The most frustrating way to lose is feeling like you couldn't have done any better

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

What frustrates me the most when I lose in Smash 4 is when I keep getting hit or thrown when I feel like I should've hit first. I can't tell you how many times I've tried hitting someone with an aerial while they're tumbling in the air, but they hit me first at lightning fast speed. Or when someone does a down smash and misses, so I try to punish with a grab, but they just down smash again as I approach or spot dodge. Then when I try to do the same thing, they always hit me. It's especially baffling to me when this happens against slow characters like Bowser, Ganondorf, DK, Dedede, etc. I expect their attacks to come out much slower than Ness', but they always hit me before I can hit them. And it's not like I'm slow or anything. I press the buttons as fast as I possibly can.

I also have a friend who loooves to camp at the edge of the stage and I never know what to do. Air attacks and ground attacks won't work because he'll just shield grab. Throwing out projectiles doesn't help because he'll just shield or run up at me and grab. A lot of times I feel like I'm fighting a robot or some kind of psychic that knows when to attack, shield, and grab at EXACTLY the right time. And it's because of this that he tends to give me a hard time even with characters he's not even maining.

I think I might have trouble figuring out priority, but I also fear it's just a physical advantage people I play have. Like, maybe I am just too slow at pressing the buttons. This is what frustrates me most because it feels like I reached my limit and there's nothing else I can do. I also worry that I'm being too predictable, but even when I try to switch things up and try different tactics, they can still see it coming and punish me badly.

 

[PKBeam]

oh god, I'm so glad you're not a Link main.
and this might be better off in the general competitive discussion subforum

 

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

Can a mod move it?

 

[Noa.]

I mean it seems that your tech skill is really failing you. The only way to improve that is to start playing a hell of a lot more. Only a **** ton of play time will help you fix those problems. It's what you have to do.

 

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

I've been playing just about everyday since I got the game. Either with friends or in For Glory...

 

[PKBeam]

need to play someone good. either that or more mental experience. i think it took me many months to be good at brawl... well, from when I first started tryintg.

 

[Noa.]

I've been playing just about everyday since I got the game. Either with friends or in For Glory...

How many different characters are you using? It's easier to develop tech skill by exclusively playing one character. Play that character in 500 matches and then you'll start to feel fluid.

And what kind of controller are you using? You should also consider changing the controls on your tag and see if that helps.

 

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

Ness is my best one, but I also play Little Mac, Shulk, Wii Fit Trainer, and Sonic. I play with a GC controller. I have one control set where c-stick is for tilts and another where c-stick is for smash attacks. I use the tilts control set for Ness, Shulk, and WFT. I use smash for Little Mac. And I can't decide which one's better for Sonic yet.

 

[Uffe]

What frustrates me the most when I lose in Smash 4 is when I keep getting hit or thrown when I feel like I should've hit first. I can't tell you how many times I've tried hitting someone with an aerial while they're tumbling in the air, but they hit me first at lightning fast speed. Or when someone does a down smash and misses, so I try to punish with a grab, but they just down smash again as I approach or spot dodge. Then when I try to do the same thing, they always hit me. It's especially baffling to me when this happens against slow characters like Bowser, Ganondorf, DK, Dedede, etc. I expect their attacks to come out much slower than Ness', but they always hit me before I can hit them. And it's not like I'm slow or anything. I press the buttons as fast as I possibly can

Perhaps it's because they see what you're about to do, so they react as soon as they can before you can do it first. And being faster with your attacks isn't necessarily always a good thing, because if you whiff, then you're going to get punished, and if you're not as slow as you say you aren't, then you should be hitting your opponents first. The issue on the down smashes sounds like you're not perfect shielding the first attack. It sounds like you're blocking, but getting pushed back and then when you go for a grab, it whiffs, and you get punished with another down smash.

While Bowser, Ganondorf, DK, and King Dedede are slow, the player will most likely use an attack earlier before you, making it appear as if they're faster than they actually are. And these characters are actually fast in some aspects. Bowser, Ganondorf, and DK have some fast aerials, particularly their back aerials. Ganondorf and DK have fast up aerials.

I also have a friend who loooves to camp at the edge of the stage and I never know what to do. Air attacks and ground attacks won't work because he'll just shield grab. Throwing out projectiles doesn't help because he'll just shield or run up at me and grab. A lot of times I feel like I'm fighting a robot or some kind of psychic that knows when to attack, shield, and grab at EXACTLY the right time. And it's because of this that he tends to give me a hard time even with characters he's not even maining.

If your friend is at the edge of the stage, he's putting himself in a bad position. By doing this, he limits his space, leaving you with a lot of options. And if he's jumping over you when you get close, then attack him in the air. I'm wondering who he's using, though. I can only think of Samus, Link, Toon Link, Fox, Falco, King Dedede, Mega Man, and Pac Man spamming projectile. There might be more, but those are the ones I mostly see. You can literally do a long jump and shoot PK Thunder at either of them. If he's grabbing you when you get close, spot dodge as you approach, that way his grab misses, and go for a jab, since attacks break grabs. And the reason he knows what you're doing is because he's forcing you to play predictable, even if you don't.

I think I might have trouble figuring out priority, but I also fear it's just a physical advantage people I play have. Like, maybe I am just too slow at pressing the buttons. This is what frustrates me most because it feels like I reached my limit and there's nothing else I can do. I also worry that I'm being too predictable, but even when I try to switch things up and try different tactics, they can still see it coming and punish me badly.

You haven't reached your limit. Characters who out range Ness and camp making him play predictable, because the only options you're left with are the obvious ones, which are then easy to punish. At least that's what happens to me. But you've also got to keep in mind that if they're doing something that is constantly working against you, then no doubt they're also playing predictable. Toon Link for example. Angled boomerang that hits in a V shape, arrows, and bombs. That will create a wall that is hard for you to get around. He'll attack you with his blade when you get close, though, or try to grab you. Really pay attention to how they're playing. I mean, if you're saying they're doing specific things, then there's a start.

 

[ilysm]

First off, all of the above advice is true. I just wanted to touch on something that isn't matchup or character specific. It's more of a fundamental, but it's a bizarre, tricky, weird fundamental that takes a long while to get a handle on.

How often do you play with this friend? I heard an interesting theory once during a match between ESAM and Nick Riddle. I can't recall who it was, but someone said that the truly interesting thing about siblings growing up and playing Smash together constantly is that eventually each will develop a playstyle that directly counters the other's. I like to call it the 'Smash Siblings' theory. It seems that's kinda at work here; your friend has just picked up on your habits before you've picked up on his. There may be a couple reasons for this. One thing that is probably my biggest weakness (more so against CPUs and in For Glory than against actual people I know but still) is that I'm too focused on strategies I want to employ without really playing off of my opponent. I'll think, 'I want to do this combo', and then go for the combo without paying attention to why it would be a bad idea or what they could do to counter it. Perhaps that's what's going on here, and you need to play a little more reactionary than you are. Take their habits into mind instead of just simply 'mixing it up'.

It took me the longest time to learn this, but Smash at its highest level is all about conditioning your opponent into certain behaviors, and then capitalizing on those behaviors and punishing accordingly when you can predict that they're going to do. It's highly psychological (in fact I theorize it's even more so when you're playing people you know extremely well and play very often). You say that whenever you try to do an aerial your opponent just shields and grabs. There are two tools to get around this, but only one is Ness specific. For one, you could cross up with an aerial and then punish the grab. I think this is best done with nair. Alternatively, you could employ the mindgame; empty hop into grab. This is called a 'tomahawk' by some people in the competitive community (I have no idea as to why, Smash slang is fun but super super weird). Basically you bait them into shielding when they think you're going to do an aerial, then grab them once they shield--which they've been conditioned to do every time Ness does a short-hop near them. After a while they'll catch on and you can start mixing in aerials or landing and then shielding/attacking/whatever. Ever hear the term 'meta-game'? That's essentially what it is. A really brain-heavy series of play and counter-play where you're conditioning and adapting to your opponent--and if they're any good, they're doing the exact same thing to you.

I once played against a Yoshi in For Glory. About halfway through the first match, they figured they would airdodge immediately every time I got a down-throw to avoid the fair followup. I picked up on this, and the next time I got a down-throw I simply stood there. Sure enough, they airdodged and I just grabbed them afterward and threw them again. This happened maybe three or four times in a row before they caught on (who says you can't chaingrab in this game?) and after that it developed pretty intensely. Each of us was trying to predict what the other would do and act accordingly. That's the core of Smash, and almost every other fighting game in existence ever.

So if they're doing panic-button aerials, simply wait and punish them afterward. Or throw out a PK Thunder and intercept them with the tail, which has truly legendary priority. Tomahawk the living daylights out of them. Play the brain game, which is the most critical (and most fun) game in Smash. Smash is a really, really personal game. It is extremely fun to play it that way.

 

[The 0ne]

Holy **** that was great advice.

 

[Uffe]

Indigeau gave some really great advice. Especially with the For Glory part. You're not expected to pick up what your opponent is doing right off the bat, but there will be certain quirks about them that allow you to better adapt. I especially agree with him on the down throw attack soon being air dodged right after. If you're lucky, the down throw will bait them into thinking you're going to go for a forward air, but you could see them dodge and strike with an up air. With PK Thunder, you can literally bait your opponent into dodging. And if they do dodge, and they're near the ground, then you could hit yourself into them. Here is what I mean. I know it's a Brawl video, but it should give you a general idea of what I'm talking about. Anyway, really listen to what Indigeau said, because I think that advice is especially useful.

 

[ilysm]

Uffe makes a good point about For Glory; in the example I used, my opponent was being extremely predictable, and normally you wouldn't be expected to pick up on their quirks right off the bat (pun?). What I said was more general; those are good examples of Ness-specific mindgames and strategy (regarding the airdodge thing, if you're too far away to hit the PKT2, the tail lingers forever and ever--it is super super good). It can feel kinda frustrating right now (I goof up on this mentality a lot still) but once you get the hang of it it gives the game a whole new level of depth and complexity.