HyperSomari64
Smash Master
Can I share it in Famiboards?
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Of course. Please do.I was finally able to do the poll, simple but effective.
If it's okay with you I can share this poll to not only another Discord server but also an obscure subreddit I frequent.
Of course. Please do.Can I share it in Famiboards?
I am in my right mind and cannot imagine Toad not falling somewhere on the clone spectrum. The question is where on the spectrum?That's... not exactly true. You're overstating the case for Toad quite significantly. The biggest problem in your argument is that nobody in their right mind is asking for Toad as a clone character. Who would he be a clone of? Peach? Mario? It wouldn't work one to one nearly as neatly as you are thinking.
Smash already has plenty of zoners, ones with lots of gadgets... that is basically Mega Man, and to a slightly lesser degree Samus / Dark Samus. And if we wanted new unique gun weapon-centric characters... I mean we can add Jonesy from Fortnite, Master Chief and Tracer to name a few.Most of what Geno has in his arsenal is distinctly his -- being a high risk/high reward zoner with some sort of timed hits mechanic which boosts the strength of attacks. A fighter with guns, cannons, laser beams, OHKO hits, timed hits, maybe tinkering with the fact that he's possessed by a star spirit playing into rounding out his kit, etc.
Grapplers in Smash all have command grabs, and that does not fit Toad like it does Donkey Kong, Bowser or Incineroar... unless there is something from a Mario spin-off I am not thinking of.And then Toad who would probably be some sort of fast-paced brawler/grappler who also uses a plethora of gizmos from the mainline Super Mario series. Both offer some very interesting potential but it really comes down to personal preference and the fast-paced brawler archetype is already showcased with Capt. Falcon and Sonic -- not to say Toad would play the same as those two at all but the distinctive factor is lesser.
And why can't they be used to build Geno, if Mario can be used to build Toad?that is basically Mega Man, and to a slightly lesser degree Samus
He knows what he did.why do people always have to rain on toad's parade
As one of Toad's strongest defenders (I think)... you're downplaying Geno super hard.There are a lot of factors in Toad vs. Geno that I think uplift Toad and bury Geno
1. Toad can be a clone, Geno cannot
Clones used to be a hateddddddd concept in these discussions. Now, Smash fans realize they are more frugal to add in terms of time, money and resources. They are not competing for other spots, they are more cool bonus characters.
A lot of clone-ish characters fall this way, which again, I think is working in the favor of Toad, Bandanna Waddle Dee, Dixie Kong, ETC. And if any of these characters were added, that would soften the blow of people wanting another character because these characters fall somewhere on the clone spectrum, and thus required less to create.
2. Geno's moveset is hard to conceptualize, Toad is not.
Geno is hard to conceptualize a moveset and skillset in a way that is interesting and cohesive in Smash. Geno also only has one game to be drawn from.
I think the PMEX Geno is one of the weakest additions in that mod for instance. I think the people who made Geno for PMEX did a good job, but it is easy to see why said characters' moveset felt cluttered.
Other newly made characters in PMEX were very easy to understand and probably fundamentally very easy to add.
While that is one example, in contrast Toad we can all picture.
Toad could be Mario but with the Mario 2 high speed / high power / low jump. Toad could have a variety of moves from his dozens of spin-off appearances or few Mario 2D appearances. All of that is easy to imagine.
And if you want more out of Toad that is unique... Captain Toad exists... and is his own character!
3. Geno's design is not visually apparent.
This is something more and more I can see being so important in not only Smash, but videos. A character visibly being easy to understand what they are just by looking at them for the first time... that is super important for a main character.
And I do not think Geno has that. Geno is a wooden doll yes, probably with magical powers. But does Geno's design highlight that Geno is largely a weapon? Not really. Meanwhile if you show someone Palutena, Shulk, ROB, all the Fire Emblem folks... they can get more of the archetype after one look, and be reasonably right.
If you want to go general gaming, we all know what Master Chief, Kratos or Trevor from GTA V were largely about just looking at their character art.
Toad is similarly visually easy to understand what Toad is about. But also probably half the population on Earth would know who / what Toad is already. And that makes a world of difference.
No raining here! I'm just saying Toad can't be a Mario clonewhy do people always have to rain on toad's parade
you are one of the last users I'd expect to do the rainingNo raining here! I'm just saying Toad can't be a Mario clone
Probably should have clarified I meant moreso 64 and Melee Mario. Mario nowadays is like Mario 64 Mario, but Mario in Smash 64 felt more like 2D Mario, and played like an entirely different character.I don't think this thread should get too off track hung up on this specific topic, but I think the idea of Toad as a Mario clone hinges on something that isn't actually there. It'd be one thing if Mario used a bunch of power-ups that Toad already has access to, but Cape and FLUDD are already unfitting of Toad and his body type / animations would be completely different. He's also got his big mushroom head which, knowing Smash's general design philosophy, would become a central part of many attacks in contrast to his generally stubby little hands and feet. Mario does a lot of punching and kicking that would just look a bit odd translated over to Toad. His main source of inspiration is Mario 64 in which Toad has never been playable.
Clones are a spectrum. It is not just "they have this many similar moves," "they have similar animations," it is some semblance of shared or borrowed DNA as to what makes a character a character. The problem with this is that it can be hard to figure out where the spectrum of the shared DNA ends and where unique DNA begins. There are definitely gray areas. And quite frankly, I am entirely unsure of what I consider the line is for clones, semi-clones, ETC. And I think that is where the contention I was stating is coming from. But I guess I did not divulge enough into the matter beforehand.maybe we have different perspectives on what "clone" entails here.
Well if SSBU was any indication, that doesn't mean there's gonna be a whole lot of them."Echo Fighters" changed everything in that regard. Now more people don't look at clones necessarily as much as "taking spots" but rather "being additions," possibly including developers even. This probably will impact the availability (and alternate characters) going forward if the Smash series continues.
By all means, please do. I don't have an account there.I can post to gamefaqs if you'd like
Last time I checked, around 670.How many people have voted now?
At best Bandana Dee would have similar stats to Kirby like run speed, and weight. Otherwise, Bandana Dee even has a move or two that not even Kirby can canonically perform in the series that'd make his moveset much more versatile......people are not looking at Toad or especially Bandana Dee as clones.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to rain on Toad's popularity. He's a generally well liked and relatively popular character and I think he could be fun. He has a lot to offer but as a Geno fan someone comes swinging against my boy I'll respond by talking the pros and cons of both and weigh them against each other as I see it. I just think that Toad and Captain Toad placing higher is a result of them being more generally liked than having as much of a hardcore fanbase like Geno does. If votes were restricted to a top three of each voter then I think the results would be a bit different. Toad is still a popular addition either way and worth adding eventually I'd say so no hate towards him. I've already said everything I need to and it's really off the topic of what this thread is for so I'm done comparing the two and arguing this topicwhy do people always have to rain on toad's parade
Some very interesting developments in the last ~100 votes.Well, since people are talking about Toad, something interesting has happened in the Mario section.
Waluigi and Paper Mario are still first and second, but Captain Toad has overtaken Toad. And now both Toads have a twenty point lead on Geno. It's no longer close.
Also, Anna has been knocked out of the Fire Emblem top five by Edelgard.
Mr. Sandman has currently overtaken King Hippo in the Punch Out!! section.
Pearl has been knocked out of the Splatoon top five entirely. Fifth place is now a three way tie between Callie, Marie and Big Man.
Ninjara took fifth from Max Brass in the ARMS top five.
Ayumi overtook Starfy in the new franchises top five and Euden has fallen out of the top ten.
Dee already has history of reusing a few of Kirby's animations, it'd be just like how post-Brawl newcomers' tendency to reuse minor Falcon animations on anyone who's Falcon-shaped enough rather than him actually being a Kirby echoAt best Bandana Dee would have similar stats to Kirby like run speed, and weight.
"Anna has been knocked out of the Fire Emblem top five"Well, since people are talking about Toad, something interesting has happened in the Mario section.
Waluigi and Paper Mario are still first and second, but Captain Toad has overtaken Toad. And now both Toads have a twenty point lead on Geno. It's no longer close.
Also, Anna has been knocked out of the Fire Emblem top five by Edelgard.
Mr. Sandman has currently overtaken King Hippo in the Punch Out!! section.
Pearl has been knocked out of the Splatoon top five entirely. Fifth place is now a three way tie between Callie, Marie and Big Man.
Ninjara took fifth from Max Brass in the ARMS top five.
Ayumi overtook Starfy in the new franchises top five and Euden has fallen out of the top ten.
I'm curious. Do you have access to the Geno discord?Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to rain on Toad's popularity. He's a generally well liked and relatively popular character and I think he could be fun. He has a lot to offer but as a Geno fan someone comes swinging against my boy I'll respond by talking the pros and cons of both and weigh them against each other as I see it. I just think that Toad and Captain Toad placing higher is a result of them being more generally liked than having as much of a hardcore fanbase like Geno does. If votes were restricted to a top three of each voter then I think the results would be a bit different. Toad is still a popular addition either way and worth adding eventually I'd say so no hate towards him. I've already said everything I need to and it's really off the topic of what this thread is for so I'm done comparing the two and arguing this topic
The Edelgard sweep is upon us at last...it just took a while for her to get here because she's an armored unit."Anna has been knocked out of the Fire Emblem top five"
"...by Edelgard."
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I dunno if you can call it an Edelgard sweep.The Edelgard sweep is upon us at last...it just took a while for her to get here because she's an armored unit.
Onward to a new dawn.
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To be fair "X Sweep" became a meme from Morbius NOT dominating the box office.I dunno if you can call it an Edelgard sweep.
She's winning by one vote.
I do not which is probably for the best for my own sake. I remember a lot of drama happening involving the Geno support base around Ultimate's DLC cycle and since then I've been a Geno supporter/SMRPG fan that sort of vibes outside of that core base. If I did have the Discord, I absolutely would post this poll there but unfortunately I'm just doing my own thingI'm curious. Do you have access to the Geno discord?
I am unaware if this has been posted there.
good to see ninjara doing well and the toads going on by leaps and bounds. and ayumi doing well is also great, do feel a little bad for starfy. shame to see edlegard kill anna. but murdering people is what she doesWell, since people are talking about Toad, something interesting has happened in the Mario section.
Waluigi and Paper Mario are still first and second, but Captain Toad has overtaken Toad. And now both Toads have a twenty point lead on Geno. It's no longer close.
Also, Anna has been knocked out of the Fire Emblem top five by Edelgard.
Mr. Sandman has currently overtaken King Hippo in the Punch Out!! section.
Pearl has been knocked out of the Splatoon top five entirely. Fifth place is now a three way tie between Callie, Marie and Big Man.
Ninjara took fifth from Max Brass in the ARMS top five.
Ayumi overtook Starfy in the new franchises top five and Euden has fallen out of the top ten.
what does having more "hardcore" fans even prove? that they're louder? that the entire concept of who's popular is inherently flawed cause it's often based on who people like the most rather than who has the most people liking them?Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to rain on Toad's popularity. He's a generally well liked and relatively popular character and I think he could be fun. He has a lot to offer but as a Geno fan someone comes swinging against my boy I'll respond by talking the pros and cons of both and weigh them against each other as I see it. I just think that Toad and Captain Toad placing higher is a result of them being more generally liked than having as much of a hardcore fanbase like Geno does. If votes were restricted to a top three of each voter then I think the results would be a bit different. Toad is still a popular addition either way and worth adding eventually I'd say so no hate towards him. I've already said everything I need to and it's really off the topic of what this thread is for so I'm done comparing the two and arguing this topic
No, I mean it in the way that Geno might have less supporters overall, or less people generally agreeing to his inclusion and liking the idea of him being added one way or another whereas Toad would be more generally agreed upon or more "popular" to put it simply. It's a semantics argument but if the poll was conducted to have a restriction on how many characters the voter can vote upon -- say three or so -- then Geno might slide ahead because he has less people who generally agree to his inclusion but a more dedicated fanbase who rally behind his potential. It's a very minor semantical point and I don't want to diminish Toad's ability to garner votes because I have nothing against the character so I don't want to come across as if I'm stomping my feet and saying "no, no this must be wrong!" but it's just an observation. It's a scenario worth pondering if nothing elsegood to see ninjara doing well and the toads going on by leaps and bounds. and ayumi doing well is also great, do feel a little bad for starfy. shame to see edlegard kill anna. but murdering people is what she does
what does having more "hardcore" fans even prove? that they're louder? that the entire concept of who's popular is inherently flawed cause it's often based on who people like the most rather than who has the most people liking them?
just goes to show you asking people to pick one, and only one, is just gonna cloud the resultsNo, I mean it in the way that Geno might have less supporters overall, or less people generally agreeing to his inclusion and liking the idea of him being added one way or another whereas Toad would be more generally agreed upon or more "popular" to put it simply. It's a semantics argument but if the poll was conducted to have a restriction on how many characters the voter can vote upon -- say three or so -- then Geno might slide ahead because he has less people who generally agree to his inclusion but a more dedicated fanbase who rally behind his potential. It's a very minor semantical point and I don't want to diminish Toad's ability to garner votes because I have nothing against the character so I don't want to come across as if I'm stomping my feet and saying "no, no this must be wrong!" but it's just an observation. It's a scenario worth pondering if nothing else
Each Smash game changes course entirely in the character choices and how they are revealed entirely, including with how DLC is mattered.Well if SSBU was any indication, that doesn't mean there's gonna be a whole lot of them.
I did not bring it up because it was not my point. Reusing assets, animations, bones, ETC is just how video games and animations work.Besides, as I said (and you keep ignoring), even characters that don't feel "cloney" still share DNA with previously existing fighters. WFT goes into the exact same poses as Zelda when being attacked. Little Mac, Ryu, Simon, Terry, and Min Min all have minor Captain Falcon animations left over. Piranha Plant's flowerpot is on the same "bone" as Bowser Jr.'s Clown Car.
This is how character development in fighting games and video games works from pre-release to release.Cloud and Corrin appeared in earlier Smash 4 patches as duplicate Ikes, and Bayonetta as a duplicate ZSS.
I'm not sure what surprises me more, that Wii Fit has a Subreddit active enough to respond, or that they responded and said no.Okay, my adventures into reddit have been somewhat fruitful.
- Super Smash Bros (not the main two)
- Donkey Kong
- Xenoblade
- Star Fox
- Kirby
- Earthbound
- Punch Out!!
- Advance Wars
- Chibi-Robo
- Ring Fit Adventure
These subreddits have agreed to host the poll.
Most subreddits have either ignored me or just haven't seen the request back. The Legend of Zelda, Wii Fit and Golden Sun have explicitly denied the request and that's fair. Having results to show to Reddit with the nice visuals has been very helpful in getting traction.
We're only one vote away from 800 votes. I believe you all deserve a write up once it reaches 1,000.
Thank you all for your help. The poll wouldn't have been this successful without each of you. I'm incredibly grateful.
I dunno. I haven't tried there.Are DK Vine and the Wario Forums willing enough for your poll?