The Pokedex. PT doesn't care enough to analyze 120 matchups. (Update 7/16)

[Onxy]

*Doesn't listen to that crazy guy above*

What does Squirtle have on Toon Link, exactly? I wasn't around for this. And the other Pokemon, also.

 

[Steeler]

tl can't camp or space squirtle. zair is just a hassle to land on squirtle. squirtle's teeny size and mobility makes projectiles ineffective. water gun cancels arrows/boomerangs, and pushes bombs back at tl. up close, you overwhelm because tl's attacks are actually on the slow side, and the hitboxes are far too small for him to do like ike. tl's problem is up close when he isn't controlling the match with projectiles/zair. he looks good, but his standard attacks are just a little to slow with too little range and a little too much lag.

hell this might even be 65/35 squirtle but i haven't played enough tl to know.

ivy and zard have more camp issues but up close ivy has more range and a much better ground game. your bair = tl zair.

zard's gotta get in there deep and go at it. try to mess up the zair spacing by dashing into it with a shield, and then punishing with maybe a dtilt or grab if you are close enough. zair is a hassle but workable. flamethrower's range > zair. cancels out arrows and rangs too. not bombs for some stupid reason iirc.

also offstage squirtle/zard can gimp tl effectively. ivy just guards the edge itself with the tether and tries to punish when tl sails over it. that and swat tl out of his recovery with bair. all TL really has is projectiles on zard/ivy, and zair is a hassle but manageable for zard. stay grounded and use your really good dash speed to get inside. your OoS options are amazing, you can punish TL out of pretty much everything when you are in range.

 

[Onxy]

Those projectiles can be swatted more easily with Bair than Charizard can do with anything. It's more of a neutral than a partial neutral, IMO.

 

[Steeler]

oh with ivysaur? yeah i could totally see that.

just don't get caught in the bair of doom or you are gimpsauced.

 

[Charizard92]

Yep, Now that the tier list has been edited, How 'bout we look up Diddy Kong and Lucario? Oh, and Onxy, I see that you changed your avatar to Steelix...

Charizard92 used fire blast. It's super effective.

Oh yeah, by the way, with Dedede vs Charizard, Charizard's main concern is the Chain grab, as it effectively cancels out His favorite stages (as walk offs which were once sweet tools of destruction are now a death trap).Outside this, the match is rather even, likely in Dedede's favor, as he is more powerful and heavier, along with an extra jump (at least Charizard's last jump can't kill him if not used properly [Ok, if you miss the edge or ground you die, but if you use up B with Dedede and don't press down or angle your movement, you die faster])

Of course, we can just ask them, and Possibly get them to have a discussion about PT, and include us. We really need more than we got (Ok, Dedede can Chaingrab Charizard, and is heavier and stronger, OK, what else?)

 

[Onxy]

Toon Link's? If you are up high off stage, you can always use Razor Leaf to turn around and Bair Link xD

 

[Steeler]

we already tried to discuss with dedede board and no one cared.

 

[Charizard92]

Ouch, it looks like we're going to have to wait to get them active, and we still have to finish DK. There's also diddy, and Lucario, and...

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Just put every Pokemon at a 70-30 advantage until the DDD boards decide to participate

 

[Steeler]

phiddlemysticks that's a brilliant idea.

 

[Mmac]

Technically, that is even (well, according to MOST boards definition) fight between Charizard and Yoshi. Charizard is grounded by comparison of most characters, which is just fine, because Charizard likes to be below his Opponents. Yoshi, likes to be above, and does so with deadly things like dair. Ultimately, it comes down to who's harder to kill, and despite the fact that Yoshi's second jump is super armor, Charizard has three air jumps, Yoshi has only one and a pop from the egg toss (not to mention the glide, and the fact that Charizard is heavier)

1. I said dead even, not even even.

2. While I do think Yoshi does do better in the Air, Yoshi does just as well on the ground, especially if Charizard is in the air at the time.
3. Double Jump Airdodge. Doesn't matter if he only has one jump, that is all he needs

 

[Steeler]

no one should be getting gimped in that matchup and charizard wants to stay primarily grounded so he can use rock smash to interrupt yoshi's attacks and space with flamethrower/tilts/grabs.

 

[Charizard92]

I kinda say it is leaning In Charizard's favor, but by a factor that most people will deem even. It is primarily down to who's harder to kill. Face it Mmac, while Yoshi is somewhat heavy and has a huge air jump, Charizard beats your dino in both categories.

 

[Steeler]

i think yoshi's one jump covers slightly more ground than zard's two.

discussing recovery is pointless in this matchup because no one should be getting gimped.

 

[Charizard92]

OK, then what is it? IMO it's 55:45 Char, yet Mmac's view is 50:50 split. Which is more correct?

Oh yeah, by the way, in our discussion with Marth, Charizard was 45:55 Marth, just to point that out.

 

[Palpi]

That is such such a minimal different it doesn't matter in my opinion. Why even care if it 55:45 or 50:50 when both really mean out play your opponent, but I do understand that it is needed for the thread.

 

[typh]

obviously it's 52.5/47.5

 

[Steeler]

i honestly think it's 56.3/43.7

but hey what can ya do

 

[Mmac]

i honestly think it's 56.3/43.7

but hey what can ya do

But you just said Ivysaur did better <_<.

I guess it's not that important though. It was just something minor to discuss to get out of the way...

 

[Steeler]

because ivysaur is 58.2/41.8.

doesn't really matter, it doesn't affect the overall matchup. matchup discussions between two F or G tier characters are always pretty sketchy anyway. if we were to argue zard's matchup coming down, then we would also have to argue ivy's matchup going up.

 

[Monkey Wrench]

Dedede matchup stuff:

Squirtle: Dedede is vulnerable to combos. Squirtle has combos. Getting inside Dedede's range means a free 30% or so at low to mid %s, and he's good at harassing D3 with hit and run tactics. But D3 is great at defense, and has some ways to keep Squirtle away. F-tilt outranges his entire ground game. Squirtle is tough to shield grab with most of his attacks being so quick, but it's doable, and usually leads into a d-throw techchase, or a b-throw for a quick 16%. Dedede's bair beats your air game, and it will by far be his most used aerial. If Squirtle is sent offstage at a low angle(as with an offstage d-throw), he's likely not making it back. Finally, KOs: U-tilt is D3s primary kill move and KOs Squirtle in the low 90s. D3 has much greater surviviability and will live to about 120 or even more from any of Squirtle's KO moves. It's Squirtle's damage racking and speed vs. Dedede's power and defensive game.

50-50, maybe 55-45 Squirtle.

Ivysaur: Dedede will be on the ground here more than in most matchups. Ivysaur's bair has huge range and beats D3's bair, but it's very weak. Your fair will probably be a major annoyance here as well. F-tilt outranges all of your ground moves, and if you don't approach carefully, you'll likely get shield grabbed and CGd offstage, which leads into a bair or fair wop and probably Ivy's stock. Both characters can spam, but Ivy's is faster(but watch for the occasional gordo from our side). Bullet Seed is a combo in itself, again, as with Squirtle, if you land the attack, it's 20-30 free damage. As for KOs, u-tilt KOs in the early-mid 100s. Dedede doesn't live as long as he likes in this matchup thanks to your u-smash and u-air, and will probably live to 110 or so if you can land it. Ivy can spam and compete with D3 in the air and in KO power, but is easy to edgeguard and can't break D3's defenses as easily as Squirtle.

55-45 Dedede, maybe 60-40.

I'll post Charizard a bit later.

Edit: I never did post Charizard, lol. Probably 50-50 or 55-45 D3's favor.

 

[Steeler]

solid stuff wrench, and charizard should be right where ivy is or in between. rock smash and flamethrower are very annoying for dedede.

 

[Onxy]

To be honest, Squirtle himself isn't too great against DDD. He can't kill him.... at all..never...

 

[typh]

well good thing we play pokemon trainer not squirtle himself then eh?

 

[Onxy]

I was saying Squirtle by himself, and that would be good for PT's OVERALL matchup, but not Squirtle's.

Just sayin'....

 

[typh]

i suppose individual matchups are interesting statistics, more power to you

 

[Onxy]

They have to be, lol.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Our Falco one is so wrong. Charizard easily does the best. It's not Falco 55:45 PT.

Also, I give up using non-Charizard Pokemon on Falco.

(this is my way of saying that we should redo that one)

 

[Steeler]

i agree, i made a post http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6196347&postcount=364 asking for what people thought should change so we could focus on stuff, but i didn't get much of a response.

 

[Charizard92]

Right, let's finish this first before double checking. We still have Lucario to talk about, and we never finished Diddy, nor Pikachu (oh, and Lucario is #493)

 

[Bomber7]

I want to make a request: When I visit one or two the match-up threads that are posted on the OP, I dont see a summary on the OP like the ROB discussion.

When I read one of the threads I just want to read the OP of that thread and be able to read the match-up ratio of each pokemon agaisnt the character and why it is like that. I'd also like to see stage stats: pros and cons; counter picks and bans.

 

[Charizard92]

We need to finish this, Fast. Just have multiple discussions on Multiple characters at once, that will make things go faster.

Edit: I have just calculated that if we were to talk about 3 Characters a week, we'd finish this in 5 Weeks. Maybe we should do 3 at once.

Edit again: Looking at the match ups, PT does, kinda well. Obviously Meta Knight is a problemo, and We have problems with Marth, but outside a Disadvantage (as in orange), we don't really have any problems. We outright Destroy DK. Matchup wise, we are Mid tier. now if only we can actually show this so we actually get there (and thus not have the cons of being top [noob magnetism] or bottom [damaged pride {on second thought, that might not be a con}])

 

[GreyFox86]

Sorry to bother but the Zelda Boards is starting to discuss about you guys.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190698&page=155

 

[Charizard92]

OK, now we talk about Zelda and Shiek. Me and Tien are practically the only two who are representing us there, and it ain't goin' well.

 

[Steeler]

we aren't discussing zelda or sheik right now, and won't for a while.

 

[Charizard92]

Then WHO are we going to talk about? How 'bout the next three Characters on the tier list. (Kirby, IC, and ZSS)

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Discuss Bowser. I dare you.

 

[Steeler]

we don't need to discuss bowser, ivyzard clearly counters him

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Only when the game constantly registers your ftilt inputs as fsmashes

 

[SuorGenoveffa]

I think ZSS would be great: I'm afraid she gives PT a lot of trouble and it doesn't seem like the ZSS boards are going to discuss the match-up anytime soon.