Social The Pond: Greninja Social Thread and General Discussion

Do you think Greninja will return?

  • Yes

    Votes: 22 71.0%
  • No

    Votes: 1 3.2%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 8 25.8%

  • Total voters
    31
  • Poll closed .

Super Flygon

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#42
Wouldn't be surprised if it is a new Final Smash, considering how Secret Ninja Attack shows Greninja as a silhouette. It would be hard to notice Ash-Greninja as a silhouette. Either way, I'm just happy that Ash-Greninja will appear!
 
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#44
Wouldn't be surprised if it is a new Final Smash, considering how Secret Ninja Attack shows Greninja as a silhouette. It would be hard to notice Ash-Greninja as a silhouette. Either way, I'm just happy that Ash-Greninja will appear!
Exactly what I was thinking, I think Smashoperatingbuddy is spot on with what it will be now, Removing the silhouette would just make it feel lesser now.


Also very excited about Ash-Greninja, kinda wish it was an alt though
 
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#47
Only other info I could find

Greninja
-Shadow Sneak "More obvious"
-Down Tilt changed
-Neutral Air unchanged
-Water Shuriken end lag reduced
 

Super Flygon

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#48
Still waiting for footage of Greninja's Final Smash. Still seems to be Secret Ninja Attack, but I do want to see Ash-Greninja in action.

Somewhat Greninja related: I hope that Ash-Greninja's theme is available as a music track in this game! Probably unlikely (not talking about the theme song XY&Z, but if we got that too, that would be even more awesome).
 

Gekkouga

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#52

KERO's back again with another informative video about Greninja's damage output changes
 
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MartinAW4

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#53
Great video by KERO. Those are some nice buffs overall.

FAir is stronger and has less landing lag. This will likely be the best aerial for Greninja serving as a great spacing tool like in Smash 4 as well as an improved kill move now. Its kill power was lacking ever since the nerf it got in Smash 4 which didn't seem right for such a slow and damaging move to kill so late, so nice to see it strong again. It seems like you can still combo into it from Dash attack and NAir. Thanks to the reduced landing lag, Fair into Fair might also be true at low-mid percents. It was true even in Smash 4 if timed correctly.

The longer range on Shurikens is amazing. This looks like one of the best buffs it got. Every bit of range on projectiles makes them a lot safer to use and they can now outrange Sheik needles unless they got a range buff too.
The extra range on the fully charged Shuriken also means that you have more time to run after it. So even though it travels faster, you might still be able to combo it into Fair or maybe even USmash, Dash Attack and grab like in early Smash 4.

The other big one is the faster frame data on grabs. Greninja's grab range is so good that even with Smash 4 slow grabs, they were still pretty good. But now that they are faster they might compete with the best grabs in the game if their range is still the same.

NAir got its damage nerfed which could be a blessing in disguise. In Smash 4 it could true combo into USmash at kill percents both from the sweetspot hit around 80-90% and from the sourspot at around 110-120%. These ranges were very strict however. But by decreasing its damage and assuming the knockback angles were unchanged, it could greatly extend the ranges when NAir into USmash is a true kill confirm. I just wish the startup was better. Now that it is weaker, I see no point for it being among the slowest NAirs in the game.

The new Dtilt looks fast but I am not sure about the knockback angle. It will be hard to be as good as the one from Smash 4 so I am assuming this is likely a nerf. But I did hear that it apparently still comboes into USmash so we will have to see if it is really true. Dtilt into Fair at around 110+% is the other kill confirm to test whether it is still possible.

From what was not covered yet, I am mainly curious about the throw combos Greninja has.
UThrow still looks like it can combo into UAir (hopefully it is not as easy to fall out of it at higher % like in Smash 4). Though I haven't seen whether it can combo at kill percentages.
But since the FThrow and Bthrow changed as well, there might be new true follow ups now. In Smash 4, the only grab with a true combo was UThrow at low-mid percents and Dthrow at high percents if DI-ed incorrectly. So we can only gain here if FThrow or BThrow end up having a true follow up.
 

Gekkouga

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#55
CRYIN'

But this is good for our boy. I mean, it is so far the only non-gen 1 Pokémon with a seemingly remarkable role in the movie, which is huge! Makes me hopeful to see Gren as a Pokémon and Nintendo staple for years to come
 
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#56
LIVE ACTION GRENINJA
This is something I never expected. I still don't know how I feel about it. Lol. That being said, Greninja looks pretty awesome in it. Jigglypuff was also cute.

CRYIN'

But this is good for our boy. I mean, it is so far the only non-gen 1 Pokémon with a seemingly remarkable role in the movie, which is huge! Makes me hopeful to see Gren as a Pokémon and Nintendo staple for years to come
Sadly they look like the main enemy goons though. Still pretty cool though that Greninja got picked for a major role.
 

Gekkouga

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#57
Sadly they look like the main enemy goons though. Still pretty cool though that Greninja got picked for a major role.
Yeah I know, but the more they appear the better, since that Movie will be seen by millions of casuals and people not acquainted with post Gen I Pokémon, so just by appearing in a decent, non-cameo role, Greninja will undoubtedly become more known as a videogame character after this movie airs.

Which is great for its smash status in the future.
 
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#58
Yeah I know, but the more they appear the better, since that Movie will be seen by millions of casuals and people not acquainted with post Gen I Pokémon, so just by appearing in a decent, non-cameo role, Greninja will undoubtedly become more known as a videogame character after this movie airs.

Which is great for its smash status in the future.
I didn't think of that, but you're right. This should definitely help with its Smash status in the future, I'm fearful for a number of my favourites of the series is rebooted, but maybe this will help Greninja stay.

I mean Greninja is here but do far no sign of Lucario, Mewtwo or Incineroar (although I imagine Mewtwo will appear)

I wonder how they'll prioritise the Pokemon in the future.


Don't forget, Greninja also got a spotlight in the World of Light, and was closer to Mario even then most other Pokemon.
 

Gekkouga

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#59
Yeah, exactly. It also contributes to dismiss the claims that Greninja is a "flavor of the month (or gen)" character , since long after Gen VI ended we got things like Battle Bond Greninja into the S/M games, a merchandise line and ANOTHER 3DS theme focusing on it (alongside others), this live action appearance and other minoe things like more TCG cards. All in all Greninja's solidifying its status as a Pokémon icon.
 
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Lampy

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#61
Legit screamed when I saw Greninja in the Detective Pikachu trailer.
That alone makes me really hyped for the movie (though I do genuinely think it looks pretty good)
 

greatdrak

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#62
I just wanna say now because of wat I saw in the video section. Someone said greninja counter is still bad........ No it's waaaaaay better and amazing now. It actually has normal active frames for a counter, and reacts much faster so it can't be dodged as quickly (and hopefully his drag down up air combo works with the counter), and the biggest buff which has a multitude of purposes, is that now he auto teleport on top of opponent no matter where they are!!!! This means not only does it almost guarantee a hit, but some of you might already know that greninjas counter has another use. Recovery! So if a projectile character like diddy kong whacks you off stage with a banana toss, you can counter it and teleport on top of him (or side) and completely negate all his traps! Now all the other counters are unblockable, if greninjas is unblockable too, then his counter will easily be second best counter in the game!(second to witch time)

For proof check 2:13 onward in video. https://youtu.be/ndZISXy9_4I
 
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MartinAW4

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#63
I just wanna say now because of wat I saw in the video section. Someone said greninja counter is still bad........ No it's waaaaaay better and amazing now. It actually has normal active frames for a counter, and reacts much faster so it can't be dodged as quickly (and hopefully his drag down up air combo works with the counter), and the biggest buff which has a multitude of purposes, is that now he auto teleport on top of opponent no matter where they are!!!! This means not only does it almost guarantee a hit, but some of you might already know that greninjas counter has another use. Recovery! So if a projectile character like diddy kong whacks you off stage with a banana toss, you can counter it and teleport on top of him (or side) and completely negate all his traps! Now all the other counters are unblockable, if greninjas is unblockable too, then his counter will easily be second best counter in the game!(second to witch time)

For proof check 2:13 onward in video. https://youtu.be/ndZISXy9_4I
Did you get the opportunity to test the counter or are you basing what you said only on the video?

The teleport on top of opponents was also in Smash 4 but it only works up to a limited distance. If the opponent is a bit farther away, you did not teleport on top of them in Smash 4. Are you sure this changed so that you teleport from any distance? All the counter triggers in the video were from a distance when even in Smash 4 the teleport would work, so that alone is not enough to confirm it changed to unlimited distance.

The counter activation even if it was slightly buffed still seems slow enough to be blocked unless the opponent uses a laggier move. If it were unblockable that would definitely be a good buff, so this is something to confirm.

I wasn't too impressed with the counter judging only from the video but it might be better in practice. I just prefer being cautious and pleasantly surprised in case it really is useable now instead of getting my hopes high and then discovering that it is still mostly useless.

Though one thing that generally buffs all counters is the nerf to airdodges. So having an extra defensive option in the air is definitely a plus for Greninja.
 
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greatdrak

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#64
Oooooooh I never knew that about the teleport in smash 4, I only countered projectiles (too difficult to counter anything else on reaction), so I never noticed that. Hmmmm interesting. Yeah I wanna see more footage of his counter, cuz maybe the distance was increased, idk. Either way I hope we both will be pleasantly surprised!
 
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#65
A kid just won the Nintendo live tournament using Greninja.

It was just a casual tournament but we get a couple of clean looks at his final smash and a couple of his victories.
 

MartinAW4

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#66
Yes, thanks to that we have some nice 1 vs 1 footage of Greninja. And this is one of the rare cases where the Greninja player has some experience using him. You can see he at least knows the basic combos like Dash Attack -> Fair and Dtilt -> Usmash. There are a few things to point out:

- at 0:16 he goes for Dash Attack -> Fair but Falcon has enough time to jump out of it. The same happens later in the match as well. So there is a chance that Dash Attack -> Fair is not a true combo anymore which would be unfortunate.
- at 7:05 the player adapts to Falcon always jumping and goes for Dash Attack -> double jump Fair which connects, so it might still be at least a 50:50.

- at 2:26 you can see Usmash do only the single weak first hit on the platform as it used to do on Battlefield in Smash 4. So unfortunately it still has not been completely fixed. Hopefully this gets fixed in future patches so that the strong hits connect on all platforms if you land the first hit.

- Dsmash does look nice though with its increased speed so that is a nice buff at least.

- at 4:20 you can see Greninja Hydro Pump used vs Falcon recovery. It barely had any effect on the trajectory of the recovery though. They might have changed the knockback angle of Hydro Pump. Hopefully it can still be used for gimping. It didn't look too good in the video.

- at 7:57 we have the Dtilt into Usmash confirm which seems like it could still be true. This would be great to have still intact.

 

MartinAW4

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#69
I'm starting to think Gren's sadly not coping with the power creep in this game.
There hasn't been a power creep in Ultimate though. On the contrary, most of the top tiers from Smash 4 were nerfed and even many non-top tier characters got some of their best moves nerfed.

So that leaves the general new mechanics which affect the whole cast:
- weaker shields and airdodges
- stronger edgeguarding
- lower aerial landing lag
- dash cancel into tilts
These changes mostly benefit characters with great mobility who do not need to rely on shields that much, with strong spacing aerials which will become safe on shield thanks to the landing lag reduction, with great tilts and strong recoveries. And Greninja is among the best in all of those categories. So in theory Greninja should do better in Ultimate than it did in Smash 4.

But even if Greninja ends up being weaker, that might be a blessing in disguise. Sakurai will be looking out for the strongest characters from the start and hitting them hard with nerfs. And due to Sakurai's lack of understanding of the competitive scene, it is not uncommon for him to overdo it with the nerfs. It already happened to Greninja in Smash 4 and not just once. So the best thing for a character is to have powerful tools that are hard to learn initially, so that it goes under the radar at first and avoids the initial waves of nerfs. And this is pretty likely to happen with Greninja.

Greninja is in that perfect spot of being a high tier character that does not attract too much attention with overpowered moves, but has really fun gameplay and deceptively strong options, many of which surpass what most top tiers have. It is just held back by its lack of aerials with fast startup and long lasting hitboxes. Also its disadvantage state is not the best. But pretty much everything else from mobility to combos to kill setups is top tier level.
And unlike other fast characters it is often compared to like Sheik, Fox or ZSS, Greninja is the only one with a good kill throw with a long grab range and buffed frame data, great disjointed aerials for spacing and a projectile that can either deal chip damage or kill, is transcendent when fully charged and cannot be absorbed. So I do think Greninja has enough tools to hold a viable spot in the Ultimate meta and separate itself from the rest.
 

Kevandre

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#71
I used Greninja a lot on 3DS but kind of dropped him with Wii U. Now with Ultimate, he's one of my better ones again. I've found him to be my online pick for some reason.
 
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#72
I enjoyed Greninja in Smash 4, but I think he EXCELS in this engine. I have already gotten multiple down air spikes, fair edge guards, and more due to the lack of multiple air dodges. Still have to get used to short hopping all over again, but I think I will solo main this time around.

Also here is a Greninja animation I made to celebrate the frog being good again
Greninja_Standing_test.gif
 
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Gekkouga

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#73
That's amazing Drew!

On a sorta related note, did y'all notice Gren's new curry eating animation?



It's HILARIOUS how they made it blush that much
 
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#74
That's amazing Drew!

On a sorta related note, did y'all notice Gren's new curry eating animation?



It's HILARIOUS how they made it blush that much
Amazing the level of detail. They had to do this for every single character using this ****ty item lol. Love it
 

Gekkouga

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#75
Can we talk about Venia winning Xeno? Because boy he's showing so much promise, I love how adamant he is on twitter about the frog's strenghts despite all the low tier placings.
 

MartinAW4

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#76
Can we talk about Venia winning Xeno? Because boy he's showing so much promise, I love how adamant he is on twitter about the frog's strenghts despite all the low tier placings.
He is one of the Greninja mains I am looking forward to watching the most in the future when he really gets used to the character changes. He was always a very movement based Greninja player with very little shield usage which is how I find Greninja plays most effectively. He also likes going for crazy unexpected options that are just fun to watch in general.

At the moment despite winning his first tournament in Ultimate, you can still see quite a few mistakes in each of his matches. When compared to Lea from Japan, Venia still has a long way to go before reaching that level of precision and decision making. But I'm sure he'll get there with time.

He is also basically the Greninja version of Esam in terms of his Greninja opinions, so I would take what he says regarding Greninja with a grain of salt. But I do absolutely agree that Greninja does not belong anywhere near low tier. He was already high tier in Smash 4 and got almost exclusively buffs in everything except his grab game (which got nerfed for everyone). Especially his kill power got huge buffs across the board. So I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up being in the upper high or even lower end of top tier considering how well he's dealing with other potential top tiers at the moment like Olimar and Fox.

Especially in those games vs Light, that was the first time I've seen a game with Fox where Fox was the one getting rushed down and not the other way around. Matchup inexperience definitely also played a role, so I expect the games to be closer next time but Venia also had a lot of room for improvement, so we'll have to see how it ends up.
 

MartinAW4

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#77
Another successful day for Greninja.

Venia got another tournament win. This time getting his revenge vs Gen in Grand Finals, paying him back for his losses from Let's make moves and from Winners Finals of this tournament. He adapted very well and took Grand Finals from loser's side pretty cleanly.

Lea also made it to the finals in Japan where he lost a very close game 5 to Tsu's Lucario which also seems to have been really buffed, especially in speed. He got a much higher speed increase than any other character I've seen so far. Every time Lea seemed to have him figured out, he pulled out something completely unexpected to get a stock.

But there were some key areas for improvement that Lea could have made use of. Mainly once he got Lucario to 95%, he should have stopped adding more damage and focused a lot more on getting a Dtilt into Usmash. He did this very well in the 4th game for example. You just cannot let Lucario live past 100%, otherwise he can really snowball his advantage to take several stocks in a row.

And he could have also used Substitute in many situations to score kills once Lucario got to high percents. Though I do understand that vs high Aura Lucario, going for a counter is very risky. I'm sure next time they meet, Lea will be better prepared. But even now it was a great match, Lea's movement is the best I've seen in these games. He keeps getting better each day. You can watch the game below:
 
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Gekkouga

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#78
Seems like iStudying is having doubts about sticking with Greninja. On the other hand, Leffen reckons it is a "highish character"
 

MartinAW4

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#79
Seems like iStudying is having doubts about sticking with Greninja. On the other hand, Leffen reckons it is a "highish character"
Yeah, iStudying was having doubts about maining Greninja from the start. But I think he's still in the transition phase when he's getting used to his new options. Out of the characters he was using vs Armada, Greninja seems like the most powerful pick, so I do think he will stick with the frog and likely see even more success than in Smash 4.

And I wouldn't take Leffen's opinion on Greninja too seriously. 3 weeks ago he put him in bottom tier saying things like Greninja has no combo throws (Uthrow and Dthrow both combo into several moves) and saying that his Dash Attack is bad when it's one of the best in the game.
Now that he's seeing all the tournament placements, his opinion is changing but he obviously has no idea what he's talking about regarding Greninja.
 

Firox

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#80
Yeah, I couldn't believe how many early tier lists had Greninja placed so low. His out of shield game is pretty sad but his speed, power and combo game are constantly overlooked due to his relatively high skill floor. So far, I think Eventhubs has the most accurate tier list for ultimate with Greninja placed among the top 15. Seems fair. He's awesome, but I can understand why he'd struggle with the likes of Chrom and Pikachu.
 
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