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The Never Ending List of Toon's AT's and Tricks / The Data Dump / Song of Brainstorms

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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This is pretty amazing!

Could you organize the AT's by usefulness? Or is that too much to type?
I like this idea actually.
If something like this was to happen, it wouldn't be any major deal for me to do. It would have to be a separate list of just the names of the techs though. But before I can even start to think about using the usefulness rating as a list, I'd want to revise things a little.

This actually goes along with some thoughts I've been having about an updated version of this thread. Nothing too drastic really, but here's what I'd want to do as a start:

I'd want to bring together a group of dedicated Toon links who know what they are talking about (much like the old Toon back room) and revise the usefulness rating of every tech. This is because the metagame changes and the more I look at some of the ratings, the more I realise just how much needs to be 'tweaked'.

I'd then want to go and delete some parts, like the combinations bit; I've never liked it and it was only really put in, as far as I can tell, to have somewhere to put the things that aren't necessarily techs that were often put forward as suggestions.

I'd also want to go and review (again) which vids are working and which aren't. Last time I checked, a lot of them weren't. I'd then need to organise for someone to replace the more important ones. Someone with time on their hands that has the equipment and that is actually capable of performing the techs correctly. They wouldn't have to be in-depth, just showing how it looks really.

Then I myself would want to go through and add or remove actual information about some techs that need to be updated (not a big deal for me).
Once major stuff like this is getting done, then I can start to think about stuff like a list for reference of the techs in order of usefulness, but certainly not before they've been updated.

If anyone is interested in seeing this thread get an overhaul, then post here or PM me or something.
I think the main thing I'd need from everyone else is a willing team to discuss the usefulness ratings and a dedicated individual who wants to do some vids. Let me know if you think you're capable of filling in either of these positions and I'll see what I can do based on responses. If things get rolling, then I'll try to gather together everyone I need and hopefully we'll see some actual progress and life in these boards.
 
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If anything, just divide the work by sections, and do one section per day or something.

I can help if you want, since I can edit your posts.
 

Fragger

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Im not sure if the this is an actual combo, but Zair>Dash attack seems to have worked a lot on my friend playing Olimar. Though, he might not of been shielding at the right time. So can someone test if this is a true combo? I wouldnt know how to test it for a true combo.
 

The Linkster

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Oct 22, 2011
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4712 Kehoe Lane, Manlius, NY
Possible new AT: Footstool Bomb Drop

How to perform: Pull out a bomb, footstool an enemy, immediately drop your bomb.

Note: This works on the ground well, always works in the air. Also, if your target has a high percentage, use it on the ground and change it up a bit with a air attack, either Dair if you're fast, or Fair/Bair in the direction your target flies.

:phone:
 

The Linkster

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About the bomb hookshot thing... I was kinda screwing around, when I did it twice and i think it may have gone along these lines: I jumped, pulled a bomb, and grabbed at the same time. I'm not sure I can redo it, but I sure will try!

:phone:
 

KazeKun

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@The Linkster
Recorded?

If not, it have never happened.
__________



I think we have one Killoption more.

Called

Zair to Fsmash

Its legit, dunno if SDI works very well on it.

It works in 2 different Ways

First Long Range Zair
only the second HIt hits of Fsmash hits, when opponent lands on the ground


or if you are in close range
both hits should hit, but your opponent can get out with good SDI.

Its a true combo at low procent.


Try it!
 

Clownbaby

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I'm currently struggling to master the izac. For those of you that can izac pretty well, how do you have your controller mapped?

I think I'm struggling in part because my big *** hands can't flick the z button very well, its near impossible for me to curl my index finger back effectively. I was thinking I could try r for a new z button, but it seems hard to flick that, and I don't went to give up my y because that's how I shda.

Ive tried nothing, and I'm all out of ideas

:phone:
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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I haven't actually gone to the effort of mastering the izac, so I haven't had to think about which controls would make it easiest. I do know a Toon main in my region (Gords) and he's really good at it to the point where he'll just pull it off no worries in the middle of matches. I'll see if I can find out what control scheme he uses.
 

MJG

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Not a whole lot of people have tried to master izac. KT and I talked about it at apex and it just seems like a hassle at this point. I might look into it if I feel like I have explored all other options (that probably won't be for awhile lol).
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Not a whole lot of people have tried to master izac. KT and I talked about it at apex and it just seems like a hassle at this point. I might look into it if I feel like I have explored all other options (that probably won't be for awhile lol).
These were basically my thoughts exactly when I decided it'd be better for me to focus my attention for now on what's more important in order to improve. The izac is just one of those 'sometime in the future perhaps' options for me atm.

I also feel, which may be quite relevant at this point, that the izac is seen as something to turn to when you don't know how to improve. In a lot of cases, perhaps even all cases at this point in time, there's actually something better you can be doing. If you feel like you're just looking for a quick or easy way to improve, then this isn't that kind of tech (because in no way is it quick or easy); if you're attracted to it because you like the idea of simply learning a tech and instantly becoming better as opposed to putting in the effort to really improve as a player, then you're adopting the wrong mindset.
 

Gords

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Foxy has let me know that someone was interested in the iZAC. I have learnt how to do it and so i will talk a bit on what i know and will check this thread over the next couple of weeks or so to answer questions
I also feel, which may be quite relevant at this point, that the izac is seen as something to turn to when you don't know how to improve. In a lot of cases, perhaps even all cases at this point in time, there's actually something better you can be doing. If you feel like you're just looking for a quick or easy way to improve, then this isn't that kind of tech (because in no way is it quick or easy); if you're attracted to it because you like the idea of simply learning a tech and instantly becoming better as opposed to putting in the effort to really improve as a player, then you're adopting the wrong mindset.
Firstly everything foxy mentions here is absolutely correct. this is not an easy tech and will not improve your mindset as a player at all, its just another tool in your kit of tricks you can use. In fact the reasons why i bothered to learn it was back when i was unemployed living in another state (QLD Australia) other than my home state with a lot of free time on my own, not knowing how to improve when playing alone, hence i was practicing and learning a lot of technical stuff like bomb tricks and i really liked the iZAC concept so i learnt it.

I'm currently struggling to master the izac. For those of you that can izac pretty well, how do you have your controller mapped?
i just use the default GC control set up. I did fiddle around with other set ups but default seemed the most useful. chances are that when you first start to learn it your hands will feel a bit awkward and tired, but thats to be expected about anything when first learning something new (same thing happened to me when i first learned how to wavedash in melee)

Start with iZAC N-air. I use the X button to jump by flicking the bottom of the button with my thumb, immediately after i quickly flick the Z button with my index finger barely touching the right side of the button. then immediately flick the A button. Practice just this button combination first within a normal ZAC, dont try to iZAC it yet, for it to work the Z button has to be released before you hit the A button otherwise you will throw the bomb instead of N-airing. I know my explanation isnt that good but i might try to put up some vids for you to see but they wont come until after the weekend since i will be going away for the weekend for a tourney.

anyways after you have the timing right where you are quickly releasing the Z button in time you can try to iZAC it, if done correctly you should have enough time to buffer an arrow cancel.

to do the other aerials i use the the C-stick, same timings but use C-stick for aerials instead. again try first with normal ZAC and when you got the timing you can start to iZAC. iZAC D-air is the most difficult since toon link pops up a little however D-air is the least useful iZACed aerial anyway. You should know if your getting the 'i' part of iZAC right if you can do F-air then reverse arrow cancel since this has the most strict timing on it. for B-air you should be able to chain a second B-air as well or again arrow cancels, although iZAC double back air is more difficult.

This will take a while to master, once i had the timings right it took me a long time to become consistent, between stocks during friendlies i would try this, i recommend this since after a while you get a lot of practice in.

In game i havent fully incorporated into my toon link game yet but i am working on it. I also use diddy as a secondary and even though i learn to iZAC with toon link i use it more atm in my diddy game ( can do dash attack combos while holding a banana). with toon link i use iZAC U-air sometimes on the ledge when they get to close and would normally U-air through the platform anyway, sometimes the bomb pull baits your opponent to the ledge as well. in my toon link game i space with Z, B, F-airs, iZAC allows me to do this while holding a bomb or a banana against diddys. when actaully attacking with iZACs you have to be more careful with spacing since if you are to close the bomb will hit and explode on your oponent the moment you drop it. I have recently been iZACing out of shield as well, such as when you are shielding and would normally retreating B-air out of shield but now i can do it while holding the bomb. in terms of combos apart from the standard Z-air to F,N-air muck around with other projectiles and stuff, remember you can iZAC into arrow cancel or double aerial when B-airing.
 

Clownbaby

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thanks guys. Firstly I understand that a new tech isn't going to instantly upgrade my game, infact while I try to incorporate new stuff my game usually suffers for a while. but I like to always be learning new skills. and yeah izac is next on the list, even though I haven't perfected normal chainning in my game. Haven't perfected anything but that doesn't mean I can't work on this behind the scenes.

last night I tried mapping grab to b(already had special mapped to y), to try to get a sliding effect from b to a. It kinda works, kinda, I think I pulled off three, too what degree I'm not sure. It is a tough tech so you guys might be right its not worth it, course that's what I initially thought about shda. maybe the fact that nobody its bothering to learn makes it more attractive and less predictable... But mostly I don't like that bombs can turn into a liability, and this along with more effective ibomb on my part could help.

Thanks again, sometimes it feels like I'm barking in the wind on this site, this kind of near instant feedback is very gratifying.

Gord I will try the original mapping more, but it feels awkward a little painful, I wish they made a larger controller.

one off topic question: How can I do forward-facing retreating jump shda .I gave up on it(sms or wavebounce seems to come out), but it randomly comes out sometime if I try to sh retreat jump bomb pull ac.
 

Gords

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Clownbaby
I did try button combination that used a slide to exucute. The problem I found with it is that I couldn't consistantly slide making sure the grab button was released before the attack button was pressed. If you get it to work then thats great.

However I would expect some awkwardness and I little pain when trying to learn this. It is like anything that you do that your hands aren't used to yet. My hands hurt a little when I was learning this and when I was learning to wavedash in melee. I am also a casino dealer and my hands hurt a little when I was being trained in chip work. The idea is to practice until your hands hurt and then do a little bit more and take a break. When your hands have recovered practice some more. Repeat this process and before long you will notice that you can go longer between breaks till eventually your hands are used to the positioning and motion and don't hurt anymore.

Let me know how it goes.
 

Clownbaby

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So I spent an hour on this last night working with the z set to grab and I made some progress. still not there yet but I think this is a learnable useful tech. I do have to resituate the controller which is messing with my game, but ill get used to it. So far this has already let me add dash sh nair with a bomb, not consistently yet, but hey its a step that could be big. To me, if I can pull that off, this tech is already worth it.

noted: the rar shda is definitely the way to go. Kinda wondering if it is possible to do it the other way consistently/the mechanics (can the input only be made at frame 6?/why does it work sometimes?) But its not important.

:phone:
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Glad we could be of help.



Just thought I'd let you guys know what I found the other day. It's no big deal atm as I still haven't found much of a use for it, but I found out it's possible to do SH (or FH) Dair stalls out of the momentum received from shield knockback. I mean, sure you could float it towards or away from them, but it still seems silly. Cool looking, but realistically still silly. It's a bit tough tbh anyway. An easier way to use the momentum of the shield push is to get pushed off a platform facing forwards, and then a normal DJ Dair stall is super easy. So yeah, it’s just another way to do it other than getting hit hard or using wind hitboxes.
 

Gords

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Great to hear about your progress clownbaby. Especailly with the dash SH N-air with bomb, now try that with with arrow cancel when landing. If you pull that off then you know you iZACed instead of just ZACing. Also you could try other aerials instead of N-air.

By the way. Did you still want vids clownbaby.
 

Clownbaby

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No its cool gords, unless you got some stuff locked and loaded I wouldn't bother. Good luck in your tourney, if you get to gf use tl for atleast one round for us

:phone:
 

Gords

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nah im not that good, i came =9 or =11 i think out of 40ish players.

keep at your iZACing mix ups and if you have any more question best PM me since i will probs stop checking here for awhile. otherwise let foxy know and hell pass on the message.
 

ShadowTl

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Jun 27, 2009
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I don't know if you guys already know this and it isn't really an AT, but posting it anyway.

When tl is on the edge at SV, you can let go of the stage and immidiatly jump to the platform but tl can't land on it. If you use a platform cancel here you can land on the platform. This gives you one more option when you're at the edge, after the cancel you could run to them and just attack, platform drop and nair them in the face or just jump and start camping again.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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If you're looking for Zair specific stuff, then it doesn't have its own section partly because I felt there wasn't enough for it to have its own section; you'll find what there is in the 'general' section. If it's how/when to use it that your after, then the guide has that covered.
 

Musketeer04

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Jan 23, 2012
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Ok, I was just wondering if i knew everything about his zair, as in what combos include it. In order to find how/when to use it do i just have to look through the thread?
 

Clownbaby

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I can't believe this little nugget was missed, originally posted by hyro in the community guide.

"I highly doubt anyone else bair combos like I(hyro) do though. What I do is sh bair with the control stick and A. That way, I'll never accidentally buffer a jump with the cstick. Then, for my second bair, I fast fall with the control stick, and bair with the cstick. If you use A for the second bair, it'll be too hard to fast fall. Right when I hit the ground, I immediately go back to the control stick and A. This is where the true combos come in, since a bair autocancels, you can immediately bair again. I just alternate between these two so it's a chain of bairs that are VERY fast...with no chance of error."

this its definitely deserves to be listed as an AT. He's right it comes out super fast, but its somewhat difficult to time until you get the rhythm down. Call it the hyro bair string

:phone:
 

MJG

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I can't believe this little nugget was missed, originally posted by hyro in the community guide.

"I highly doubt anyone else bair combos like I(hyro) do though. What I do is sh bair with the control stick and A. That way, I'll never accidentally buffer a jump with the cstick. Then, for my second bair, I fast fall with the control stick, and bair with the cstick. If you use A for the second bair, it'll be too hard to fast fall. Right when I hit the ground, I immediately go back to the control stick and A. This is where the true combos come in, since a bair autocancels, you can immediately bair again. I just alternate between these two so it's a chain of bairs that are VERY fast...with no chance of error."

this its definitely deserves to be listed as an AT. He's right it comes out super fast, but its somewhat difficult to time until you get the rhythm down. Call it the hyro bair string

:phone:
Where was this said? And that is definitely something worth noting. He actually gave me a good idea in the olimar MU (and I feel pretty confident in that MU already). Gonna test it when I play an olimar main again and see how things work out
 

TheFlow

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Flowmed
Hello fellow toon link mainers ! I would first thank everybody who contributed to this thread, really helped my at getting my toon link better.

And i think i have discovered a new AT, altough it isnt that useful...

When you catch your bomb with a Dair, and when you hit, you can use a aerial with your bomb right off the bat. I dont know if this were discovered, but i just share what i discovered playing with a meta knight the other day.

Sorry for bad english, im french :)
 

ShadowTl

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It is known ;)
It's called chaining in this thread, when you catch a bomb with dair, bair or up air you can do any of those aerials after it.

Btw, I did something new by accident a few weeks ago. It's not really usefull so I didn't look into it any further.
What I did was pull a bomb, run to the edge, reverse jump cancel your up b and charge it when nearly at the edge. Then as soon as you're off the edge, throw the bomb towards the edge and DI towards the edge.
Result: TL will edgehog while throwing the bomb over the stage.
I guess you can also throw the bomb into another direction, but I haven't tried this yet.
 

Baskerville

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Posting this little combo I found out.
Drop from ledge> Jump> Fair > Nair (Make sure it trips) > Arrow Cancel > Another Arrow > Run & Up Smash
 

Tesh

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That arrow stuff looks kind of pointless, with all the lag your opponent would have to be so far back from the ledge to make that safe...

On the subject of getting off of the ledge, is there a video or picture guide of how to get returning boomerangs to cover your ledge getups?
 

Tesh

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Well that sucks, it would be really awesome if someone made a video like that...
 
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