often outspace attempts to contest it. It also makes it very difficult to punish if it whiffs.

Ftilt is mostly just a panic button used to attempt to get an opponent out of Mewtwo's face, but it can also be used as a low commitment followup for dthrow and confusion at low percents and can hit hanging opponents when angled down.

In regards to playstyle, I was more referring to just how to play Mewtwo in a certain style. I will definitely include that Defensive is the best strategy, but I want to have an analysis on each of the playstyles.

 

[meleebrawler]

In regards to playstyle, I was more referring to just how to play Mewtwo in a certain style. I will definitely include that Defensive is the best strategy, but I want to have an analysis on each of the playstyles.

The thing about playing "aggressively" with Mewtwo is that he still wants to keep a bit of distance so that he can space his moves properly. While he can get some of his biggest rewards up close with sweetspot dtilt and jab, you definitely do not want to stay there longer than necessary since many characters can hit faster than him there. This is why nair is a staple move for him here; by crossing up he can easily attempt to follow up on a hit or escape safely on a block or whiff (also an interesting tidbit about nair: the last hit has a surprising disjoint around Mewtwo). His relative aversion to extended periods of close combat is likely a large reason why his throws serve mainly to reposition rather than combo.

Edit: You know, for as slow as bair is, there's definitely something to be said about it's big, disjointed hitbox extending above Mewtwo when I feel pretty confident challenging Link's down thrust with it, something even Mario fears to do with his Usmash.

 

[Nobie]

I fought a Sonic yesterday on FG who absolutely reamed me for hours, but in the final hour I started to trade games with him. As with so many other matchups, Mewtwo has all the tools to win but it requires you to really understand your opponent. Here's what I learned:

1) Sonic punishes over-extension a LOT. Every single time you do anything that leaves you vulnerable, you're gonna get hit for it, and it's nasty as hell. You CAN go offensive in the matchup, but it requires you to have a solid defense as the fundamental core of your strategy.

2) You have to use pretty much every single tool in your arsenal, but there are certain key things to remember. Confusion is good at breaking through running shield. Down Smash is vastly better than Forward Smash because you can recover more quickly out of it.

3) Sonic's animations are extremely deceptive. Moments where you think he's vulnerable can be used to mask an effective whiff punish or other counterplay. The key to actually fighting Sonic is to make him exhaust his options. You need to keep track of every single B move he's used, so that you know what he can and can't do at any given moment. A Sonic who you've made use all of his B moves is a vulnerable Sonic and you need to get him before he can land and refresh all of his spins and springs.

 

[meleebrawler]

I fought a Sonic yesterday on FG who absolutely reamed me for hours, but in the final hour I started to trade games with him. As with so many other matchups, Mewtwo has all the tools to win but it requires you to really understand your opponent. Here's what I learned:

1) Sonic punishes over-extension a LOT. Every single time you do anything that leaves you vulnerable, you're gonna get hit for it, and it's nasty as hell. You CAN go offensive in the matchup, but it requires you to have a solid defense as the fundamental core of your strategy.

2) You have to use pretty much every single tool in your arsenal, but there are certain key things to remember. Confusion is good at breaking through running shield. Down Smash is vastly better than Forward Smash because you can recover more quickly out of it.

3) Sonic's animations are extremely deceptive. Moments where you think he's vulnerable can be used to mask an effective whiff punish or other counterplay. The key to actually fighting Sonic is to make him exhaust his options. You need to keep track of every single B move he's used, so that you know what he can and can't do at any given moment. A Sonic who you've made use all of his B moves is a vulnerable Sonic and you need to get him before he can land and refresh all of his spins and springs.

Between this and the Fox matchup thread up recently, it makes you wonder: are Mewtwo's top tier matchups REALLY that bad? I mean, obviously most of them are not in his favour, but it's starting to seem that it may not be the catastrophe most thought it to be early on. Mewtwo has a heavy-like ability to turn a match around or make huge strides with the right reads, but unlike them he has a versatile projectile, enough mobility to not get lamed out if he's at a deficit and a generally ungimpable recovery. When looking at it this way, it sure does seem an optimal Mewtwo has a better chance at high levels than characters like Ganondorf would.

 

[Browny]

That's precisely what the Japanese think about Mewtwo and that his ability to make and punish with reads is top tier. Of course every character can make hard reads, but Mewtwo just punishes so much harder than almost everyone.

 

[Sonicninja115]

That's precisely what the Japanese think about Mewtwo and that his ability to make and punish with reads is top tier. Of course every character can make hard reads, but Mewtwo just punishes so much harder than almost everyone.

I think that Mewtwo is sorta like Lucario Ironically, in the sense that both Mewtwo and Lucario have the possibility to win any match. Lucario with Aura and Mewtwo with punish games. I think Mewtwo could have a bit more fine tuning but other then that, too many buffs would make him OP.

 

[Nobie]

So I mentioned down smash being useful for fighting Sonic yesterday, but realized afterwards that there's a crucial component of the move that makes it extra effective: transcendent hitbox. It either trades or beats spin dashes if timed correctly, and combined with the quick recovery it becomes a crucial piece of the puzzle for narrowing down Sonic's options.

 

[meleebrawler]

So I mentioned down smash being useful for fighting Sonic yesterday, but realized afterwards that there's a crucial component of the move that makes it extra effective: intangibility. It either trades or beats spin dashes if timed correctly, and combined with the quick recovery it becomes a crucial piece of the puzzle for narrowing down Sonic's options.

I think the correct term is transcendent. Still, are you sure you've never ever seen it clank with anything?

With most of the recent posts being about Mewtwo's punish game, here's a list of the moves Mewtwo can use for this purpose and what they're used for!

Jab: Mewtwo's primary close combat tool, can setup for grabs and has the unique property of not making Mewtwo recoil when it clanks. Just don't use it at low percents on fastfallers.

Dtilt: Second-best close combat tool, good speed and generally the best punish at low percents.

Ftilt: Low commitment followup for Confusion and dthrow at low percents, standard-issue pivot move.

Dsmash: Used to pre-empt approach attempts, also good for catching reckless rolls. Between this and dtilt your opponent will have to be very careful to get in safely on Mewtwo.

Fsmash: The primary spacing punish. Marth getting too fair happy? Dodge it with the startup and retaliate.

Usmash: Punish tomahawks (empty jumps used to bait shields for grabs) and low-reach aerials. Or really, anytime the opponent is falling onto Mewtwo with no jumps left. It's that fast.

Utilt: The safer alternative to usmash. Use this against opponents who preserve their jumps, or floaties like Kirby with multiple.

Fair: Punish whiffs when Mewtwo is in the air, or just catch them off-guard with it's speed.

Bair: Challenge aerials, particularly when they're above Mewtwo.

Nair: Catch airdodges, early shielddroppers.

Confusion: Punish dash-to-shields, or aerials that autocancel.

Disable: Somewhat similar to fsmash, but done after a shield or letting the opponent whiff first. At higher percents, the best punish to a big mistake.

 

[Nobie]

I think the correct term is transcendent. Still, are you sure you've never ever seen it clank with anything?

With most of the recent posts being about Mewtwo's punish game, here's a list of the moves Mewtwo can use for this purpose and what they're used for!

Jab: Mewtwo's primary close combat tool, can setup for grabs and has the unique property of not making Mewtwo recoil when it clanks. Just don't use it at low percents on fastfallers.

Dtilt: Second-best close combat tool, good speed and generally the best punish at low percents.

Ftilt: Low commitment followup for Confusion and dthrow at low percents, standard-issue pivot move.

Dsmash: Used to pre-empt approach attempts, also good for catching reckless rolls. Between this and dtilt your opponent will have to be very careful to get in safely on Mewtwo.

Fsmash: The primary spacing punish. Marth getting too fair happy? Dodge it with the startup and retaliate.

Usmash: Punish tomahawks (empty jumps used to bait shields for grabs) and low-reach aerials. Or really, anytime the opponent is falling onto Mewtwo with no jumps left. It's that fast.

Utilt: The safer alternative to usmash. Use this against opponents who preserve their jumps, or floaties like Kirby with multiple.

Fair: Punish whiffs when Mewtwo is in the air, or just catch them off-guard with it's speed.

Bair: Challenge aerials, particularly when they're above Mewtwo.

Nair: Catch airdodges, early shielddroppers.

Confusion: Punish dash-to-shields, or aerials that autocancel.

Disable: Somewhat similar to fsmash, but done after a shield or letting the opponent whiff first. At higher percents, the best punish to a big mistake.

Yeah I meant transcendent. There's a big list of transcendent moves and it's on there but I've also never seen it clank. The purple part of the f smash is also transcendent but the hands can clank. The issue is that f smash has more recovery.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I think the correct term is transcendent. Still, are you sure you've never ever seen it clank with anything?

With most of the recent posts being about Mewtwo's punish game, here's a list of the moves Mewtwo can use for this purpose and what they're used for!

Jab: Mewtwo's primary close combat tool, can setup for grabs and has the unique property of not making Mewtwo recoil when it clanks. Just don't use it at low percents on fastfallers.

Dtilt: Second-best close combat tool, good speed and generally the best punish at low percents.

Ftilt: Low commitment followup for Confusion and dthrow at low percents, standard-issue pivot move.

Dsmash: Used to pre-empt approach attempts, also good for catching reckless rolls. Between this and dtilt your opponent will have to be very careful to get in safely on Mewtwo.

Fsmash: The primary spacing punish. Marth getting too fair happy? Dodge it with the startup and retaliate.

Usmash: Punish tomahawks (empty jumps used to bait shields for grabs) and low-reach aerials. Or really, anytime the opponent is falling onto Mewtwo with no jumps left. It's that fast.

Utilt: The safer alternative to usmash. Use this against opponents who preserve their jumps, or floaties like Kirby with multiple.

Fair: Punish whiffs when Mewtwo is in the air, or just catch them off-guard with it's speed.

Bair: Challenge aerials, particularly when they're above Mewtwo.

Nair: Catch airdodges, early shielddroppers.

Confusion: Punish dash-to-shields, or aerials that autocancel.

Disable: Somewhat similar to fsmash, but done after a shield or letting the opponent whiff first. At higher percents, the best punish to a big mistake.

I have the feeling the Punish spoiler is going to be a long one...

Can't Usmash even catch Shieks Fair? I have a feeling it will beat out most fairs except for a tipper Fair from Marth. Thanks for putting this down! I will go through it and add a bit more in the OP.

We can also discuss Punish options as well as the other two. I just want to at least get done with Playstyle or Movement options before adding another one.

 

[meleebrawler]

I have the feeling the Punish spoiler is going to be a long one...

Can't Usmash even catch Shieks Fair? I have a feeling it will beat out most fairs except for a tipper Fair from Marth. Thanks for putting this down! I will go through it and add a bit more in the OP.

We can also discuss Punish options as well as the other two. I just want to at least get done with Playstyle or Movement options before adding another one.

I think Sheik's fair has more range than Marth's. Even if usmash could catch it you'd have to be psychic (har har) to know exactly when she'll use it since it's just so fast and low in commitment. Probably best left to Confusion after a shield.

I've already discussed aggressive play for Mewtwo. It's basically a variant of stick and move. Approach your opponent, possibly throwing a small shadow ball beforehand to assist and launch a quick strike such as dtilt, a well-spaced dash attack or crossup nair. If it hits, capitalize as much as humanly and safely possible. If not, back off quickly before trying again.

Defensive is pretty straightforward. Take center stage when you can, either use smaller shadow balls to slow down their movement or keep a charged one ready and be ready to use the correct move to beat whatever approach they may try. If you're being pressured, use your mobility options to escape. All the while using the range on Mewtwo's moves such as dtilt to attack as safely as possible.

That long list of punish options is just a testament to why Mewtwo's punish game is so effective: he may not hit as hard on a per-hit basis as most heavies, but he has so many options that there's very little that he CAN'T punish. Oh, you can also add charged shadow balls to that list too, to beat out smaller projectiles, catch landings or just distant whiffs.

Mobility options are pretty much covered, except for the very basic (but effective) short-hop airdodge, as well as double-jump cancelling with specials. Shadow ball gives the best results there and probably goes hand in hand for what you already have there for it.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I think Sheik's fair has more range than Marth's. Even if usmash could catch it you'd have to be psychic (har har) to know exactly when she'll use it since it's just so fast and low in commitment. Probably best left to Confusion after a shield.

I've already discussed aggressive play for Mewtwo. It's basically a variant of stick and move. Approach your opponent, possibly throwing a small shadow ball beforehand to assist and launch a quick strike such as dtilt, a well-spaced dash attack or crossup nair. If it hits, capitalize as much as humanly and safely possible. If not, back off quickly before trying again.

Defensive is pretty straightforward. Take center stage when you can, either use smaller shadow balls to slow down their movement or keep a charged one ready and be ready to use the correct move to beat whatever approach they may try. If you're being pressured, use your mobility options to escape. All the while using the range on Mewtwo's moves such as dtilt to attack as safely as possible.

That long list of punish options is just a testament to why Mewtwo's punish game is so effective: he may not hit as hard on a per-hit basis as most heavies, but he has so many options that there's very little that he CAN'T punish. Oh, you can also add charged shadow balls to that list too, to beat out smaller projectiles, catch landings or just distant whiffs.

Mobility options are pretty much covered, except for the very basic (but effective) short-hop airdodge, as well as double-jump cancelling with specials. Shadow ball gives the best results there and probably goes hand in hand for what you already have there for it.

I will add your info as well as a few of my own thoughts to the OP, I just wish we had more people discussing the tings in the second OP... hmmm. I just want more input then 2 people. well, nothing in the OP is set in stone. What do you think of the areas I have filled in so far?