The next iteration of Lucas. The subject of balance.

[Ace Turner]

I think Lucas in 3.02 is brilliant. I hope he isn't changed at all when they update.

 

[Eisen]

Up throw is fine as a kill, I think, just not as strong as it is. Someone once suggested it be nerfed to Diddy's upthrow kill-tier or a little stronger. I think that'd be fair. At the very least, changing the trajectory on it.

My growing opinion (especially after finishing mother 3) is to allow Lucas to keep his charge, but reduce/halve the damage gained from OU. It's just more canon and offers a different perspective on charge moves. The no-keep-on-hit-confirm-but-high-damage OU idea would be fine too, but I prefer the former.

Magnet stall should indeed only work on the first use. I didn't know Mario's cape worked that way, though. Sounds reasonable as 8adge stated.

Dair is just obviously something that needs to be fixed no question. Whether the SDI is made easier, 4 hits instead of 3 are given to both so you can't just SH spam it > knock the opponent up, or both, I think it'll be an improvement to remove the infinite first.

And finally yes, grab's active frames should be toned down.

(actually, not finally) The LAST last thing to change is to nerf OU burst. Shouldn't be an extra kill move, nor should it have invincibility, imo. I'd like to hear some counterarguments to that though, because in general I dislike invincibility on attacks but PM seems to have a fair bit of it.

Also, lol ez please don't talk about nerfing Lucas' non-OU upsmash size. It's a really laggy move, only does 21% and requires skill to land consistently on good players. Maybe OU upsmash is a little ridiculous yeah, but c'mon now. His regular upsmash isn't even a problem.

 

[Master WGS]

If OU Burst is supposed to be a table-turning/combo-breaker thing, I think the invincibility is crucial. If we're making it more of a reaction/punish move, then the invincibility isn't as important. I'd like, rather than so much knockback, for it to be a big stun so you can instead start your OWN combo in response to maybe a sloppy combo from an opponent. Maybe not a TON but something maybe a little less than PKF or that neighborhood.

 

[Eisen]

Behold. I give you the best Lucas moveset edit I can do for now, if anyone feels like testing this with friends/wifi.

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-design-in-pm.362737/page-2#post-17202988

Thoughts?

 

[Eisen]

Sorry to double post, but here's the latest. I fixed the kbg on his upthrow so it kills a bit more reasonably (imo). Same with upsmash. It's a little buffed from my previous build. OU usmash kills bowser on SV at ~103, whereas usmash kills at about 111%. Also, dash grab shouldn't last as long.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mp9tfyrszgt8v9z/FitLucasNerfX+Grab+Throw.pac

Something I also have been thinking about is this:

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-design-in-pm.362737/page-3#post-17205235

Something to consider, I guess. I've been up a while though, so I could just be out of it.

 

[Eisen]

Triple post, but I have yet another update. I made it the day of my last post, but I figured I'd posted enough and was waiting for a response. With the advent of 3.5's changes announced today, I'd like to stress even more this updated PSA. Still doesn't have magnet stalling toned down, but it generally is better, I think.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vha31s4scgc72cx/FitLucasNerfX+grab+throw+OU+bthrow.pac

- OU burst itself no longer kills, but has a generally-set knockback. It keeps invincibility and frame data otherwise though. Its use is to be exclusively for "get off me"/neutral reset stuff, but it could become predictable and is now easier to challenge/has more risk.

- B throw I changed just as something experimental. It's what you might call a "bad throw" in that it does not kill at all and sends at a low angle. There's little knockback growth on it at all, but just enough to keep it from being super predictable. The purpose of this was, again, experimental. I want to see what it could be like if Lucas had a throw like this. It has multiple uses, though. Firstly, depending on the opponent weight/DI/position, they will either:

- Hit the floor and can tech/getup
- Hit a platform and can tech/getup
- Be able to jump out of it
- Be thrown offstage at a lower-but-not-far angle

While the throw isn't all that good in itself, nor does it combo into anything because of how laggy the throw is, it allows Lucas to potentially set up for a tech chase if the opponent predicts up/down throw or techs it poorly, etc. I feel this is something his pressure game could greatly benefit from, but not directly. It's more like... the throw gives him a more cohesive style for all his options instead of just being another kill move like his old bthrow. All I need to do now is make sure that I didn't miss something and the move doesn't some how connect to some infinite string. So please, PLEASE test this one out for me, guys.

Edit: Also, forgot to mention B-throw sets up for gimps offstage, but it WILL NOT give you a low angle kill unless the opponent is at like, 300%. But even then, like I said, it's laggy, so your opponent has plenty of time to react and recover accordingly. They should be looking out for that throw near an edge anyway.

Lucas in 3.02 is just silly because... Why does he have 2 kill throws, a kill-setup throw, a super-kill upsmash, good f-smash, major-damage d-smash, good normals that can also kill at decent percent, a spike/kill move in one, a good meteor, a kill move out of an invincible 3-frame move, a good recovery, etc. all on top of his pressure game? Lucas should be a rushdown pressure character who benefits from his pressure, not a character you can play in practically any style, use any move, etc and get away with it. To top it off, he needs weaknesses, which is something I haven't even addressed yet. His current weight/comboability is a good weakness, and I think 3.5 will take care of his recovery not being a weakness, so.

Also, does anyone know how I would go about showing this to someone in the BR? I really want to be a part of the Lucas project.

 

[Booster]

All I can say is that I don't want his Neutral B move to be taken away, it's my favorite move in Project M

 

[Eisen]

All I can say is that I don't want his Neutral B move to be taken away, it's my favorite move in Project M

If you're referring to my post, it's not removed, just not a kill move every time you press B.

If you're talking about in general/for 3.5 though, yeah I'd be sad too. It makes Lucas unique and adds canonical spicing to his moveset.

 

[Booster]

If you're referring to my post, it's not removed, just not a kill move every time you press B.

If you're talking about in general/for 3.5 though, yeah I'd be sad too. It makes Lucas unique and adds canonical spicing to his moveset.

I like it because it's alot more useful then a hard to aim projectile like PK Freeze

 

[Kipcom]

I just realized that I never used the OU burst to kill, even though I knew about the insane knock back at high percents long ago.

I should probably use it to take stocks just for fun, but honestly if it had set knockback, I wouldn't mind. I pretty much only use it at the beginning of a stock after charging and they're in my face, or as an OoS option.

I'm really tempted to test out those changes of yours, Eisen. I'll apply them to my game tomorrow and see what I think about them!

 

[Mister the Wizard]

I haven't read everyone's responses so I don't know exactly how the discussion here is going, but I do feel that his charged smashes need to only be one time use. I think it's ridiculous that you get the charge back. I would also be fine with his up throw/up smash getting nerfed, one or the other. The only other thing I've really noticed is that having 2 spikes (B-air sweetspot and D-air 3rd hit) is kind of ridiculous. I would lean towards keeping the dair spike as thats harder to hit while making the B-air spike a meteor. His Bair already has crazy killing power, no need for a spike.

 

[Kipcom]

I haven't read everyone's responses so I don't know exactly how the discussion here is going, but I do feel that his charged smashes need to only be one time use. I think it's ridiculous that you get the charge back. I would also be fine with his up throw/up smash getting nerfed, one or the other. The only other thing I've really noticed is that having 2 spikes (B-air sweetspot and D-air 3rd hit) is kind of ridiculous. I would lean towards keeping the dair spike as thats harder to hit while making the B-air spike a meteor. His Bair already has crazy killing power, no need for a spike.

Well to be fair, Neon did have a point about how you have to charge completely before being able to even get its benefits.
If you could partially charge it for just slightly stronger smash attacks and bursts, then I think making it a one time thing would be useful. As of now, I think it's fine. The charged smash attacks should probably just be weaker, but if that happens (and it most likely will), then Lucas should definitely keep the charge. Weaker smash attacks AND losing your charge after every successful burst or smash attack seems a really huge and unnecessary nerf imo.

 

[Mister the Wizard]

It's funny to see the complaints about lucas and talk of him being OP when he's winning how often? Exactly...he's not winning tournies often at all. This character is somewhere between 6-10 on the tier list at best. He should definitely retain his neutral b charge after connecting a hit with it. If you take that away the charge becomes useless as basically the only time to get a charge is during invincibility on a new stock. Leave his magnet alone, it was already nerfed! For those of you complaining about lucas's recovery you're just noobs. I can name at least 8-10 characters with better recoveries, plus, Lucas can get gimped super easily. Characters that are proficient at over the ledge battling or characters with multiple jumps can dominate lucas once over the ledge (meta, m2, kirby, d3, ect). As for his dair infinite...show me someone abusing it and then i'll agree to change his dair at all. The only merited nerf I can agree with is raising the percentage on upthrow kill by around 8/9% or so.

The real truth is, kids getting salty about lucas because they can't DI properly and hit their techs and don't have enough mind games to figure out how to punish his recovery so they say NERF him. Learn to adapt.

I heartily agree with you. I'm just glancing through this whole discussion, but what you said here stood out to me. I am personally a HUGE fan of the current magnet mechanics, I don't think it needs to be changed at all. I also think that his recovery is deceptive and not as good as some would think like you said. Yes, he can recover from far away sure, but if you go against anyone with experience you'll realize how predictable and easy to gimp it really is. It's far, but it's slow. And the idea of D-air infinite is absurd tbh, it's so hard to land (for me at least) consistently. The only thing that I think really needs to be nerfed is the up throw. But like you said, I think what it really comes down to is people getting owned and thinking that Lucas is a God, when really they just got outplayed. You can't nerf a character just cuz they won, that's childish.

 

[Mister the Wizard]

Well to be fair, Neon did have a point about how you have to charge completely before being able to even get its benefits.
If you could partially charge it for just slightly stronger smash attacks and bursts, then I think making it a one time thing would be useful. As of now, I think it's fine. The charged smash attacks should probably just be weaker, but if that happens (and it most likely will), then Lucas should definitely keep the charge. Weaker smash attacks AND losing your charge after every successful burst or smash attack seems a really huge and unnecessary nerf imo.

I didn't think about that, but that makes a lot of sense. You know, the more I read what you all are saying and the more I think about it, I think Lucas is a really balanced character.

 

[Eisen]

I haven't read everyone's responses so I don't know exactly how the discussion here is going, but I do feel that his charged smashes need to only be one time use. I think it's ridiculous that you get the charge back. I would also be fine with his up throw/up smash getting nerfed, one or the other. The only other thing I've really noticed is that having 2 spikes (B-air sweetspot and D-air 3rd hit) is kind of ridiculous. I would lean towards keeping the dair spike as thats harder to hit while making the B-air spike a meteor. His Bair already has crazy killing power, no need for a spike.

Feel free to try out my nerfed-Lucas mod from a few posts up. It takes care of a few issues. His upthrow isn't a strong as Mewtwo's, but stronger than Diddy's. His keeps his smash charges upon hit confirm, but they do much less %. I tried fixing dair to be not so strong, but if I did that, I think there'd be more problems with him spamming dair > dair combos onstage. His burst move (neutral B charged) no longer kills, either. Sounds like you might be interested in it.

 

[Mister the Wizard]

Sure. I mean when I go to tournaments I might as well take advantage of everything I have but in my free time/with friends I'll be sure to check it out

 

[Kipcom]

@ Eisen , I finally tried out your nerfs!

Honestly, it's pretty solid, other than the back throw, which I don't like that much. Mainly because it's pretty laggy after throwing and like you said, they recover out of the stun pretty fast. Then again, you did say it was a good setup for gimps/edgeguards, so I tried it out, and honestly, I can see the potential in it. It feels like there's more reward for getting the edgeguard afterwards than just throwing them back (although predicting their DI and throwing them backwards for the kill is also rewarding imo ).

Up throw seems pretty reasonable and seems like it can still kill, but only at a much higher percent. I'd say this is a pretty reasonable nerf you made, also because it's a pretty expected nerf anyway.

Charged Smashes feels the same to me, mainly because I don't pay attention to the percents when I do them anyway, so no issues here.

Good stuff, Eisen.


EDIT: If PMBR could include that back throw into the next update, I definitely think it would have a lot more use to it, especially with the huge nerfs to recoveries most characters are getting (including Lucas). It's potential would really be expanded on.

 

[Kipcom]

Double post, but I feel like we should also discuss this whole tether nerf situation. What do you guys think about this and how much do you think this will affect characters like Lucas/Link/Samus?

For anyone of those who actually don't already know, Z-tethers are being limited to only 1 tether per air time now, while Special (Up-B) tethers will get 2 per air time. If someone is hanging on the ledge and you reel in, you'll get forced to jump the ledge with 50 frames of lag, with an additional 30 frame frames of lag once you land. So basically over a whole a whole second of lag on your character.

Thoughts on this?

 

[Mister the Wizard]

Idk. Either his tether needs to be nerfed and his grab kept the same or his grab nerfed and his tether kept the same if you ask me.

 

[drummaniac28]

Idk. Either his tether needs to be nerfed and his grab kept the same or his grab nerfed and his tether kept the same if you ask me.

Well they already confirmed that they're nerfing tethers so that solves that problem lol

 

[Eisen]

I think the tether nerfs were fine without the additional landing lag. From what I understand, it gives the edge hogger more than a second to punish the tether character. I don't see why that much is necessary, but oh well. I'll adapt.

I appreciate the feedback, @ Kipcom . The back throw, again, isn't immediately obviously useful, but trust me, it has its potential uses. Probably would be more common/useful than, say, seeing Fox/Falco fairs and Lucas' on fthrow, but not so strong as to render it a substitute for up-throw's gimped kill power on heavies/spacies.

The OU upsmash in that build does 26% at the tip and 23% on the body hitbox. I toned down the knockback growth on the body hitbox, and buffed the outside box. This was partly to compensate for the decreased damage, but also because in previous tests, the reward for landing the OU upsmash just wasn't very significant (only a few % difference in kill power), so I beefed it. It's less powerful than 3.02's overall, though. I also decreased the hitbox size if you didn't notice that. In 3.02, OU upsmash hits characters on the top platform of Yoshi's Story when executed from the main floor of the stage. This was unnecessary, as much as it was unnecessary that it engulfed entire platforms for some reason. Like I said, you could have someone on a platform above Lucas, and not even have to read their getup attack/roll/tech; as long as you timed the upsmash right you could hit them. Any character.

Also, I feel we ought to discuss how his new 3.5 recovery will work. Personally, I think it's pretty much exactly where I want it. Not too good at stalls, tether isn't dumb, and up B sounds like it isn't going to be complete butt anymore. I mean, I personally recover mix-up a lot these days with up B and get away with it, but when people actually try to bat it away in 3.02, it just looks too easy.

The multiple magnet stall definitely wasn't necessary, but the single was for Lucas' offensive strategy. So I'm glad the compromise magnet happened. It'll take me some time to get used to not being able to fake people out as much with multi magnet stalls onstage into a djc drop aerial...

Aside from that, I think one shortsight in my build was dair. When I thought about it after releasing it (and losing access to being able to mod movesets), I realized that Lucas doesn't need a quick startup meteor that you have little time to get out of once you get caught off guard by the first hit which you can ALSO cross up opponents with for pressure and popups with shorthops. Think about most dairs in smash. They're usually either multi-hit, quick moves that send generally upwards/out, or a meteor/spike move with an "opening" animation (See: Falcon/Ganon bringing up their knees/legs just before their dairs). Lucas' has the best of both worlds. Quick opening with no chance to react to it if done straight on you (if you're on the receiving end of the dair), hardly any chance to get out. If you're on the ground, it pops you up for a combo. If you're in shield, it's quite effective at pressuring it. If you're in the air, it knocks you down to the ground. If you're offstage/at the ledge, you're dead at like 40-90% (I think?). In summary, the move needs to be one or the other. I'd rather see it used as a crossup/pressure/combo tool since Lucas already has a spike and generally decent offstage game. More tools to compliment his pressure game would be nice. I feel it ought to be something akin to his Brawl dair. 4 hits, for one. And for another, a little bit more landing lag on it would probably suit it. This way, the Lucas would have to drop down from a distance to get that fourth popup hit, so it's not just something you can sh and cross up a shield on, although the shorter/weaker hits would be useful for.

I dunno, it's still a wonky concept, trying to fix his dair and all. I never thought I'd say this, but sometimes I want his 2.5b dair and bair to come back. I don't know how 2.6+ bair compares to the 2.5 counterpart, but I know 2.5's seemed to be a good finisher that was also good at pressuring with DJC, because it was so threatening. I've been implementing 3.0's bair into my pressure tonight, and it seems to suit it well, but it also doesn't feel as suited as 2.5's. I almost thought I heard they had the same "final" hitbox though and speed. I'm not sure... Though, 3.0's is a really nice tool for hitting enemies in the "above and behind" position and knocks down to the ground on a nice angle with the spike hitbox, in addition to the massive coverage of its hitbox arc. It's also something spacies don't have over Lucas... Argh. There are benefits to both. But I suppose 3.0's in the end do feel "better" to me. I want to experiment with both sets though. Hell, I'd actually like to try combinations like 3.0 bair + 2.5 dair just for kicks. It's been a while since I've played 2.5, and I've learned so much since then. I have to wonder if I missed out on anything. I get the sense that 2.5's modified aerials were better suited for Lucas as a pressure character, while 3.0's aerials are just... better in general.

Would anybody happen to know where to find a copy of 2.5's Lucas files? I'm going to be gone for about a week without internet, but when I get back, I'd like to mess with those...

 

[victinivcreate1]

I see no reason to nerf Lucas, he has exploitable weaknesses that actually shut him down (like the Link match up irc)

People who complain about Lucas are almost always ones who don't know how to play the matchup correctly.

It's funny to see the complaints about lucas and talk of him being OP when he's winning how often? Exactly...he's not winning tournies often at all. This character is somewhere between 6-10 on the tier list at best. He should definitely retain his neutral b charge after connecting a hit with it. If you take that away the charge becomes useless as basically the only time to get a charge is during invincibility on a new stock. Leave his magnet alone, it was already nerfed! For those of you complaining about lucas's recovery you're just noobs. I can name at least 8-10 characters with better recoveries, plus, Lucas can get gimped super easily. Characters that are proficient at over the ledge battling or characters with multiple jumps can dominate lucas once over the ledge (meta, m2, kirby, d3, ect). As for his dair infinite...show me someone abusing it and then i'll agree to change his dair at all. The only merited nerf I can agree with is raising the percentage on upthrow kill by around 8/9% or so.

The real truth is, kids getting salty about lucas because they can't DI properly and hit their techs and don't have enough mind games to figure out how to punish his recovery so they say NERF him. Learn to adapt.

This needs to end.
I get it, you guys want your character to stay the way he is. I'm a Mewtwo main, I know the feeling. Half of us Mewtwos are called frauds for pete's sake because we main him. I remember Kaos saying he raged at LTC2 (I think it was LTC2) because everyone was like "oh Mewtwo main, he's probably gonna get high in bracket because the character is broken, and the player is average".

Like Mewtwo, Lucas has some serious issues that need to be addressed, OTHER than his recovery, which is being addressed. I'll address those two in my long post.
1. Shorter tether/no regrab (addressed, from 50 to 35 units. Still good, not overly good).
2. PSI Magnet one mid air stall use (addressed).
3. Offense Up. I like this. I think its pretty sick and the smashes are hella flashy. But to be honest, why is it that OU Up Smash can hit the TOP platform of Yoshi's Story (Melee)? I mean none of his other OU Smashes get this kind of boost. TBH OU Up Smash is kinda insane, because one he can combo into it, can DACUS with hit (I mean going nearly all the way across Green Hill Zone with a move that has absolutely insane vertical range and deceptive horizontal range as well is kinda broken IMO). OU should be a one time usage even if he connects with it, and his up smash should have less insane vertical range. Also, perhaps make OU smashes have less shield push back? I mean sometimes I'm playing as Snake, and I get hit by an OU Smash and I go sliding back really far. Its virtually unpunishable on block. To buff this, I think the "burst" attack should be a bit stronger. Horizontal KO move at 120?
4. Tether Grab's super long grab hitbox duration. Grab hitbox duration should not be nearly that long. I one time spotdodged a Lucas' grab as Mewtwo and this grab OUTLASTED the spotdodge.
5. Back air. I really think this move is flat out stupid. I mean many characters have moves where both sweet and sour spots are useful, but Lucas does not need this. His character design rewards good spacing and thus an improperly spaced bair should be nowhere near as powerful as it is in 3.02.
6. Up Throw. Unnecessary kill throw. He has powerful non OU Smashes, OU Smashes, a spike with low risk, forward air, a meteor smash? Does not need a throw to kill.
7. DACUS. Overly long. I don't know the full mechanics of it but if there was a way to shorten it (whether it'd be decrease momentum from dash attack, or decrease jump squat frames, which technically gives him better shield pressure, or something else entirely) it should be fixed. This character never even had a DACUS in Brawl to begin with lol. Why does he have one, and at that the LONGEST one?
8. PK Freeze. The move pops up. This is me being nitpicky, and he isn't the only character with this problem (cough Pit). But its somewhat silly and unnecessary, because Lucas already has great juggle setups/ options.

As for people saying this character is not OP, well look at what he as in 3.02. Think about it. Pink Fresh lost to Rolex (and he isn't even the best Snake) twice. Yet the games were relatively close, despite the fact that Snake is significantly worse than Lucas (they go even in punish game arguably, Lucas beats him in all other areas and has an especially easy time juggling Snake and beating his approaches). Rolex is likely notably better than Fresh. But Fresh still does well against him. Why? I'm inclined to say because of Lucas' overwhelming strengths outdoing his weaknesses. Neon is obviously very good. But to say he is better than one of the Melee gods (Mew2King) and arguably the most talented Project M player (Sethlon)? I think something's a little off there. Especially since earlier this year (back in May/June iirc) I remember Neon was going roughly even with Kaos, the Mewtwo player.

I don't like removing things. Lucas is meant to be played like a slippery, combo oriented character, I'm just saying that his offensive power is a bit too strong, like Mewtwo, Diddy Kong and Pit's. Nerf his offensive options a bit (but not outright removing them) is the way to go when balancing a character like this. He's really cool and well done, but the PMDT clearly had too much favoritism with this character. His weaknesses are there, but they need to be somewhat more apparent. Instead of giving him more weaknesses, just nerf his offensive power a bit so his weaknesses are a bit more apparent.

 

[Lukingordex]

I don't think the reason Neon beat M2K was the character. Neon is godlike, don't underestimate him.

As for Pink Fresh, before he came to Project M, he was one of the best brawl Lucas players, he just happened to adapt his playstyle to a better Lucas.

 

[Eisen]

This needs to end.
I get it, you guys want your character to stay the way he is. I'm a Mewtwo main, I know the feeling. Half of us Mewtwos are called frauds for pete's sake because we main him. I remember Kaos saying he raged at LTC2 (I think it was LTC2) because everyone was like "oh Mewtwo main, he's probably gonna get high in bracket because the character is broken, and the player is average".

Like Mewtwo, Lucas has some serious issues that need to be addressed, OTHER than his recovery, which is being addressed. I'll address those two in my long post.
1. Shorter tether/no regrab (addressed, from 50 to 35 units. Still good, not overly good).
2. PSI Magnet one mid air stall use (addressed).
3. Offense Up. I like this. I think its pretty sick and the smashes are hella flashy. But to be honest, why is it that OU Up Smash can hit the TOP platform of Yoshi's Story (Melee)? I mean none of his other OU Smashes get this kind of boost. TBH OU Up Smash is kinda insane, because one he can combo into it, can DACUS with hit (I mean going nearly all the way across Green Hill Zone with a move that has absolutely insane vertical range and deceptive horizontal range as well is kinda broken IMO). OU should be a one time usage even if he connects with it, and his up smash should have less insane vertical range. Also, perhaps make OU smashes have less shield push back? I mean sometimes I'm playing as Snake, and I get hit by an OU Smash and I go sliding back really far. Its virtually unpunishable on block. To buff this, I think the "burst" attack should be a bit stronger. Horizontal KO move at 120?
4. Tether Grab's super long grab hitbox duration. Grab hitbox duration should not be nearly that long. I one time spotdodged a Lucas' grab as Mewtwo and this grab OUTLASTED the spotdodge.
5. Back air. I really think this move is flat out stupid. I mean many characters have moves where both sweet and sour spots are useful, but Lucas does not need this. His character design rewards good spacing and thus an improperly spaced bair should be nowhere near as powerful as it is in 3.02.
6. Up Throw. Unnecessary kill throw. He has powerful non OU Smashes, OU Smashes, a spike with low risk, forward air, a meteor smash? Does not need a throw to kill.
7. DACUS. Overly long. I don't know the full mechanics of it but if there was a way to shorten it (whether it'd be decrease momentum from dash attack, or decrease jump squat frames, which technically gives him better shield pressure, or something else entirely) it should be fixed. This character never even had a DACUS in Brawl to begin with lol. Why does he have one, and at that the LONGEST one?
8. PK Freeze. The move pops up. This is me being nitpicky, and he isn't the only character with this problem (cough Pit). But its somewhat silly and unnecessary, because Lucas already has great juggle setups/ options.

As for people saying this character is not OP, well look at what he as in 3.02. Think about it. Pink Fresh lost to Rolex (and he isn't even the best Snake) twice. Yet the games were relatively close, despite the fact that Snake is significantly worse than Lucas (they go even in punish game arguably, Lucas beats him in all other areas and has an especially easy time juggling Snake and beating his approaches). Rolex is likely notably better than Fresh. But Fresh still does well against him. Why? I'm inclined to say because of Lucas' overwhelming strengths outdoing his weaknesses. Neon is obviously very good. But to say he is better than one of the Melee gods (Mew2King) and arguably the most talented Project M player (Sethlon)? I think something's a little off there. Especially since earlier this year (back in May/June iirc) I remember Neon was going roughly even with Kaos, the Mewtwo player.

I don't like removing things. Lucas is meant to be played like a slippery, combo oriented character, I'm just saying that his offensive power is a bit too strong, like Mewtwo, Diddy Kong and Pit's. Nerf his offensive options a bit (but not outright removing them) is the way to go when balancing a character like this. He's really cool and well done, but the PMDT clearly had too much favoritism with this character. His weaknesses are there, but they need to be somewhat more apparent. Instead of giving him more weaknesses, just nerf his offensive power a bit so his weaknesses are a bit more apparent.

Three things I see I don't agree with:

1. Bair is fine. It has a LOT of startup and doesn't kill insanely early. I think it'd be fine if they left it as is but toned Lucas down in general on his kill moves (e.g. kill throw, killing pk burst, OU power, dair).
2. PK Freeze is fine. The move takes somewhere around 15-26 frames to come out depending on where you launch it (I'm not sure how it differs). For a projectile, that's pretty bad. It's just accentuated by the fact that his power and combos are ****ing STUPID. Lucas is different from Falco because his PKF isn't an ultra-spammable laser; the diversity is needed.
3. PK burst does NOT need to be a kill move PERIOD. A 3 frame intangible move does not need to kill, especially at 120. That'd make him probably more broken than he is currently.

In light of recent events, I'd do this to Lucas:

1. Nerf upthrow to kill slightly earlier/later than diddy's upthrow; give it a trajectory angle of about 60-65.
2. nerf downthrow so it's not so easy to follow up with (perhaps have a higher base KB, lower KBG, kinda like Samus' downthrow)
3. Give more endlag (or startup?) to: Nair and dair
4. Give dair 4 even-powered hits, and have their hitboxes act similarly to Samus' fair/upsmash hits, perhaps a little less SDI-able (the 4 hits and endlag ensures you can't just sh dair spam for days)
5. Make OU burst NOT a kill move
6. Nerf all OU smashes to do only 5% more than their counterparts
7. OU upsmash size decreased to slightly bigger than normal upsmash, does 27% at the big hitbox, 23% on Lucas' body
8. SLIGHTLY nerf normal F-smash
9. (as an alternative to giving nair more endlag) Reduce the kill power on nair, so it's more like Pikachu's fair; probably would still need more endlag than it has now.
10. Make magnet +/-0 on shield instead of +2
11. Repurpose B-throw to a low-trajectory, non-spacie-kill-throw
12. slightly less active grabframes on grab
(everything else is already known to be addressed [magnet stall, tether length, recovery buffs])

 

[robosteven]

...does he even need Offense-Up at all? I was under the impression that he already had some great smashes.

 

[Eisen]

5% isn't that much of an increase, considering how top Lucases play. My opinion, anyway.

 

[robosteven]

5% isn't that much of an increase, considering how top Lucases play. My opinion, anyway.

I thought it was more of a knockback increase, I didn't know it only increased his attack power by 5%. That's not too bad.

It's still a really strange move though.

 

[Eisen]

I thought it was more of a knockback increase, I didn't know it only increased his attack power by 5%. That's not too bad.

It's still a really strange move though.

No no, they don't do 5% more now.

usmash: 21% - OU usmash- 32% (11% change)
Dsmash: 31% - OU dsmash - 47% (16%)
Fsmash: 16 % - OU Fsmash: 24% (8%)

 

[robosteven]

No no, they don't do 5% more now.

usmash: 21% - OU usmash- 32% (11% change)
Dsmash: 31% - OU dsmash - 47% (16%)
Fsmash: 16 % - OU Fsmash: 24% (8%)

oh jeez

Well, I guess I might as well bring up my previous post. Does Lucas need offense-up?

I say no, and am in favor of him having something else. No idea what it would be though.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Three things I see I don't agree with:

1. Bair is fine. It has a LOT of startup and doesn't kill insanely early. I think it'd be fine if they left it as is but toned Lucas down in general on his kill moves (e.g. kill throw, killing pk burst, OU power, dair).
2. PK Freeze is fine. The move takes somewhere around 15-26 frames to come out depending on where you launch it (I'm not sure how it differs). For a projectile, that's pretty bad. It's just accentuated by the fact that his power and combos are ****ing STUPID. Lucas is different from Falco because his PKF isn't an ultra-spammable laser; the diversity is needed.
3. PK burst does NOT need to be a kill move PERIOD. A 3 frame intangible move does not need to kill, especially at 120. That'd make him probably more broken than he is currently.

In light of recent events, I'd do this to Lucas:

1. Nerf upthrow to kill slightly earlier/later than diddy's upthrow; give it a trajectory angle of about 60-65. Doesn't need a kill throw. Diddy never even had one either, IDK why he has one.
2. nerf downthrow so it's not so easy to follow up with (perhaps have a higher base KB, lower KBG, kinda like Samus' downthrow). Honestlt this throw is fine. There are no real immediate problems with it.
3. Give more endlag (or startup?) to: Nair and dair
4. Give dair 4 even-powered hits, and have their hitboxes act similarly to Samus' fair/upsmash hits, perhaps a little less SDI-able (the 4 hits and endlag ensures you can't just sh dair spam for days)
5. Make OU burst NOT a kill move. Yeah I could agree with this too.
6. Nerf all OU smashes to do only 5% more than their counterparts Yeah I could agree with this too.
7. OU upsmash size decreased to slightly bigger than normal upsmash, does 27% at the big hitbox, 23% on Lucas' body
8. SLIGHTLY nerf normal F-smash. IMO doesn't really need a nerf.
9. (as an alternative to giving nair more endlag) Reduce the kill power on nair, so it's more like Pikachu's fair; probably would still need more endlag than it has now. IDK why Nair had kill power in the first place. Should not have kill power.
10. Make magnet +/-0 on shield instead of +2 how bout -1? The fact that Lucas has better shield pressure than 2 out of 3 spacies is silly.
11. Repurpose B-throw to a low-trajectory, non-spacie-kill-throw. No real need for kill throw. Even in Brawl he didn't really have these, he just had decent throws.
12. slightly less active grabframes on grab Grabs should not be beating spotdodges. Not slightly less, you mean wayyy less.
(everything else is already known to be addressed [magnet stall, tether length, recovery buffs])

 

[Kipcom]

His standing grab is fine and is easy to spotdodge (Honestly, if someone has trouble spotdodging this, then their* timing is just really bad). It's his dash grab that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Isn't it like...15 or 16 active frames on his dash grab? That's rather dumb...

 

[Eisen]

By non-spacie-kill-throw, I meant that it's NOT a kill throw that kills spacies, which is basically all it's used for right now. Not spacies get uthrown to death, and b-throw kills spacies. I'm saying it needs to not kill at all. As for his uthrow killing, you really should be killing before 150% anyway, which is about where I'd say this killthrow should kill at on average. Marth for example gets a 170-180ish kill throw AND combo kill throws. Lucas should have a worse downthrow setupability, not-killing bthrow, and worse uthrow kill power.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I don't think the reason Neon beat M2K was the character. Neon is godlike, don't underestimate him.

As for Pink Fresh, before he came to Project M, he was one of the best brawl Lucas players, he just happened to adapt his playstyle to a better Lucas.

PF was one of the best. At APEX 2013 he got 97th I believe. Yes Brawl Lucas is significantly worse in terms of balance. But Mekos was destroying people with Lucas. Mekos is significantly better than Fresh as a Lucas main.

As for Neon? It was definitely the character. Axe 3-0'd him. Neon in reality is not a god. Especially since Lucas has every tool needed to succeed. Now if Lucas was lacking in neutral and Neon was beating Mew2King in neutral by a long shot? Ok sure. But Lucas has a solid neutral game.

PF and Neon are like Emukiller and Frozen. They're obviously good strong players, but their character is definitely broken and they have a lot to improve on fundamentally. The fundamentals are not there. Its literally get a autoconfirm hit and everything you hit with is a DI trap. This is an issue with much of PM.

Diddy Kong suffers this problem too. Thing is, Diddy has actual solid players behind the character. Junebug. Boss. Seagull Joe. EMP NinjaLink.

 

[Eisen]

An interesting theory I came across that I want to share with you guys; a form of balancing that focuses on accentuating a character's weaknesses but not so much their strengths. Granted, there's a level of offensive prowess I think we want to avoid here. I still stand by what I said in the last post as a starting point for Lucas nerfs. It seems like a lot of neutering to his offensive game, but that's because it's literally that good compared to other characters.

So my question to you guys is: What do you think should be Lucas' strong points and weakpoints? What do YOU want out of this character?

Personally, I think something like this when I think of an idealized Lucas with balanced strengths and weaknesses:

- Extremely strong pressure/close up game
- Great Comboability, but not to the extent it is now per say
- Decent killpower
- Medium run speed (what it is now or a little slower)
- medium-bad weight/fall-speed ratio; Semi-fast faller (3.02's speed), Light-ish weight (A little lighter than he is now? Slightly easier to kill)
- Medium-bad recovery; slow and interceptable but decent length
- Bad with being juggled, comboed, a lot etc
- Biggest weakness is being zoned and combo'd (aka Link, Falco, Samus)

Let's take Marth as an example for comparison:

- Extremely good at spacing, good disjoints and grab range
- Great kill power for a good range of %s
- Good run speed
- Decent with combos, setups
- Average weight/fall speed
- Bad/predictable recovery
- Not as easy to kill with at higher %s
- Poor out of shield options

Thoughts?

 

[robosteven]

An interesting theory I came across that I want to share with you guys; a form of balancing that focuses on accentuating a character's weaknesses but not so much their strengths. Granted, there's a level of offensive prowess I think we want to avoid here. I still stand by what I said in the last post as a starting point for Lucas nerfs. It seems like a lot of neutering to his offensive game, but that's because it's literally that good compared to other characters.

So my question to you guys is: What do you think should be Lucas' strong points and weakpoints? What do YOU want out of this character?

I think his primary strong point should be his on-stage offense game, while his recovery should be either not that great or just okay. Honestly, I'd rather see Lucas as an all-around balance character as opposed to a pressure character, but offensive pressure seems to be the direction he's going in.

To compensate, I figure he should be pretty easy to combo (which he currently is) and/or have not-incredible recovery options.

...also he probably shouldn't have a super-easy kill-throw like he currently has.

also what's the deal with his neutral b

like, why

 

[Eisen]

Basically neutral B was like "OH, WHAT IF HE COULD DO THIS?? OH, OH, AND THEN MAYBE IT DOES THAT. ALSO THIS. ALSO DECENT KNOCKBACK. OH AND UH, GIVE IT INVINCIBILITY. THAT'D BE SO COOL GUYS. Also it'd be balanced."

 

[robosteven]

If they made it a get-off-me move that only did like 1% (or 0%) damage as PK Burst, I think that'd be a fine neutral-b.

...Did I read one post here right saying that it's currently a kill move? Like, it kills?

 

[Spice]

Spoiler alert: Lucas is one of the most changed characters in the upcoming 3.5 release. Pretty sure I'm not allowed to delve into details, but I played a bit of 3.5 with a P:M developer/backroom member/whatever you want to call it. He is quite a bit different from his current build, but so is everyone else. The game itself is changing massively, it will be quite a bit closer to Melee.

Sad to say, from my very limited experience, I don't think Lucas will be close to top 5, maybe not even top 10 in the upcoming release. I'm all for balance, but I am going to really miss this current build, he is sooooo much fun right now. I don't think he is broken either, he just has some things that could have been tweaked, rather than just downright changed.

Enjoy the current version while you can everyone. P:M is about to look very different.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Spoiler alert: Lucas is one of the most changed characters in the upcoming 3.5 release. Pretty sure I'm not allowed to delve into details, but I played a bit of 3.5 with a P:M developer/backroom member/whatever you want to call it. He is quite a bit different from his current build, but so is everyone else. The game itself is changing massively, it will be quite a bit closer to Melee.

Sad to say, from my very limited experience, I don't think Lucas will be close to top 5, maybe not even top 10 in the upcoming release. I'm all for balance, but I am going to really miss this current build, he is sooooo much fun right now. I don't think he is broken either, he just has some things that could have been tweaked, rather than just downright changed.

Enjoy the current version while you can everyone. P:M is about to look very different.

This is a victory and a loss. I wanted Lucas nerfed, but I didn't want Lucas mains to have to learn a basically completely new version of Lucas

 

[Eisen]

This is a victory and a loss. I wanted Lucas nerfed, but I didn't want Lucas mains to have to learn a basically completely new version of Lucas

Agreed with all of this. I'll withhold judgement for now, though. Sounds like more of what Mew2King dislikes about Project M: Massive nerfs before anyone learns counters (not to say Lucas isn't still OP, but just how OP would he be once people figured him out?).

Edit: As for the question, yes PK burst kills. At about 160-190 range, depending on the character. I don't know exact numbers, but it's been below 200% on everyone I've used it on so far.