The Official P:M Edmonton Thread!

[KlTHKlN]

Thats the thing, who's gonna stike the most neutral of stages? The only people who will ever play on silly counterpicks are people who play silly characters, and even then, thats just silly.

edit: But I guess thats why I always hated stage striking, bringing stage striking to melee just meant every stage was on Pokestad or battlefield, and in brawl it just meant every match was on battlefield or smashville. (I know thats not FACT, but really, lets be honest, it just reduced what stages were used)

doble edit: I suppose this could be considered "fair" in a way, but I just feel it limits the fun, I like smash bros.

 

[Crusayer]

Some people don't enjoy stupid things. Playing on random stages is okay once in a while but I personally would probably not want to play on flat zone or something every so often.

I like fair matches so I'm fine with a smaller stage list. I have fun when people try hard and give their best (unless the skill gap is absurd).

 

[victra♥]

okok so lets try to reduce the stage list then, cause i'm all for getting rid of some of the stages

What do you think of the striking and bans? Personally I feel like its necessary for a match to be fair. Even in melee, it wouldn't be really fair to roll yoshi's story first in a fox vs jiggs match up for example. Likewise with the bans as well. We can go back to 1 ban if we can reduce the stage list enough.

Here's BC's stage list what do you guys think of it?

11 Stages

NEUTRALS:

Battlefield
Final Destination
SmashVille
Pokemon Stadium 2
Yoshi's Story (Melee)


COUNTER-PICKS:

Dracula's Castle
Pokemon Stadium 1
Dream Land 64
Fountain Of Dreams
Rumble Falls
Wario Ware
Green Hill Zone(Singles only)
SSE: Jungle (Doubles only)

 

[Alphicans]

I thought we weren't categorizing stages.

 

[Kuraudo]

okok so lets try to reduce the stage list then, cause i'm all for getting rid of some of the stages

What do you think of the striking and bans? Personally I feel like its necessary for a match to be fair. Even in melee, it wouldn't be really fair to roll yoshi's story first in a fox vs jiggs match up for example. Likewise with the bans as well. We can go back to 1 ban if we can reduce the stage list enough.

Here's BC's stage list what do you guys think of it?

11 Stages

NEUTRALS:

Battlefield
Final Destination
SmashVille
Pokemon Stadium 2
Yoshi's Story (Melee)


COUNTER-PICKS:

Dracula's Castle
Pokemon Stadium 1
Dream Land 64
Fountain Of Dreams
Rumble Falls
Wario Ware
Green Hill Zone(Singles only)
SSE: Jungle (Doubles only)

Add Skyloft to the Counter-Picks and you've got yourself a deal.

 

[Frio]

Yoshi's story brawl?

 

[Stevo]

okok so lets try to reduce the stage list then, cause i'm all for getting rid of some of the stages

What do you think of the striking and bans? Personally I feel like its necessary for a match to be fair. Even in melee, it wouldn't be really fair to roll yoshi's story first in a fox vs jiggs match up for example. Likewise with the bans as well. We can go back to 1 ban if we can reduce the stage list enough.

Here's BC's stage list what do you guys think of it?

11 Stages

NEUTRALS:

Battlefield
Final Destination
SmashVille
Pokemon Stadium 2
Yoshi's Story (Melee)


COUNTER-PICKS:

Dracula's Castle
Pokemon Stadium 1
Dream Land 64
Fountain Of Dreams
Rumble Falls
Wario Ware
Green Hill Zone(Singles only)
SSE: Jungle (Doubles only)

I'd just like to point out that picking stage before characters in the first round eliminates the problem of Yoshi's being unfair for fox vs puff matchup.

I actually like that stagelist.

Skyloft and yoshi's brawl should most likely be in there somewhere I guess... counterpicks most likely. I really like the "neutrals" at 5 though.

 

[GHNeko]

Yeah add skyloft, it'll help against spacies.

 

[KlTHKlN]

Some people don't enjoy stupid things. Playing on random stages is okay once in a while but I personally would probably not want to play on flat zone or something every so often.

I like fair matches so I'm fine with a smaller stage list. I have fun when people try hard and give their best (unless the skill gap is absurd).

It's not about flatzone, it's about playing the stages available, they way people look at this is "Wow we have so many stages we could play on" but because they force striking and are playing competitively, it literally will NEVER go to a more "fun and wacky" stage unless both people are good on that stage and actually just agree to it.

I really like the "neutrals" at 5 though.

Neutrals pose a point to me, even if we don't use the old system I just feel they were important because they were considered the most neutral, and sure there were bad matchups still, but they were the most balanced of the choices, and those bad matchups could go in either favour. The point of that random was to add variety and keep it interesting.

Unless we want to be japan, and just play on two stages. (Which is the most realistic for competitive purposes, we all know it. It's just less fun, I'm here for fun =P)

 

[victra♥]

i would swap fd for green hill zone tho

cause eff fd

 

[Stevo]

* effd

 

[GHNeko]

Yeah **** fd.

FD should totally be a couter pick in P:M.

 

[victra♥]

never understood why it was neutral in the first place

no plats is huge

 

[GHNeko]

It was and still is a starter literally because of a combination "That's how it always has been" and "bcuz melee"

 

[Crusayer]

Melee people are debating about FD being neutral quite some time already lol. That's why everyone strikes to battlefield nowadays anyway.

 

[GHNeko]

I can understand Melee peeps having issues with it since their stage list is so small.

No excuse for P:M tho.

 

[victra♥]

ill be honest though, i still prefer the 17 legal stages set up

i think the biggest concern (and johns) about the stages right now is that many of you simply haven't played enough pm to know the 17 stages.

yesterday i played smash with connor, jamie, and luke for hours and we were easily able to strike down to these 17 stages and play on them. By the end of it i feel like we were all very comfortable with all the stages. The more smashfests and tournies we play the more you'll understand which stage is good for your character and which isn't.

I dont like the idea of splitting stages into groups, including into neutrals and cp. It causes too much confusion, too much effort, and too much set up between games. All of which are reasons that many of you are against my proposal in the first place.

7-8-1 striking is huge and really reduces the stages. Theres no way that theres +8 stages that you hate. You've either haven't played on them enough or theres skill johns. This is no different then what we are used to in melee/brawl. Just more strikes to accommodate for more stages.

Luke and I were thinking of raising up your bans 5 for the winner. Likewise, this is to accommodate for more possible stages.

These 17 stages are all non-radical stages. Theyre easily picked out when you select your stages because theyre all simplistic.


Like its so easy to grasp i just don't understand lol.

Take melee stage rules -> more bans due to more stages -> more strikes due to more stages

 

[GHNeko]

man this sounds a lot more complicated than it should be.

 

[Stevo]

yeah that does sound complicated because of all the bans lol.

That's my biggest concern, because it can end up being a mess.

Player 1: What are the legal stages again?
Player 2: I dunno, let's get the list

Player 2: wait, what stages did you ban again?
Player 1: I think it was........
Player 2: so you didn't ban FD?
Player 1: no wait, I did.

 

[Alphicans]

Stevo that will only be an issue for a little bit. After a few tournaments everyone should be comfortable with the stage list.

 

[victra♥]

once again, once you get accustomed the stages it wouldn't be a problem.

Q: What are the legal stages again?
A: The ones that are obviously legal. (aka all the non-radicals)

Q: What stages did you ban again?
A: You'll be fully capable of remembering 5 stages.

no stage johns, just play the game more. Put all 17 stages on random and you'll get accustomed to all of them in no time.

We're a generation that memorized 151+ pokemon. Pretty sure now that we're older we can remember 17 stages especially considering how often we'll end up playing pm.

 

[GHNeko]

victra with the Asian logic.

 

[KlTHKlN]

I vote we play all the legal stages random only.

 

[Stevo]

for the record, for the 10 years or whatever I've played melee, I never paid attention to whether or not stages like mute city or pokefloats were legal lol. If someone counterpicked me there I would ask everytime if it was legal.

but I digress from the real issue at hand. I guess I will have to agree with you that eventually people will get used to it. But what about new players? the ones we really want to get interested in it?

I dunno.... 5 bans still seems like a lot to me.... that's basically striking a second time almost

 

[KlTHKlN]

yeah I never gave a ****, even when striking came up in brawl I would just ask the person I was against if they prefered smashville or battlefield.

 

[victra♥]

for the record, for the 10 years or whatever I've played melee, I never paid attention to whether or not stages like mute city or pokefloats were legal lol. If someone counterpicked me there I would ask everytime if it was legal.

but I digress from the real issue at hand. I guess I will have to agree with you that eventually people will get used to it. But what about new players? the ones we really want to get interested in it?

I dunno.... 5 bans still seems like a lot to me.... that's basically striking a second time almost

yeah I never gave a ****, even when striking came up in brawl I would just ask the person I was against if they preferred smashville or battlefield.

If you have no preference as to what stage you play on then that's all fine and dandy. However, it's not fair to those who do hold a preference.

If you have no preference then sure, striking isn't necessary. Remember, both players can play on whatever stage they want to if they agree on it, which includes selecting it randomly or playing on Hyrule Temple. Without an agreed upon stage selecting ruleset, it's going to be extremely chaotic and confusing for players who do hold preference towards stages. And rightfully so, considering stages can often skew matches depending on the characters involved, especially for a the first match of the set which should be fair game for both sides.

Consider this:
1. If you both players hold no preference:
- Stage is selected randomly/manually.

2. If one player holds no preference:
- Stage is selected by player with preference.

3. If both players hold preference:
- ???

I'd like to propose the idea that there are no universally neutral stage. Each character match-up have their own respective "neutral stage." The striking system allows this "neutral stage" to be determined by the players involved. The alternative would be to sit there asking each other which stage they want to play on. Striking is quick and simple.

In terms of new players, I think it's actually easier for them if there's an established list of stages that are legal. We avoid the "what stage can we play on" situation. In situations like this it usually doesn't matter, and the stage is randomly selected anyways (this was seen at Jarrett's tournament when many of us knew nothing about the stages and just rolled random).

The number of bans is still tentative and up for discussion. I like the idea of 3 bans as well.

It will not be difficult to realize what stage is legal and which isn't. Like, it's seriously not hard at all. There are no legal radical stages like pokefloats and mutecity. If theres no consistent platform, and things are trying to kill you, it's not a legal stage.

 

[Stevo]

isn't halberd legal?
doesn't that have stuff trying to kill you?

and is brinstar in Project M? would we have that as a CP like in Melee?
(these aren't completely rhetorical for the sake of my argument, I don't actually know if brinstar is in PM lol)

3 bans seems more reasonable, though.



My dream ruleset (won't ever happen)

1st match
smashville only or some sort of random between a small amount of stages

2nd match
loser picks stage, characters after as normal, no bans (not really necessary with picking characters after anyway, except for hardcore fans of having a main, aka everyone)

3rd match if needed
same as 2nd match.


If I'm speaking realistically in what I can convince others to do, I would be fine with the BC Stagelist to be honest, with 3 or less bans.

 

[GHNeko]

Halberd is legal. The bomb lost a lot of its kill power, the claw doesnt work, and the laser is obvious.

Brinstar is in P:M and it's CP/Banned among most.

 

[Alphicans]

Guys I honestly felt every stage is playable first match in some match-ups. The stages are all so diverse in terms of how you have to play, but they're all simple in that they're generally flatstages and some platforms. None of the stages are really that dynamic/have hazards.

 

[Stevo]

but I ask you this.

do they have balloons?

 

[victra♥]

Lol 10/10 stevo

Also IVYSAUR
http://projectm.dantarion.com/characters.php?character=fushigisou

As if picking a main wasn't hard enough as it is, there's still so many characters to still try out

And it's mothereffing IVYSAUR, ****s cray

 

[Frio]

Makes me want to actually play Ivy

 

[Kuraudo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq105Ccv-uw

Aww, memories as a kid...

I've got a genius idea for Squirtle. Charging its water gun like usual in Brawl, but if you don't use the charged B for Water Gun, you can use it to strengthen its new Up + B or Side + B, Hydro Pump, allowing it to travel further and prevents the opponent from trying to edgeguard it when trying to recover.

That and its pushing power is stronger than Water Gun is when used near the center of Squirtle so it can do serious push gimping when used.

[EDIT]

That and Ivysaur is awesome.

 

[Alacion]

Oh the cat's out of the bag now?

Ivysaur has like the best recovery in the game and he's so scary to play against.

Zelda using Nayru's on Seed Bomb is too funny <3

 

[victra♥]

i remember when i was little and playing melee and i wanted a smash game comprised of all the pokemon.

so that being said, i'm so excited for squirtle and ivysaur.

i was never a charizard fan though, **** me right

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQatVzbUa2c&feature=g-u-u

ivysaur trailer!!!!

 

[KlTHKlN]

See, Victor, thats the thing, I don't care about stages, but I don't want to blatantly end up on FD, what was great about old rules is it pretty much set you for anything, you could use your ban any time, and I always banned FD because **** Calgary.

But like really, I am not trying to limit people to what I use, I just feel like ultimately there will be people like that, and I truly agree with Steve here, Smashville is just... unlimited amound of best stage and fair. I'm ok with including all the stages (that are fixed) but no matter what we do there will be unfair matchups, and I feel that we should give people the choice for a while rather than enforce it, and see whats most popular/efficient.

Choices being:
1. Smashville starting, rest as normal rules because seriously, why are we debating anything after the first match? Standard stage, character, character works FINE.

2. complete random.

3. Striking from everything.

If one player disagrees to #1, move to #2, if one player disagrees with that, move to #3. Done.

Seriously the first two are self explanitory, and the third gives those oh so concerned players the perfect chance to be fair, and it would be the ONLY time we need to think, so theres no unnecessary ruling.

I think it's a pretty perfect idea and it allows for people to play how they want while still being competitively fair.

 

[victra♥]

Why would striking not be the standard? The standard should be up to the players playing, and not up to brad's opinion of what stage is "most neutral".

The difference here is that YOU'RE deciding what's a fair starter stage for everyone, and wanting that stage to be the default.

Where as striking allows THE PLAYERS to decide for THEMSELVES what THEY feel is the most fair stage for THEIR matchup. And no, there will be no unfair matchups because both players had a chance to remove 8 stages they felt were unfair. If there are still complaints at that point, then its no longer stage johns but skill johns.

Once again this holds true
1. If you both players hold no preference:
- Stage is selected randomly/manually.

2. If one player holds no preference:
- Stage is selected by player with preference.

3. If both players hold preference:
- ???

This scenario held true at Jarrett's tournament time and time again.

1. Most matches the stage was randomly selected because many of us didn't really know the stages were good for what match up.

2. For few matches, the first stage was selected manually by the player with a preference. For example, Mark asked if BF is ok and we started there.

3. Stage striking happened for players who knew the match up well, such as David vs Connor, and Ron vs Jack for example.




With this ruleset, we're putting all of the choice in the person and make THAT our default position, instead of putting our own views into it.
You want to start your first match on Skyloft? Go for it. Smashville? The choice is all yours.

 

[Limeee]

striking is a tested and super solid method of selecting the first stage

it hardly takes any time at all once your used to the game

i.e in brawl in certain matchups against alberta people that ive played time and time again the striking only takes a few seconds

you just have to get used to it brad, you'll begin to appreciate it

 

[victra♥]

and you know if somethings fast for brawl it'll be fast for pm

heyo

 

[Kuraudo]

Dohohoho!