The problem of a 'Good Smasher' after watching pros fight it out.

[Transforce98]

This is something I wanted to share with here. I'm still new to the field around here, so if this doesn't fit in the thread, just let me know. Now on to the story.

I decided, over the summer to host Smash Tournaments. Eight friends agreed it would be great to do since we don't have much to do anyways. So, seven of them show up today, and it starts good. We set up the Wii U (because I'm a pleb and own the 3DS version only and don't own a Wii U) and get ready to play. I set myself in the first match, while another one of them volunteers to be the first opponent. Simple rules; Omega Platform, No items, five stock, and best two out of three. It comes time for the battle, I bring out my Toon Link and he comes in with Lucario. I think to myself that this would be a good match.

When it's time to fight, he says "Get ready to fight a good smasher." He then proceeds to roll in my direction. Now, this is where it clicked in my mind that I won't enjoy this. Mainy because my hand-eye coordination isn't as quick as the 'pros' but it can input a quick down smash. Fast forward to the end of the match, at high percents and late stocks, he kills me by, and I use this term loosely, spamming Aura Spheres. I could have easily just shielded them and approached by jumping over and doing an air attack onto him, but as soon as I landed I got hit. As I said before, I'm not the quickest when it comes to reacting, but I can be when I focus enough. He wins, and boasts that he's the better player already. I reminded him that we still have two more matches to play.

Game two is where he proclaims to use his 'Worst' character. So I humor him and use Little Mac, who is my best (flame me, I know). I catch him off-guard a couple times by delivering a Charged Standard Special to his face while he get's back onto the stage. Now it's HIS turn to call out spamming. To be honest, I was just keeping him off the stage the way Mac should, not off the stage. I ignore his comment and proceed to go back to fighting him as he's down by two. I do a tuck-and-roll behind him to deliver a side-tilt and he then comments again. "Oh, who's rolling now?" I'll admit, it kinda ticked me off, but I ignore it again and finish the fight by winning the match ahead of three stocks.

Final game is where I go back to Toon Link and he with Lucario. This is where I decide to break out a technique I learned by myself, or maybe it was out there and I never heard of it until I figured it out. My first kill on him included an edge guard, and all it required was me short-hopping and using Down Air to Spike him down below the stage. He then breaks out the "Edge Guarding is cheep" comment. I couldn't even at that moment, he poked at something that it fairly common for Smashers I've played against online. Correct me if I'm wrong, but edge guarding is where you punish your opponent for approaching the edge a certain way? I'm probably confusing that with something else, but regardless that was my thought on it.

I win the match in the end, and he fell for the same kill three times. He didn't really show any good sportsmanship after I beat him. I'll end this 'rant' of mine here shortly, but I just have a simple question for you guys out there. Is rolling a 'Good' thing to move across the field with? Is Edge Guarding cheep and spamable? Is it considered spam if you use it a limited amount of times in the match? How can someone not learn to just recover higher than go low when I just spiked him to his death twice before? I'm leaving with that, venting this dash of salt from early in the afternoon.

 

[FP-Takyon]

Nah he's just bad and a poor sport

rolling is really good in this game comparitively, but it's an awful approach and can be read easily with some minor experience. edge guarding isn't cheap, that's just him being salty because he didn't recover smartly and got punished accordingly.

there are rare exceptional situations to this, but rolling into your opponent is almost always the worst movement option, because the rhythm is predictable and a quick player will be sure to captalize on the frames of vulnerability. can't tell you how many mega uppers I've landed by people who roll in after falling down or even from shield.

 

[Transforce98]

Nah he's just bad and a poor sport

rolling is really good in this game comparitively, but it's an awful approach and can be read easily with some minor experience. edge guarding isn't cheap, that's just him being salty because he didn't recover smartly and got punished accordingly.

That's the way I saw it. Rolling isn't bad from what I know, it's just something you shouldn't do ALL the time.

 

[FP-Takyon]

That's the way I saw it. Rolling isn't bad from what I know, it's just something you shouldn't do ALL the time.

a key element to being good at smash is mixing it up. if you always recover from lying down the same way, or always come onto the stage the same way, or roll predictably, better players will adapt to this and you'll find yourself losing pretty horribly. these strategies may have gotten him somewhere in for glory mode, but once he comes across someone who knows what they're doing, I guarantee he won't survive long.

 

[Transforce98]

a key element to being good at smash is mixing it up. if you always recover from lying down the same way, or always come onto the stage the same way, or roll predictably, better players will adapt to this and you'll find yourself losing pretty horribly. these strategies may have gotten him somewhere in for glory mode, but once he comes across someone who knows what they're doing, I guarantee he won't survive long.

Come the second match, I read his rolls fairly well, I wasn't perfect, but I made sure to punish when I could. Even getting that Aerial Mac Game on him!

 

[Nixon Corral]

First of all, what an opponent says about your playstyle should always be taken with a grain of salt if you were the winner. But I suppose that's why you came here to run it by a third party.

Second of all, edge guarding is absolutely not cheap, least of all in Smash 4, where recovery is buffed from previous entries.

Third, rolling is about as good in Smash 4 as it has ever been in the entire series, but it's still not something you should abuse. Nevertheless, if you encounter someone who rolls a lot (or really, does anything in excess), you should be able to find a way to punish that.

Finally, I just want to reiterate my first point, don't let what your opponent says get to your head. Don't let the childish complaints of a salty opponent get your game down. That's their goal.

a key element to being good at smash is mixing it up. if you always recover from lying down the same way, or always come onto the stage the same way, or roll predictably, better players will adapt to this and you'll find yourself losing pretty horribly. these strategies may have gotten him somewhere in for glory mode, but once he comes across someone who knows what they're doing, I guarantee he won't survive long.

This, this, this. Just think about it from a theory-crafting perspective. If you always know what your opponent will do in any given situation, shouldn't you always be able to push your offense optimally against that? The answer is yes. And unless they behave optimally at all times (putting you in a Nash equilibrium, just for some fun terminology), this means you should be able to pick up on some things that make your strategy a winning strategy. Even little things, if predictable enough (and assuming you have sharp enough reflexes) can mean a stock. For example, suppose, like Takyon said, you always know how your opponent will roll on getup? In that case, throw out your best Knee/F-Smash/whatever at that point every time.

 

[Transforce98]

First of all, what an opponent says about your playstyle should always be taken with a grain of salt if you were the winner. But I suppose that's why you came here to run it by a third party.

Second of all, edge guarding is absolutely not cheap, least of all in Smash 4, where recovery is buffed from previous entries.

Third, rolling is about as good in Smash 4 as it has ever been in the entire series, but it's still not something you should abuse. Nevertheless, if you encounter someone who rolls a lot (or really, does anything in excess), you should be able to find a way to punish that.

Finally, I just want to reiterate my first point, don't let what your opponent says get to your head. Don't let the childish complaints of a salty opponent get your game down. That's their goal.



This, this, this. Just think about it from a theory-crafting perspective. If you always know what your opponent will do in any given situation, shouldn't you always be able to push your offense optimally against that? The answer is yes. And unless they behave optimally at all times (putting you in a Nash equilibrium, just for some fun terminology), this means you should be able to pick up on some things that make your strategy a winning strategy. Even little things, if predictable enough (and assuming you have sharp enough reflexes) can mean a stock. For example, suppose, like Takyon said, you always know how your opponent will roll on getup? In that case, throw out your best Knee/F-Smash/whatever at that point every time.

I wasn't really taking him seriously, I was just questioning his reasoning. I noticed afterwards, we had a match where he played his version of Toon Link, which is what I expected him only to use boomerangs and arrows, that he also used down air back onto the stage. I quickly shielded him and grabbed pummel a couple times and down throwed him. He mentioned that you could get out of Link and Tink's grab, but I don't think that was a thing. Then again, I just got back onto the Smash Train with the new game. He didn't even know about the fact that you can grab the edge with their grabs.

I just want to say, man, you bring the Smash-Justice to the right places.

 

[FP-Takyon]

What does he mean by "get out" of the grab? By doing the same thing to get out of everyone else's grab? With any grab, hitting buttons decreases grab length, and the lower your damage percent, the shorter the grab length.

Unless he means cancelling out the grab by smacking the opponent at the same time the grab hits, which will instantly release you, but that's also the same with any characters grab

 

[Transforce98]

What does he mean by "get out" of the grab? By doing the same thing to get out of everyone else's grab? With any grab, hitting buttons decreases grab length, and the lower your damage percent, the shorter the grab length.

Unless he means cancelling out the grab by smacking the opponent at the same time the grab hits, which will instantly release you, but that's also the same with any characters grab

I didn't get what he was talking about. Like I said, I got back into Smash with this game. You could be right about the decreasing Grab length, but what do I know?

 

[FP-Takyon]

by length I mean time between being grabbed and escaping, not distance of the grab range to clarify

 

[Transforce98]

by length I mean time between being grabbed and escaping, not distance of the grab range to clarify

I guess being grabbed and escaping. Did it sound like I was talking about the distance...?

 

[FP-Takyon]

No I just tend to jump the gun when I reread something I posted that might be a little unclear.

 

[Transforce98]

No I just tend to jump the gun when I reread something I posted that might be a little unclear.

Nah, you're good. I got what you ment.

 

[qwfwfq]

I love playing Smash. I can have a lot of fun, even when I'm losing. But when someone starts to talk trash like that...I just feel that I'd end up kicking that person's ass IRL. Maybe I should never do a tourney.

 

[PCHU]

I love playing Smash. I can have a lot of fun, even when I'm losing. But when someone starts to talk trash like that...I just feel that I'd end up kicking that person's *** IRL. Maybe I should never do a tourney.

The smashers I've met in locals have generally mostly been good sports; I can't think of a time where I was surrounded by butthurt.
The one time I did meet someone in tournament who yanked his controller out after losing was totally cool a little while later, so I highly encourage you to go.

I have met people like the one in the OP, though, and it sucks.
No matter what you say, even if you try to side with them or flat-out tell them how to beat you, they'll find something to blame and just be upset at everyone.

 

[qwfwfq]

The smashers I've met in locals have generally mostly been good sports; I can't think of a time where I was surrounded by butthurt.
The one time I did meet someone in tournament who yanked his controller out after losing was totally cool a little while later, so I highly encourage you to go.

I have met people like the one in the OP, though, and it sucks.
No matter what you say, even if you try to side with them or flat-out tell them how to beat you, they'll find something to blame and just be upset at everyone.

Thanks for the encouragement. I imagine most people are cool. I know that I won't win. The main reason for going would be to try it out and experience it. See where I really stack against those who in the upper echelon of Smash 4 talent. I do a lot of Kung Fu and I learn the most when I'm competing in a tournament. I imagine the same thing is true for Smash. Eh? Growth by trial and fire?

 

[Transforce98]

Thanks for the encouragement. I imagine most people are cool. I know that I won't win. The main reason for going would be to try it out and experience it. See where I really stack against those who in the upper echelon of Smash 4 talent. I do a lot of Kung Fu and I learn the most when I'm competing in a tournament. I imagine the same thing is true for Smash. Eh? Growth by trial and fire?

Trial by ARCfire?

 

[qwfwfq]

Trial by ARCfire?

Heyoooooo

 

[Mizzy Moe]

yeah seems like he was just butthurt that you were winning then won and from the sound of it do the opposite of what he was doing XD

oh and for the aura sphere problem cant toon link/ link block any projectile as long as they stand still doing nothing? sometimes patients is the key to winning and i honestly would have just stood still maybe even set my controller on my lap as an irl taunt kinda until he decided to do something worth playing against.

either way good job on showing scrubs theyre scrubs!

 

[Transforce98]

yeah seems like he was just butthurt that you were winning then won and from the sound of it do the opposite of what he was doing XD

oh and for the aura sphere problem cant toon link/ link block any projectile as long as they stand still doing nothing? sometimes patients is the key to winning and i honestly would have just stood still maybe even set my controller on my lap as an irl taunt kinda until he decided to do something worth playing against.

either way good job on showing scrubs theyre scrubs!

I was going to reply to this after I tested that, but I forgot. Yes, Tink and Link can block a fully charged Aura Sphere. My problem was that I was hitting the stage and he threw them out before hand, hitting me. I could have done something to avoid that, I don't know. I've improved a little after that. Hell, week three of my Tourneys, I three stocked his Lucario as Little Mac.

And you're damn right he was salty.

PRAISE MAC ATTACK
I'm not sorry

 

[A17]

he says "Get ready to fight a good smasher."

It's all relative. There's a difference in what you both consider skilled play (I'm basing this off the way you're speaking).

If rolling around throwing stuff at you is considered good to him and you feel otherwise, based on the assumption you know better, it just means he hasn't been around the smash community (as much as you have) to know what's out there.



My first-hand experience of learning that my ideal of being skilled at something was not actually true:

When I was a lad, I used to play Tekken 3. There was no online and I didn't know anyone who played the game. I'd be playing in my own little bubble against AI on the hardest difficulty. Without a better frame of reference, I thought I was good at the game! If I could beat the hardest CPUs, I must be good at this game! Fast forward to some time around now, when I saw what people do at Evo, I immediately understood that I was clearly no good at Tekken.

A bit anticlimatic of an end..

Spoiler: but if you want to hear a little more

if we go back to when I was little, a relative of mine who's never played the game before beat the turd out of me at Tekken through button mashing alone. At the time, it made no sense to me that I was losing to someone who's never played the hardest CPU nor has the know-how on executing combos. My lack of experience and short-sighted perspective of playing to win caused so much frustration I actually began crying.

So yeah, to bring it back to this subject, your buddy hasn't played/seen better people to match that confident statement with his level of play. He just doesn't know. No big deal.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It's all relative. There's a difference in what you both consider skilled play (I'm basing this off the way you're speaking).

If rolling around throwing stuff at you is considered good to him and you feel otherwise, based on the assumption you know better, it just means he hasn't been around the smash community (as much as you have) to know what's out there.



My first-hand experience of learning that my ideal of being skilled at something was not actually true:

When I was a lad, I used to play Tekken 3. There was no online and I didn't know anyone who played the game. I'd be playing in my own little bubble against AI on the hardest difficulty. Without a better frame of reference, I thought I was good at the game! If I could beat the hardest CPUs, I must be good at this game! Fast forward to some time around now, when I saw what people do at Evo, I immediately understood that I was clearly no good at Tekken.

A bit anticlimatic of an end..

Spoiler: but if you want to hear a little more

if we go back to when I was little, a relative of mine who's never played the game before beat the turd out of me at Tekken through button mashing alone. At the time, it made no sense to me that I was losing to someone who's never played the hardest CPU nor has the know-how on executing combos. My lack of experience and short-sighted perspective of playing to win caused so much frustration I actually began crying.

So yeah, to bring it back to this subject, your buddy hasn't played/seen better people to match that confident statement with his level of play. He just doesn't know. No big deal.

This is my problem. I make reads on opponents while subconsciously expecting to act like a CPU, giving me a very aggressive playstyle. Any patient opponents screw me up big time. Even my best character is somewhat repetitive. (Flameswords! Flameswords everywhere!) I think what I need to do is find more options that are viable, and then tape my finger to the bottom of the gamepad so I can teach myself not to dodge roll. (Though that's probably a bad idea cuz then I can't shield.)

 

[Dokokashira]

To be honest, most people who brag or try to threaten their opponent are not very good. People who are genuinely skilled know how hard it is to get better, and thus don't shove it in other peoples' faces if they have any kind of humility.

I've dealt with these kinds of people before. All his snarky little comments were failed attempts to boost his ego and make himself seem like the better person despite his poor play and his losses... they're sometimes called "johns", from what I've seen. Smash 4, in my opinion, while there's a few cheap things you can do (I won't name any for the sake of keeping it on-topic), all of them are easily combatable with practice against the technique and training. And what he mentioned... they're not cheap in the slightest. XD

If everything happened just as you described it, you successfully punished all his bad habits, and he was just salty after his ego was burst. You have nothing to fear! Keep doing what you're doing!

 

[Ravine]

If you respond or talk to him, you are feeding his ego,and, therefore, you are playing his game. Do not respond to anything he says. Just maybe say thanks for the matches and walk away. Do not respond to ego things, shut them down without saying anything, wear headphones to ignore them, and avoid them ASAP!

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

To be honest, most people who brag or try to threaten their opponent are not very good.

Ha, I definitely know someone who fits that description perfectly. Here is a story from my Brawl days:

After hearing a massive number of complaints about my main character(s) I decided to learn a new character that was low tier in Brawl (Link). This individual took this as an opportunity to brag about his incredible skills, claiming that he had to be a "Jedi" to be this good and even offered to "teach me the ways of the Jedi". Again, keep in mind that I switched to learning a new character purely because he kept complaining about my old characters being too strong for him to handle.

Anyhow, after about a week or two, he was complaining that I was "camping" too much with Link and that Link was overpowered which was incredibly ironic considering his entire playstyle with Pit was to sit across the stage, use arrows, then roll away if I got close...he wouldn't let us play any other stage aside from Final Destination. Eventually I switched to learn Mario...then Jigglypuff...then Captain Falcon...apparently they were all "cheap" characters lol.

 

[Dokokashira]

WOW. That's the most extreme example of being a sore loser (and winner) I've ever heard in my life. There's so much wrong with this person's way of thinking... he wants it to be zero-effort and easy for him, while also wanting to win... I bet he thought he would cream tournaments, too. XD Lol. You should've picked up Pit yourself, and then proceed to watch him call his own character cheap. Do you know if he's still the same way today?

he wouldn't let us play any other stage aside from Final Destination.

Did he play Fox at all?

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

Did he play Fox at all?

Sonic, Sheik, Pit in Brawl.

In Sm4sh for the Wii U and 3DS, he switched purely to Sonic.

 

[Dokokashira]

Aww. I hoped he would've taken the meme to heart.

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

Aww. I hoped he would've taken the meme to heart.

I don't think he even knows the meme. He just, for whatever reason, thinks that tournament players ONLY play on Final Destination (which I guess was true at one point, but outdated nowadays). Sm4sh utilizing Omega stages during For Glory matches doesn't help with this line of thinking I guess.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I don't think he even knows the meme. He just, for whatever reason, thinks that tournament players ONLY play on Final Destination (which I guess was true at one point, but outdated nowadays). Sm4sh utilizing Omega stages during For Glory matches doesn't help with this line of thinking I guess.

Funny thing is Final Destination is kinda meh for some characters.

 

[Transforce98]

If you respond or talk to him, you are feeding his ego,and, therefore, you are playing his game. Do not respond to anything he says. Just maybe say thanks for the matches and walk away. Do not respond to ego things, shut them down without saying anything, wear headphones to ignore them, and avoid them ASAP!

Week three of our Tourneys, he challenged me one on one with his Lucario and my Little Mac. I kept quiet the whole match and he was trash talking. I three stocked him, luckily. I calmly said that he could have countered a lot of my Smashes, but he continued to point out my "Edge Guarding". I'm questioning his statement on him participating at tournaments.

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

Week three of our Tourneys, he challenged me one on one with his Lucario and my Little Mac. I kept quiet the whole match and he was trash talking. I three stocked him, luckily. I calmly said that he could have countered a lot of my Smashes, but he continued to point out my "Edge Guarding". I'm questioning his statement on him participating at tournaments.

Next time he challenges you to a 1vs1, ask him *before* the matches if he is prepared to deal with your edge guarding. If not, then don't bother playing him. If he says yes and he still complains afterwards, then call him out on breaking his promise.

Also, if he complains about your edge guarding you can offer him an ultimatum. "So what are you going to do about it? Are you going to complain about it or are you going to learn how to counter it?"

 

[Transforce98]

Next time he challenges you to a 1vs1, ask him *before* the matches if he is prepared to deal with your edge guarding. If not, then don't bother playing him. If he says yes and he still complains afterwards, then call him out on breaking his promise.

Also, if he complains about your edge guarding you can offer him an ultimatum. "So what are you going to do about it? Are you going to complain about it or are you going to learn how to counter it?"

Dully noted, mate. I'm polishing my Falcon game right now, if I pull of knees and heels on him, he gon be mad.

 

[Mizzy Moe]

I was going to reply to this after I tested that, but I forgot. Yes, Tink and Link can block a fully charged Aura Sphere. My problem was that I was hitting the stage and he threw them out before hand, hitting me. I could have done something to avoid that, I don't know.

what i always do if you would like advice is try your best to save your double jump (or if im sonic or pikachu or anyone with a decent up-b i use that sometimes too) so you can bait out an aura sphere samus shot or anything like that. from what i noticed for the most part if theyre not that great you can easily bait them to shoot it and just jump over it to punish every shot and every second they took chargin it
if you have a 3ds ill spar with you if youd want my onlines been actin weird lately though

Eventually I switched to learn Mario...then Jigglypuff...then Captain Falcon...apparently they were all "cheap" characters lol.

if you think puff is cheap your just mad XD

i can at least understand falcon somewhat cuz hes fast and strong as hell XD

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

if you think puff is cheap your just mad XD

i can at least understand falcon somewhat cuz hes fast and strong as hell XD

This story is about Brawl (for the Wii), not the 3DS and Wii U Smash Bros. All those characters were bad.

 

[Mizzy Moe]

This story is about Brawl (for the Wii), not the 3DS and Wii U Smash Bros. All those characters were bad.

i never played much brawl so i couldnt say honestly but i did hear the rest was buffed alot (sadly not like melee rest but i guess i wont complain since it was worse) and really captain falcon was bad ever? that honestly surprises the hell outta me i think of him kinda like fox in the way of may not always be the best but a top tier none the less

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

i never played much brawl so i couldnt say honestly but i did hear the rest was buffed alot (sadly not like melee rest but i guess i wont complain since it was worse) and really captain falcon was bad ever? that honestly surprises the hell outta me i think of him kinda like fox in the way of may not always be the best but a top tier none the less

Yeah, Captain Falcon was like the fifth worst character if I recall correctly...He really didn't have much going for him in that game.

 

[Transforce98]

what i always do if you would like advice is try your best to save your double jump (or if im sonic or pikachu or anyone with a decent up-b i use that sometimes too) so you can bait out an aura sphere samus shot or anything like that. from what i noticed for the most part if theyre not that great you can easily bait them to shoot it and just jump over it to punish every shot and every second they took chargin it
if you have a 3ds ill spar with you if youd want my onlines been actin weird lately though



if you think puff is cheap your just mad XD

i can at least understand falcon somewhat cuz hes fast and strong as hell XD

I do have a 3DS, I typed in my FC in my profile, but it's not displaying it when I make posts here in the fourms. You can PM me if you like, I'm not too spectacular at Smash, but I'm not terrible at all.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yeah, Captain Falcon was like the fifth worst character if I recall correctly...He really didn't have much going for him in that game.

i never played much brawl so i couldnt say honestly but i did hear the rest was buffed alot (sadly not like melee rest but i guess i wont complain since it was worse) and really captain falcon was bad ever? that honestly surprises the hell outta me i think of him kinda like fox in the way of may not always be the best but a top tier none the less

Captain Falcon was mid F Tier (#34), and Jigglypuff was low F Tier (#36) in Brawl.

 

[Tito Maas]

Five stocks???