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The new techniques and findings and random stuff thread

soap

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
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Cleveland, Ohio
this thread is to discuss all the random useful or non useful stuff that u discover, know about, theorize could work, whatever. Could be general character physics things, to random matchup tricks. Mainly stuff that isn't widely known and used already. This thread is about expanding..... and wasting time.;)

Random **** is kinda my specialty and I have alot of stuff backed up in my brain. Just wanted a place to jot it down as i remember it/stumble on new things, and to discuss potential uses. I'll start later.
 

SonuvaBeach

Smash Lord
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Location
Howell, MI
I have so many questions about auto-canceling soap, but many are probably best answered in a PM or somethin. I suppose auto-canceling isn't new though, just new to me.
 

soap

Smash Hero
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Run cancel up tilts. It's something that almost no one puts any emphasis on but is amazing. Better than a jab IMO.
ya it is pretty good. I use it mid combo alot. Its kinda akward to approach with cuz it has like no range, and is easy to stuff.

i do the running utilt in tech chases sometimes too. It kinda counters sidestep.

I have so many questions about auto-canceling soap, but many are probably best answered in a PM or somethin. I suppose auto-canceling isn't new though, just new to me.
o, just ask here. i like threads more than PM's or aim cuz info is shared;)

autocancels r like a fad i got into, i am finding useful ones with everybody. Like fox can full hop dair, it hits on the way up, fastfall at the last second, the last hit of the drill connects, and it autocancels. so u can like shine, rising full hop dair, go to the back of the shield, autocancel, utilt. and i think the dair to utilt is legit shield pressure.

but back to sheik, i had alot of stuff about fastfall needle charges i wanted to talk about.
 

soap

Smash Hero
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Location
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ok, so fastall needle charges, i found this to be extremely useful in a bunch of situations for needle control and spacing.

actually first im gonna discuss my basic projectile theory so i can put all the random techniques and stuff in context. (this might be a long post, feel free to skip first part, it will be rather basic.)

My theory with needles is that the needles that you are shooting, or even charging, (be it aerial or standing) should always be directed at the opponent so that you can actually hit them for one, secondly, the needles are actually pressuring them and not just creating a silly little wall that they can find ways around.

I hate to see sheiks just jumping in place on the edges of platforms spamming needles that clearly wont hit and end up getting rushed in between and ***** from below.

A. Falling Aerial needles

I like to think of falling aerial needles as a long fair, kinda like marths fair. Like marths fair, in order to connect it to other moves as well as keep it safe it has to be done as late as possible. Additionally, like with any aerials u r commiting to the air by jumping and are potentially leaving yourself open. In general it is better to stay on the ground the majority of the time where sheik has the most mobility and reaction.

But you can easily use the range of the aerial needles to outspace other moves and approaches that people commit too and net free grabs. The key is to use aerial needles when u know they wont be able to evade due to being in lag from their spaced move, or they simply dont expect it. Dont just jump and expect them to sit there and get needled. It is generally easier to do this defensively similar to marth retreating fair spacing. Offensively U can overshoot needles to the back of their dash dance and follow up from there.

To use aerial needles effectively and safely u really have to master the spacing and timing of the different heights with different needle counts.

Additonally, there exists areas in the centers of stages to the sides of the plats where needles provide quick easy approaches. However these hotspots are now pretty mainstream and well known to avoid. All i have to say to best use these, just jump up there to shoot ONCE when the spacing is right then follow up. If u miss get down immediately or run back and get down the other way. You missed, don't expect them to run into more needles if u just keep jumping and shooting.

Supercamping platforms is tedious, not to mention dangerous. If u r camping the platforms, at least approach when u finally get your opening. Pure needle damage is trivial.
B. Standing Needles
I used to think little of standing needles outside of the fully charged damage, and random chip damage. After all they dont autocancel like aerial needles so they dont really combo. I now feel like they are even more important and useful than aerial needles.

They control the entire ground level of most levels save big ones. Controlling an entire axis as opposed to a small area or point makes these alot easier to connect with. Due to the cooldown give yourself slightly more than a long short hop knees distance away to use standing needles safely. (spacing varies by character speed and physics obviously)

after u annoyed their aerial camp or dash dance with a few chip needles. They will try to approach around the next needle by either fulljumping over it, Or shielding and waveshielding out quickly. But this is good for you, by trying to get around your needles they create openings for you. charge some ground needles then when they jump, u store and rush them. From here it goes into your aerial interception, double jump/platform trapping games. (Id recommend some combination of patience>grab, or bair interception)


Fastfalling?
k, so when would u ever wanna fastfall before u shoot or charge up needles?

1. Double jump fastfall needles: (NOTE: not recommended as an approach) When forced to doublejump away from an attack, due to sheiks crap aerial mobility she is very vulnerable on FD with no platforms to retreat to. If u DI well, most people will run right up just shy of your aerial range and wait for your missed aerial so they can punish. Many times they unknowingly put themselves in range of your needles instead. You want to fastfall FIRST before pressing B. just tap down and the direction to shoot, then B. The fastfall leaves u much less vulnerable and helps to combo as their is a smaller window between your needle and your landing.

Additionally, top center platforms, notably dreamland, are ideal for running off and fastfall reverse needling back to ground floor. (fastfall does not work on battlefield)

Another way to space it, is to short hop off the top plat, then fastfall reverse needle onto the side plats.

U can even simply full hop, fastfall needle. But this has very little range and is not very useful.

2. Fastfall Needle charges:
This is an amazing way to transition between your aerial spacing/aerial needle game into standing needle pressure.

First off, u should know that when u start an aerial charge, then land, u go immediately into a standing needle charge with no regular landing animation. You should already see tons of potential in this. You could just full hop charge, and simply hold it all the way to the ground, then release the instant u land. Your opponent who ran back to evade your aerial "sheik zone" gets tagged with a bunch of ground needles.

Now add the fact that u can "fastfall charge, hold, release". And it significantly speeds up the transition to ground needles making it less predictable. For example, you simply short hop backwards to space a fair on an approach. They didnt bite at all. U fastfall charge, release the instant u land (practice this) and shoot a needle to entice them to approach

Even if u were setting up for a back air. U can fastfall reverse neede charge (quarter circle down) and release. Short hop back air fake to fully charged needles is a useful trick i started using when bair camping.

Off platforms: You missed an aerial platform needle? run off back fastfall reverse needle charge and instantly put the pressure back on.

Another example: Aerial needle charge, store, fastfall charge, release.

the goal is to be able to transition your needle pressure from the air to the ground in response to their actions.

As u can see there are tons more options with this. I cant list them all.

hope u enjoyed, i was bored ;)

edit - (jesus, i wrote a short novel)
 

SonuvaBeach

Smash Lord
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Howell, MI
Gotta go - but real quick here is my basic autocancel questions.
What moves autocancel? How do you autocancel? When/why would you use an autocancel move over an lcancel move? What should follow up from the autocancel move? Spacing?

I have read through and bookmarked your acslap post and fullhop acnair posts, but I couldn't find any really basic information about the autocancel itself through searching.
 

soap

Smash Hero
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Jan 24, 2006
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Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Gotta go - but real quick here is my basic autocancel questions.
What moves autocancel? How do you autocancel? When/why would you use an autocancel move over an lcancel move? What should follow up from the autocancel move? Spacing?

I have read through and bookmarked your acslap post and fullhop acnair posts, but I couldn't find any really basic information about the autocancel itself through searching.
here was an interesting magus post i read a while ago

All her aerials except dair autocancel in some useful form. And there are many different ways and timings to autocancel them. I can go through a couple useful ways i do it for each one.


u can look at the frame data for when stuff autocancels, but u really just have to get a feel for the timing. Why to autocancel? Well there is less lag. Sometimes u can get better range and spacing with the fastfall lcancel route though.

Note: if u dont understand how to read the data. for example fair is <4 11> this is read as less than 4, or greater than 11. If u land before the hitbox comes out on 5, or after frame 11, it autocancels. This is one of the sickest autocancels, as there r only 4 frames in between the hitbox on frames 5-7, and the move autocancelling at 11. So it is not that hard to get consistently either even with a fastfall. This is also better than waiting for the move to end in the air at frame 33.

by SuperDoodleMan


N-Air

Total: 48
Hit: 3-30
IASA: 42
Auto cancel: <2 31>
Landlag: 16
L canceled: 8
-------------------------------------
U-Air

Total: 39
Hit: 5-20
IASA: 37
Auto cancel: <4 30>
Landlag: 24
L canceled: 12
-------------------------------------
B-Air

Total: 37
Hit: 4-19
Auto cancel: <3 25>
Landlag: 16
L canceled: 8
-------------------------------------
D-Air

Total: 48
Hit: 15-33
Auto cancel: <2
Landlag: 20
L canceled: 10
-------------------------------------
F-Air

Total: 33
Hit: 5-7
Auto cancel: <4 11>
Landlag: 16
L canceled: 8
The only useful ones that can possibly replace a shffl (aka falling, still hit stuff on ground + autocancel) are the full hop fastfall nair, and the short hop fastfall fair. I thought that was pretty cool when i found it, so i made threads about it.

Uair:
short hop uair delayed or no fastfall ac's, can be used as safe platform pressure. Full hop uair onto platform ac's too. Useful for combos. If u wanna shffl this move and hit standing targets u must fastfall l cancel it.

Bair:
rising short hop bair, fastfall, will autocancel. This is useful cuz u can like, spam a whole lotta rising bairs pretty quick through approaches. Donkey Kong can do this too pretty good. Full hop rising bair onto platform autocancels as well.

Nair:
The fullhop fastfall version can be used as an approach. You are looking to intercept their jump, but had they shielded, u have some protection on the way down. Try to land on the back of the shield and immediately turn utilt/dsmash/grab.

short hop nair no fastfall autocancel can be used similarly. Drift through to the back of the shield.

Fair:
The short hop version will autocancel from the apex with a fastfall, and even below the apex to a degree with no fastfall. Note that u slightly decrease the range from a late fair, but it will still hit shields easily and is useful for shield pressure particularly against people that like to sidestep your aerials to mess up your lcancel timing. U dont have to lcancel so u no longer have to worry about it (yay!)

can also autocancel usefully from a full hop fastfall. U full hop, fastfall FIRST, then fair, has similar range. (kinda tricky timing this way, but pretty useful to use after a full hop needle charge store.)

fair also autocancels well onto platforms after a rising full hop.

NOTE: to quickly fall through again after autocancels onto platforms, isai drop is needed.

final note: just cuz the moves autocancel and are pretty safe to throw out, good people can still punish misses with precision overshooting. Play smart, dont spam;)
 

DtJ Jungle

Check out my character in #GranblueFantasy
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The add on this page for me is Spiral eye side threaded needles.

appropriate.
 

soap

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ive never seen that phanna thread.

this is useful to the current topic.

hitlag and shield stun:
Aerials

* 05 10 Back Air
* 06 12 Back Air (stale)
* 06 12 Down Air
* 07 14 Forward Air
* 07 15 Neutral Air
* 06 12 Neutral Air (stale)
* 07 14 Up Air
* 06 12 Up Air (stale)

i take it the second number minus the first is the frame advantage u get?

what if u do it real late and land during hitlag? Does your hitlag get cancelled by the ground?
 

SonuvaBeach

Smash Lord
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Sep 7, 2008
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Location
Howell, MI
Wow. Thanks soap. I'll have to start practicing using these in game play.

Curious, do you still press L/r to l-cancel when auto canceling? Obviously you don't need to, I mean out of habit. When practicing I can't tell if I am auto-canceling or L-canceling, but I'm too afraid to stop L-canceling because that habit took forever to ingrain into my head. ha. Is there any lag with auto-canceling at all? I see there is the L-cancel lag stats above, and none for ac, so I assume no.

There is so much to learn. Wow!
 

soap

Smash Hero
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technically there are still 4 frames of normal landing lag. So if u hit L quick enough and release, your shield wont come up after the autocancel.

i personally dont do this. i have faith in my autocancel timing.

if your shield accidentally comes up after the autocancel that'll slow u down

u should be able to tell the difference between autocancelling and landing with the lag. Just hold down. if u immediately land in a crouch, u autocancelled
 

KirbyKaze

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ive never seen that phanna thread.

this is useful to the current topic.

hitlag and shield stun:
Aerials

* 05 10 Back Air
* 06 12 Back Air (stale)
* 06 12 Down Air
* 07 14 Forward Air
* 07 15 Neutral Air
* 06 12 Neutral Air (stale)
* 07 14 Up Air
* 06 12 Up Air (stale)

i take it the second number minus the first is the frame advantage u get?

what if u do it real late and land during hitlag? Does your hitlag get cancelled by the ground?
no, hitlag occurs even if you get the hitbox out the frame before you hit the ground. you can input for l-cancel during hitlag, but you still gte delayed.

frame advantage would actually be
[#2] - [#1 + remaining air time]
 

soap

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frame advantage would actually be
[#2] - [#1 + remaining air time]
then wouldnt it really be:

[#2] - [#1 + remaining air time + landing lag]

it seems like not much of a frame advantage at all

and what about needles. they are disjointed so u don't experience any hitlag right? The chart has more hitlag frames than shieldstun. Is this basically the same thing regarding needles?
 

KirbyKaze

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You don't experience hitlag when you do needles, the needles are what get frozen in mid-air for however many frames.

And, you're right, with landing lag most things yield frame disadvantage. Aside from space animal shines and Peach FCs, not much gives frame advantage on shield after factoring in lag. Mercifully, most characters are slow out of shield (shield grab is 7, jumps add time to moves out of shield, etc) so we can work around that.
 

soap

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i didnt mean for the thread to devolve into a frame data discussion

it just happened to be relevant to conversation.

i should have been more concise.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
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College Park, MD
I don't like getting off topic. (Sorry Kitten-lovers). The information here is actually pretty useful. There have only ever been 3 things about Sheik that enticed me.

1. Her super fast, moderately long, and nearly lagless wavedash.
2. Her superior ability to platform camp.
3. Needle storing.

I don't really care that she has a godly dthrow, fair, jab, ftilt, bair, and dsmash. I just like the three things I listed. So I really appreciate the information on needles.

Actually, Soap, I started SH aerial reverse needle storing to bair after I saw your Sheik tech skill video. :)
 

cykofox

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kaze what do you think of shfair if they shield to immeidate nair after fair then they have enough hitstun and cant shieldgrab you
 

Teczer0

Research Assistant
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kaze what do you think of shfair if they shield to immeidate nair after fair then they have enough hitstun and cant shieldgrab you
There really is no need to do something immediately. As long as you space and do the fair relatively late you can do whatever you want.

Thats if they shield.... if they CC though its more :(
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
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Does SH > waveland backward > needles have any usefulness?

Maybe an okay way to hit some free damage (or a fully charged volley) if used in moderation.
 

DtJ Jungle

Check out my character in #GranblueFantasy
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hmm I've never used taht before.

I've done Sh > needle store > waveland backwards
 

pockyD

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assuming you didn't flub the timing, there is no downside, aside from the fact that you're just creating more work for yourself by pressing an extra button

actually i suppose that if the aerial completely finished and you're not just in the autocancel frames, you could potentially end up airdodging
 

soap

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id get in the habit of creating muscle memory for the autocancel by not hitting the button.

this will get u in the right mindset for how much lag u will be dealing with afterwards.

a lil drill i used to do was alternating sh autocancel fair, and fastfall l cancel, really quickly.
 

soap

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I sometimes do this fair you speak of.

But never intentionally =(.

Show me a video of you using this thing ****** people's faces Dave.
I was basically just practicing autocancels in this friendly ( I didn't tell my friend that:laugh:, but it was like every stock i picked a new move to practice spamming lmao)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODZvxOyCBNA

just go to around 1:50, im not even spacing the fair, but i land directly into a crouch with the autocancel, so i dont think ganon can grab that. And u can hit him before his slow jump

I do the nair ac alot too in this game. But its not really that good, he just wasnt crouch cancelling them.
 
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