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The Nuremberg Defense and Accountability

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Digital Watches

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For those unfamiliar with the term, the Nuremberg Defense refers to the claim that one cannot be held accountable for one's actions if these actions were a direct order from a superior. Obviously, this mainly comes up during war crime trials, such as the Nuremberg trials - after which the practice was named - in which German soldiers were tried after World War 2. The US military has since issued a statute which allows soldiers to refuse unlawful orders, but many argue that this does nothing to alleviate the problem. Is it just to invalidate such a defense in times of war?

But this goes outside of the context of the Nuremberg defense and war crimes. More importantly: When, if ever, should anyone no longer be accountable for one's own actions? Is there a point where a person cannot be said to have a choice? If so, what is that point?
 

Scav

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I'm not contributing much by way of debate, but for anyone interested in this subject I recommend reading up on Philip Zimbardo and Stanley Milgram. They both conducted famous experiments having to do with normal people committing heinous acts.

Zimbardo has a new book out called "The Lucifer Effect" where he explains it further.
 

Crimson King

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I just saw a book review for that and I definitely want to pick that up. I'll be able to contribute much better after reading Zampano's book ;)
 

Scav

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That was Milgram's, yes. Zimbardo's was the one where he told half of his subjects they were jailers, and the other half were prisoners, and had them roleplay it for a week. He sat back and watched as the jailers got more and more abusive.
 

blazedaces

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That was Milgram's, yes. Zimbardo's was the one where he told half of his subjects they were jailers, and the other half were prisoners, and had them roleplay it for a week. He sat back and watched as the jailers got more and more abusive.
I just want to add a bit after reading about this experiment from a number of sources. During the time many people were asking why did acts often seen in prison happen so often (guards abusing their powers, using violence, prisoners being so depressed, not adjusting to society easily, etc.) and the answer was often given that with such deranged "animals" being kept of course the result was as crazy an environment as was observed. This experiment was sort of a response, though they never imagined how far this would go.

See, they got college students (all would have an education) and screened them down to 21 people (who all had extremely similar psyches and were least likely to become insane for whatever reason) (Forgot to mention they would be paid to do this). Then, randomly, 11 were selected as guards and 10 as prisoners (it might have been 10 and 11, I don't remember for sure) to see once and for all if it was their psyche that had any effect on how they behaved or if it was the work environment itself causing such results.

The experiment was supposed to go on for two weeks I believed, but was shut down on the 6th. The guards had begun to use extreme violence and be very commanding. Prisoners didn't seem to realize they were being paid to do this, even when reminded they could leave at any time they refused, even when told they would still keep their pay thus far. They were very submissive. Even the man conducting the operation (which I can't remember if it was Zimbardo completely or he had a second guy doing this) who was acting as the warden of the prison was told by his wife that he was taking this way too far.

Zimbardo and others conducting the experiment were worried that any permanent psychological damage had occured. Honestly, they never expected anything of this magnituded to happen or they never would have committed to this project. All those in the study were followed up periodically for years and years to come. No permanent psychological damage was noted whatsoever. Most commented that as soon as they went back to their normal lives they went back to acting normally and that they just think about this past experiment as a lesson learnt.

Makes you kind of think of the reply the bush administration gave after the fiasco with the Iraqi prisoners right? Here's an examples article I looked up: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml

A quote from it: “So what would I tell the people of Iraq? This is wrong. This is reprehensible. But this is not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are over here,” adds Kimmitt. “I'd say the same thing to the American people... Don't judge your army based on the actions of a few."

Were these just the black sheep of the American family or was there more to it?
 

Jeremy Feifer

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For those unfamiliar with the term, the Nuremberg Defense refers to the claim that one cannot be held accountable for one's actions if these actions were a direct order from a superior. Obviously, this mainly comes up during war crime trials, such as the Nuremberg trials - after which the practice was named - in which German soldiers were tried after World War 2. The US military has since issued a statute which allows soldiers to refuse unlawful orders, but many argue that this does nothing to alleviate the problem. Is it just to invalidate such a defense in times of war?

But this goes outside of the context of the Nuremberg defense and war crimes. More importantly: When, if ever, should anyone no longer be accountable for one's own actions? Is there a point where a person cannot be said to have a choice? If so, what is that point?
Hmmmm....very interesting.Theres no "one way" I could answer this... but I'll give it a crack.

To murder or to do anything in such an "unethical" manner is wrong. Regardless of what anyone tells you, you have a choice. No one can "make" you do anything, they can only warp your mindset in their favor...uhhhh let me give an example:

Guy puts gun to random guys head and says to you if you dont kill yourself Im going to kill this random guy that you dont know...now in this senario its gonna be easier to say "just kill the random guy" than if it were say...your entire family at the end of that barrel. See what Im sayin?...anyway back on subject.

We all have a choice, regardless with what your superior may threaten you with for not following an order, whether it be: jail, messed up record, even death...the ultimate desicion comes down to you. All that I swear to follow the rules and obey this and that is all good... but when it comes to something that you know without a doubt is wrong and you do it... you should pay for what you did.

So I guess in the end Im trying to say what you do, you should be accountable for... a final thought...

Theres been countless people who did things that many thought of as wrong, and when asked why they did these things they would say "god told me too" or something along those lines....anyways those people usually dont slide....so I dont understand why I person who said some "human" told me to do something wrong...would be able to slide...???

^My Opinion...dont **** my post please... >_<'
 

Gamer4Fire

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Short version.

Not without heavy conditioning or drugs could you make someone do something against their will. Otherwise the person responsible is the person who committed the action.

You always have a choice, even if it is to do nothing.
 

Jeremy Feifer

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Not without heavy conditioning or drugs could you make someone do something against their will. Otherwise the person responsible is the person who committed the action.

You always have a choice, even if it is to do nothing.
^...so you agree with me? <_<'
 

Digital Watches

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I honestly don't see the logic in that.

Yes, a person always has a choice TECHNICALLY, but surely there are situations that, through no fault of their own, a person was forced to make a choice wherein the option they are later punished for was actually the better one at the time.

A pretty basic example would be a situation in which a person is forced to commit a crime under threat of the death of a hostage. Surely there is some difference in weight between the choice of commiting a crime rather than effectively allowing a loved one (or even oneself, though that doesn't pertain to this scenario) to die and the choice of committing a crime under no such adverse circumstances. Why should a person be held responsible for an action that was, for all intents and purposes, committed by the one forcing them to do so?

Such a mentality leads to perverse circumstances where a person is condemned to punishment or loss at the moment the coercing party acts upon them. It's basically equivalent to blaming a **** victim for an STD they developed. Should our justice system merely chalk it up to bad luck? Should we penalize those who pose no threat to society under circumstances where they are not being coerced?

I submit that this would be unethical.
 

Scav

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Not without heavy conditioning or drugs could you make someone do something against their will. Otherwise the person responsible is the person who committed the action.

You always have a choice, even if it is to do nothing.
Have you read about the Milgram or Zimbardo experiments? It doesn't take much conditioning at all.

In the Milgram experiment in particular he was able to get 2/3rds of participants to administer a "lethal shock." 2/3rds. No conditioning, no drugs, just an authority figure firmly saying what to do.

Yes, we always have a choice, but we're extremely bad at making it.
 

Gamer4Fire

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Scav - That experiment only shows how conditioned we are to obey authority figures. We had a discussion about it in my sociology class.

Digital Watches - The person is still responsible. Should he be punished because he was coerced? Our judicial system says no and I tend to agree. But it would be wrong to remove responsibility for his actions. In the end, the person will probably punish himself better than we could, anyways.

For me, it is more a question of principles.
 

Jeremy Feifer

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I honestly don't see the logic in that.

Yes, a person always has a choice TECHNICALLY, but surely there are situations that, through no fault of their own, a person was forced to make a choice wherein the option they are later punished for was actually the better one at the time.

A pretty basic example would be a situation in which a person is forced to commit a crime under threat of the death of a hostage. Surely there is some difference in weight between the choice of commiting a crime rather than effectively allowing a loved one (or even oneself, though that doesn't pertain to this scenario) to die and the choice of committing a crime under no such adverse circumstances. Why should a person be held responsible for an action that was, for all intents and purposes, committed by the one forcing them to do so?

Such a mentality leads to perverse circumstances where a person is condemned to punishment or loss at the moment the coercing party acts upon them. It's basically equivalent to blaming a **** victim for an STD they developed. Should our justice system merely chalk it up to bad luck? Should we penalize those who pose no threat to society under circumstances where they are not being coerced?

I submit that this would be unethical.

I think I understand were you're coming from...kinda like shoot a baby to say all mankind right?.... I understand that logic... but its still wrong. Well...I guess just depends on you and your religion...if you have none...I dont see why you would have a problem shooting the baby other than its inasince/cuteness...but if your a religious person...muder = wrong in every situation unless god himself tells you to do so... <---my thoughts..
 

cF=)

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Scav - That experiment only shows how conditioned we are to obey authority figures. We had a discussion about it in my sociology class.
Best argument ever; sociology class really puts an end to every debate possible.

While I was being sarcastic, I don't think it's because we are conditioned to obey authority figures that we act like that. I would instead blame the fact that defending ourselves, in the end, is what makes you commit the crime. Why would you obey an order if you know there isn't any aftermath ? It's much more because you are influenced and threatened to the point where self defense is more important than rational thinking.

I'm speaking here of the army though, I don't think it could be adapted to an everyday life because in that case, I would've agreed with you.
 

Gamer4Fire

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What? In the experiment the subjects weren't threatened at all. It was just an actor in a lab coat telling them, "Don't worry, just keep going."
 

cF=)

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But the topic's first post illustrate the situation as a military issue. I know what the Milgram experiment is, I even saw a documentary about it. I just thought we were debating the initial subject, not every different psychological tests.
 

Gamer4Fire

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My reply was in direct reference to a post citing the Milgram experiment as proof that heavy conditioning is not required to elicit an unwilling response.

It was in direct reply to Scav's comment, in fact. I even acknowledged him by name. Just reread the last six posts if you don't believe me.
 

cF=)

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I do believe you about that. However, you can still refute my point even if I mistaken your opinion, no ?
 

Gamer4Fire

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I'm not going to refute your point. Self-preservation will usually trumps most reasons to not do something. We are evolved to preserve self and seed, one of the reasons our maternal/paternal instincts cause us to protect kids, even to the detriment of our own lives.

In the military, if I had to choose between killing you or being shot by my superior I'd like to think that I'd let myself be shot. But that has more to do with my principles than anything else. In the end if I slaughtered you and your entire family sans my own ignoble death, I'd still feel responsible.

However, if I believed in "the cause" and exterminated you without hesitation or protest, would I be more or less guilty?
 

cF=)

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In the military, if I had to choose between killing you or being shot by my superior I'd like to think that I'd let myself be shot. But that has more to do with my principles than anything else. In the end if I slaughtered you and your entire family sans my own ignoble death, I'd still feel responsible.
From what you said, you choose between merciless killing and death. What the army will offer you is much worse perhaps, because it's either obey the order or SUFFER the consequences. Death in it's own isn't bad for you because you won't feel anything afterward, but getting your life ruined is something else.
Usually, when you threaten someone, you will try to make their life miserable if they don't obey, because in that case, you're not guilty of anything and you apply a constant pressure on the other one's mind. In that case, defending your "principles" will go even further against your will for preservation because you wished you were dead.

However, if I believed in "the cause" and exterminated you without hesitation or protest, would I be more or less guilty?
I wouldn't say you're less guilty nor more. It goes down to the nature of the crime to say so. Which means, in the end, that I don't really believes the Nuremberg defense can counter any juridical decision, I'm just saying that the choice you make is not always the one you would've done normally.
 

Gamer4Fire

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Uh, no. If I refused a direct order to kill innocent civilians I would be shot on the spot. If I refused and it went to a board of inquiry, it would by my superior officer being court-martialed, not me. I would have no fear of persecution.

I would say the believer is more guilty than the man who committed it at gun point. One is killing mercilessly while the other one is just trying to survive.
 

Jeremy Feifer

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Uh, no. If I refused a direct order to kill innocent civilians I would be shot on the spot. If I refused and it went to a board of inquiry, it would by my superior officer being court-martialed, not me. I would have no fear of persecution.

I would say the believer is more guilty than the man who committed it at gun point. One is killing mercilessly while the other one is just trying to survive.
That is such a "human" way of looking at this...
 

cF=)

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I would say the believer is more guilty than the man who committed it at gun point. One is killing mercilessly while the other one is just trying to survive.
To the eyes of the law, didn't you killed on purpose in both situation ? The one who believes in his action might still not go out on a rampage to show what he thinks, but he would still commit crime whenever the situation shows up. It's the same thing for the gun point killing, you might regret wholeheartedly what you did, but the one you killed won't come back, and this also calls for punishment.
 

snex

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committing a crime "under duress" is not punishable in the united states. "under duress" is a direct and apparent threat, however; whereas the nuremburg defense merely offers that it is following orders from a superior.

if youll notice, it wasnt the individual soldiers at the nuremburg trials, it was the higher ups who would not have been "shot on the spot" for disobeying.
 
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