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The (NEW) Lucas MU discussion center! (first discussion: MK)

Luco

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Hello there and welcome to the new and revamped Lucas MU discussion group!

Why was this thread created?

This thread was created as an attempt to revive discussion by the community on Lucas' match-ups. It is of general consensus that many of Lucas' MUs are currently outdated and in many cases need to be looked at again. This can serve as a portal between the MU panelists and the wider community to discuss thoughts on specific MUs.

In essence, this could revive the Lucas boards as a whole. Inspiring people to discuss these MUs is productive and fun and we should keep an active community if we ever wish to perform well in smash generally.

What exactly is this thread for?

This thread is based around the discussion of Lucas vs. any other character in the cast. We'll discuss everybody, preferably in order of tier list but so long as everyone gets done, it should work out. We'll discuss MK, Marth, DDD, ZSS, DK, kirby, bowser, etc.... perhaps even the ditto!

How will it work?

As stated above, we will attempt to maintain some kind of order so as to avoid confusion. Inspired by the wario boards (and more specifically, zmx, thankyou!!), we will open a discussion, invite players of the the character being discussed in to the thread and look at as many facets of the MU as possible. We can then decide on a MU as a community. Once the character has been fully discussed, we can move on. If you remember something about a MU after the discussion, you can bring it up (in collapse tags, please) and if the community believes it to be of direct relevance to the MU, once the current discussion ends, the next character discussion will be suspended until the issue surrounding the other MU is resolved (and perhaps after a new MU number is created).

Once a discussion has been finished, I will update the OP with a link to the first post in the discussion, followed by quotes that sum the MU up. We will give the discussion time to settle (or if everybody present believes the MU to have been discussed), then move on to the next character. The process will then repeat.

Any specific rules to the thread?

Global rules apply. Try to keep things on topic as much as possible: Spam goes in the social thread thanks! :p

FAQs:

Lets say an MU has been discussed but too many people give inputs such as -2/-3 or +1/+2. What then?

This doesn't happen incredibly often but does sometimes happen. Generally, please try to give a definite MU rating or at the very least a ratio (MU rating preferred though). If you have to you can say -1/-2 or whatever else it may be but keep in mind that if we have too many of them, we'll be asking people to change their MUs to a definite number.

How about other factors in the MU? Stages and stage dependent techniques for example?

We can discuss that as well. When putting memorable quotes, we'll be putting in a MU number, the quotes and also stages to CP to and ban, putting in some notes on stages about what can be done there/what to avoid/why it's a good/bad stage, etc.

Why don't we just revive the other thread?

Mainly because it's dead and really hard to revive, is old and needs refreshing and a new thread may involve the community more.

What's the order we'll be going in?

If the community wishes we can change it but a generally decent way to do this is to go top to bottom: Start with MK and end at ganon.

I've discussed my character but I still wanna be part of the discussion... I mean, I know this character well enough to participate and i'm sure i'd be of some use!

Don't worry! The discussion isn't exclusive and you can contribute to any discussion even if you don't main the character! You might main Ike, for instance but feel you know enough about Bowser to contribute to that discussion!

Can we discuss now?

Go for it!

Currently discussing

:olimar:

Discussed characters
:metaknight: :

Determined Rating:
-2

Discussion begins: First page (won't link this one)

Notable quotes: Again, won't link, look at the first page. :p
Characters to discuss

[COLLAPSE="Characters to discuss"]:olimar:
:diddy:
:popo:
:snake:
:falco:
:marth:
:pikachu2:
:wario:
:zerosuitsamus:
:lucario:
:dedede:
:toonlink:
:wolf:
:gw:
:fox:
:peach:
:pit:
:rob:
:kirby2:
:sheilda:
:sonic:
:dk2:
:ike:
:sheik:
:yoshi2:
:ness2:
:pt:
:luigi2:
:lucas:
:mario2:
:samus2:
:bowser2:
:falcon:
:jigglypuff:
:link2:
:zelda:
:ganondorf:[/COLLAPSE]
 

Lukingordex

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I second Lucas and I'll give my opinion.
:3


-3: :dk2: :sheik: :snake:
-2: :peach: :diddy::wario: :sheilda: :toonlink: :pit: :popo: :metaknight: :olimar: :dedede: :marth: :gw: :rob:
-1: :ness2: :ike: :lucario: :pt: :wolf: :fox: :falco: :kirby2: :pikachu2: :zerosuitsamus: :yoshi2:
0: :sonic: :bowser2: :luigi2:
+1: :falcon: :samus2: :zelda: :mario2:
+2: :link2: :ganondorf: :jigglypuff:

I put Sheilda on -2 because if it's Sheilda,the player will use Zelda (duhhh) probably for kills,but it's really not hard to Lucas to recover some of the losses he had against Sheik when the other player switch to Zelda,if you know the Zelda MU,you can at least do some damage to her before you lose a stock.


Edit: lol sorry didn't saw your guys were discussing MK first.
:x
 

Tikao

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Oct 30, 2012
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wouldn't it be better to start new MU-discussions , just when the new MU-list is done ?
They're creating one , so it shouldn't be finished that late ... so you could see the changes , and discuss them etc. ... but anyway , new MU-stuff is awesome , becaue metagame is changing and stuff , but i think i can't say anything because of non-exist-Lucas-MU-knowledge ... wanna learn Lucas , so i'll watch this : )
 

cloudenvy112

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
78
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Well, I took a look again at the MK vs Lucas match-up and discovered that we really don't have it as bad as we do.

In my recent battles (granted, I'm not playing M2K or any pro MKs), I've discovered that it is important first determine the type of MK you're fighting. Use the very first stock to give plenty of space and find out if you have an extremely aggressive MK who's sole purpose is to gimp you or one that takes advantage of his fast aerials and tornado. I've found that by using my first stock as a test, I can quickly realize who I'm dealing with and change my playstyle accordingly.

Even if you're down a stock, DON'T GIVE UP. Most people will see your stock loss as time to rack up damage before they inevitably die; an MK's mind is no different. They'll like perform lots of down throws and SH Dairs in an attempt to widen the gap. Against extremely aggressive MKs, I try to zone once every ten seconds with PK fire and vary the interval at which I use it. I also try to keep him at bay with SH Dairs, which not only provide cover from his grab attempts but also make him think twice about rushing in.

I think the best tool to use against Metaknight is patience, since the player will likely be either impatient or wanting a swift victory. MK players always want to see how fast they can end a match, especially against low tier trash. Good thing Lucas is always underestimated : P
 

Luco

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@Tikao: We can re-iterate discussions when the new MU chart comes about but this isn't looking at what we want to change so much as going through each MU individually and seeing what we think. It's not like a new rating would mean our discussion was invalid! :p

Anyway, i'm going to invite the MKs, then we'll see what we have.
 

KassandraNova

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I guess the thing that would be most important in this MU is recovery.

Mixing up your ways back to the stage will make it difficult for an mk to just run off the stage and Dair you. Mix up your zap jumping, using PSI magnet, and tethering back to the stage. If you use the same recovery option, it makes it easier for the mk to gimp you, or juggle you. Also if an MK knows most Lucas gimmicks then it's going to be even more of an uphill battle than this match up already is.
 

Luco

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Perhaps... that said, Lucas' gimmicks are ones where if you don't see them coming, you have a tougher time dealing with them (thinking most specifically Dair to Dtilt lock). That said, I hear Nasty was the only Lucas to ever put M2K in a Dtilt lock (again, as an example) so your statement is totally fair. =)

Lucas' off-stage game, if mixed up correctly, makes it harder to gimp him than most characters. He has PK fire as one of his more useful attributes but suffers in the air due to the lack of a safer move when face to face with MK (unlike say Ness who at the very least has Fair). That's not to say his aerials are useless, just LESS useful in this MU than they might otherwise be. Lucas has aerial mobility but MK is faster on the ground. Lucas' ground game is okay but mix-ups would be better for this match-up.

As well as this, we have to consider that in certain positions, Lucas just shouldn't be getting back on-stage if the MK knows what he's doing or some miracle happens for Lucas. One thing that we do have that not many characters do is PKT as a way to harass MK when he's off-stage. That said, one has to be careful with his/her usage of it as if MK gets around it, you get punished hard unless you can angle your PKT back towards yourself in that situation to get yourself away from him.

I'm not a top Lucas and I don't face many MKs, this is just my views on the few times when I do face an MK (in this case, that would be my brother, who plays competitively and knows how to handle MK, he just can't really pull it off that well and prefers his mains).





In my opinion, this MU would be a solid -2. It's not like Lucas is just "gg" as soon as the match starts but without reliable options in the air (Fair is iffy...), things just become tougher for us. A -3 MU would infer that MK hard counters Lucas and wrecks him pretty easily, which I do not believe to be the case. A -1 would be that Lucas has more than 1 consistent option to help keep MK away and make him think more, which I also do not believe to be the case. I could be swayed though.

Guys, please give ratings after your posts, it would make filing this at the end much easier. Cheers. :)
 

TheHolyVee

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So are you guys organizing it by tier? Being the first matchup to be discussed MK?

I can contribute for luigi and ganondorf.
 

cloudenvy112

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And.... queue MU change? It seems like everyone is saying the same thing and I don't think we've discovered anything ground-breaking enough merit more responses. Disadvantaged MU for us, but not impossible. Mix up off-stage game to prevent gimp and enable one on MK. Let'sa move on.
 

Luco

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Yeah but to do this we need to actually need to have MU ratings (eg 1, -3, -1, etc) so i can compile it. For now i'll leave it at -2 :l

I'll also begin an olimar discussion soon.
 

Luco

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Okay, the discussion now looks at olimar but remember: MK is still liable to be brought up again per the rules. At any time in this thread if you feel a character needs to be discussed more, tell me and I will put them on a special 'list' to be discussed more.

Without further ado, it's time to look at the Olimar MU! Please provide thoughts and if you can, a rating would be much appreciated. I'll put in my thoughts a little later.

Gogogo!
 

RelaxAlax

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I posted in the other one but hey I'll put it here! I main Lucas and my friend plays DK. So i've got the most experience againest a DK player.

-4 makes perfect sense. DK's weight makes Lucas have to wait for him to reach about 150% to get his Sidesmash (Down works too) to kill. You can get a back throw in at about 130% or less depending on stage and position. DKs overall range beats Lucas' attacks and dodges (Down-Tilt to Down-B is a 23% on you just like that), not to mention he's go a strong back air to boot and two meteor smashes. With Lucas' recovery it comes to be impossible to recovery sometimes.


When I don't get frustrated with his punches and ungodly long arms, I can win a match and we can tradeoff match for match. I recommend using Lucas' C-stick Special controls and playing defense with Pk-fires. Lucas' jab is also really good so take advantage of that too! Also trick him out with the PSI Magnet wave dash, you can do that and get in a side-tilt. I'd say when off the edge use your Snake if you can so you're not open to any aerials.
 

Luco

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I posted in the other one but hey I'll put it here! I main Lucas and my friend plays DK. So i've got the most experience againest a DK player.

-4 makes perfect sense. DK's weight makes Lucas have to wait for him to reach about 150% to get his Sidesmash (Down works too) to kill. You can get a back throw in at about 130% or less depending on stage and position. DKs overall range beats Lucas' attacks and dodges (Down-Tilt to Down-B is a 23% on you just like that), not to mention he's go a strong back air to boot and two meteor smashes. With Lucas' recovery it comes to be impossible to recovery sometimes.


When I don't get frustrated with his punches and ungodly long arms, I can win a match and we can tradeoff match for match. I recommend using Lucas' C-stick Special controls and playing defense with Pk-fires. Lucas' jab is also really good so take advantage of that too! Also trick him out with the PSI Magnet wave dash, you can do that and get in a side-tilt. I'd say when off the edge use your Snake if you can so you're not open to any aerials.
If you're putting in positives about the MU like that then you're implying it's not -4 :p

I dunno really what I can say for this MU. In friendlies, I consistently beat the best DK in my country as Lucas and Ness. Take it as you will but I found going randomly aggro at him really took him off his guard - I barely ever got chain-grabbed.

But meah. I'm told it shouldn't work. So whatevs. That's just my personal experience. DK for me doesn't feel like a -4.

I also suppose that Boss is more around my skill level than above me. But that still makes this reasonably valid because the MU chart is based off a match played with evenish skill on both sides.
 

PKBeam

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Never played a good DK without lag. Heck, never played a good anything without lag.
Doesn't feel like -4 either, but that's my intuition.
Just hope they can't GR right, quite a few DKs won't be able to do it 0-death. Even the Japanese seem to mess this up, but it could be a lack of experience.
 

Jamwa

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Lucas vs DK is like -2

just camp and shield poke, maintain % lead

you really shouldn't be getting grabbed
 

PKBeam

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Lucas vs DK is like -2

just camp and shield poke, maintain % lead

you really shouldn't be getting grabbed

Dunno, an infinite grab release is an infinite grab release and doesn't his Ftilt/Bair block PKF? But yes, it's still useful if you do have % lead, you can really annoy him like that and make him approach, just that I think you can get wrecked quick without % lead if you're not quite careful.
 

RelaxAlax

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Keep Calm, and PKF. It usually stops his Recovery on stage. Just don't get sucked into his super armor moves like the beginning of his Up+B and of course the Donkey Punch. Also his range can be a beach, but since he's a big target when you do get in there with a Nair or Dair, Jabbing, tilting and maybe down tilting can rack up damage.

It'll be a long match though, patience is everything. I know from experience he will always recover on you and it's better to play it safe then risk using a smash and being left open, unless you read him right ofcourse. It doesn't take him long to rack up damage or to KO you, but it takes you long to do both. Bear that in mind when you go on the attack.
 

Luco

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I can't remember exactly where but I do know there is a direction you can PKT1 from to hit him during his upB. I think it's either the top or bottom but I could be wrong.
 

PKBeam

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Up-B on stage can be beaten with F (risky) and D smash, Usmash I think should be able to break it and you can Dair him too. Getting him offstage, as with most other characters is pretty good for Lucas, if he doesn't recover smartly with Up-B you can obviously Dair him or PKF him. Also if his Up-B gets caught on the lip of FD you can Usmash him from the stage and stagespike him, just a fun fact.

Also Dsmash from GR kills 90-100% good DI.
 
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