The Most Defensive Smash?!

[Starfall11]

Hello all,

This isn't meant to be a flamebait thread. But after playing some Smash 4 matches today, I'm feeling a bit disheartened. I played a plethora of online matches, and all I've seen is "Stand back, spam projectile, evade, etc" then shield grab or punish as you approach.

I feel the game lends itself so heavily to campy, defensive play that it is almost impossible to win a smash 4 tournament if you prefer hyper offensive gameplay. I want to know if anyone feels Smash 4 has potential to be hyper offensive, or if defensive play is the name of the game. Because if so, I'm dropping it for good. I don't like defensive play to be honest. So someone who knows way more about the state of Smash 4 and it's metagame, please enlighten me. I used to be a fan for several months, but I'm beginning to feel it's one dimensional.

 

[Smearglangelo]

First impressions from For Glory mode might not be the best way to judge this game. I've been told that there's a lack of skilled players on For Glory from time to time.

If you really want to get a good idea of what the Smash 4 metagame is like, you should look up some high level play. The pros know how to play Smash 4 better than anyone.

 

[PKBeam]

you don't get a free punish on approaches. you just need to be patient in how you approach and more often than not you'll get in.

"hyper offensive gameplay" is still present in smash 4 and indeed it is part of many characters' strategies.

 

[Shog]

you could also try, if you want a more offensive game, try
Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG) - *UPDATE: ONLINE!*
http://smashboards.com/threads/smooth-lander-and-heavy-gravity-slhg-update-online.383506/page-15#post-19254992

 

[Untamed]

I have yet to play SSB4, but from what I've watched of it (mainly competitive videos/streams), it doesn't look slow or campy at all. More than likely, you ran into back to back inexperienced players who don't feel comfortable being offensive, and or they were playing a character who benefits from a campy play style, i.g. villager. Like others have mentioned, try watching the competitive scene, and take place in online tournaments, with actual experienced players.
Best of luck!

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

For Glory is different from how the meta is. FG has lag and Final Destination kind of gives some advantages to defensive players. Also, these douches are the minority; there are many offensive players on For Glory and in the competitive scene. The scene is growing pretty fast, and the previous Top-Tier (Diddy Kong) is, unlike Meta Knight, a character that rely on Offensive Techniques!
I would say that, despite Shields and Rolls being strong as they are, people are learning to punish them more.

 

[SuaveChaser]

Sm4sh in general is defensive and campy it is just how the game is.

 

[Tsukuokami]

I've been playing a lot of defensive players on For Glory as well but when I go to a local tournament it's different. For Glory just isn't too good because of the defensive players imo.

 

[LancerStaff]

Lately I've been seeing more offense from randoms... But then again it's also coming from characters who should be playing defense like Rosalina and Villager.

 

[Starfall11]

Thanks for all of the feedback guys. My two favorite characters in the game are Ike and Shulk. Do they have the ability to play offensively? I mean, after a bait and punish, go for tech chases, mixups, etc?

 

[16bit]

It appeals more to casuals then competitives. That's why they make it more defensive.

 

[Kurri ★]

It appeals more to casuals then competitives. That's why they make it more defensive.

So Guilty Gear appeals more to competitives than Street Fighter because it's more offensive?

Please don't make baseless claims...

 

[Zerp]

It appeals more to casuals then competitives. That's why they make it more defensive.

How is defensive play any more casual than offensive play? I don't think I quite get what your saying.

 

[16bit]

So Guilty Gear appeals more to competitives than Street Fighter because it's more offensive?

Please don't make baseless claims...

How is that a baseless claim? Brawl was hated by us for defensive play, and was purely meant to appeal to casuals. So by making this more on the defensive Brawl side then the offensive Melee side, it's appealing to casuals.

 

[Zerp]

How is that a baseless claim? Brawl was hated by some of us for defensive play, and was purely meant to appeal to casuals. So by making this more on the defensive Brawl side then the offensive Melee side, it's appealing to casuals.

Brawl was actually a thriving competitive game for a few years, I still don't see how the defensive play made it anymore casual. Sure tripping was obviously intended for casuals, but how does defensive play itself make it moreso?

Edit: Fixed up wording, as it didn't convey what I mean't.

 

[jdubYOU]

Brawl was actually a thriving competitive game for a few years, I still don't see how the defensive play made it anymore casual. Sure tripping was obviously intended for casuals, but the defensive play itself?

No...smash is definitely designed to appeal to casuals in some ways. With all the flashy characters, items, modes, 8-player smash, etc., you can't deny it is meant to be a great party game in addition to being competitive. I don't think "defensive play" makes it casual, but I feel like that is a type of play style that most casuals would emulate. I do think it is competitive, though, too, given the amount of skill required to become advanced at the game. I do think Smash 4 is a lot better than Brawl at high level play.

 

[Zerp]

No...smash is definitely designed to appeal to casuals in some ways. With all the flashy characters, items, modes, 8-player smash, etc., you can't deny it is meant to be a great party game in addition to being competitive. I do think it is competitive, though, too, given the amount of skill required to become advanced at the game. I do think Smash 4 is a lot better than Brawl at high level play.

Aha, I didn't say that quite right, I meant how did the defensive play make it anymore casual than it already was.
I also agree with you on your point that smash was designed as a party game, heck, I still play it as a party game every once in a while! Sorry for the confusion, which was entirely my fault.

 

[Starfall11]

I don't believe defensive play makes it any more casual either. It just makes it "different" and honestly, it's a matter of preference. I prefer bait and punish, so defensive is fine for me. But once I go in, I like to maintain pressure and capitalize on my offense. And Smash 4 is a bit lacking in that. But overall, it's definitely a preference.

 

[dahuterschuter]

Not at this point in the metagame. Maybe it'll get there.

Until we start seeing games like this at the tournament level it'll only be second most defensive behind Brawl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WQSRyIBAF8

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't believe defensive play makes it any more casual either. It just makes it "different" and honestly, it's a matter of preference. I prefer bait and punish, so defensive is fine for me. But once I go in, I like to maintain pressure and capitalize on my offense. And Smash 4 is a bit lacking in that. But overall, it's definitely a preference.

As per your question in the OP.

It's not as aggressive as Melee or PM but it's better than how bad Brawl got when it turned campy. Dunno where to put 64 in this given while it is combo heavy the neutral could be very campy, I hear mixed things and don't play it myself so idk there.

But you can do a lot more of mix and match in this game.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

I don't understand how defense makes casual. I've played every smash bros game since the beginning casually, and I didn't even know how to shield anything. It was just ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK. I would counter attacks with attacks rather than defensive options and did just fine, usually one of the better players among my friends. I literally would never press shield.

With this game, defense in general is good enough that such braindead hyper offense isn't very effective. That doesn't mean that the game is explicitly defensive though, because all it takes is smart offense to outplay their defensive options.

Although it's technically easier to sit back and shield and respond to the opponent, it takes a significant understanding of game play mechanics to play both offense and defense correctly. It's a lot harder to play this game offensively than others, but I feel as though offense and defense have a better competitive balance in this game than any other (just look at 64, you only shield in that game if you have a death wish).

 

[jdubYOU]

You can't go for as many follow ups as in Melee, but that is almost a good thing. In Melee, with one good read you pretty much destroy your opponent with guaranteed combos (given you are a pro). In Smash 4, you are guaranteed some followups depending on the character, but it is also all about the patience and mind games. It's just a different style but still great imo. (Although, this is coming from someone who has watched a ton of Melee but has never played it competitively).

 

[Ninbat]

I feel like its do the amount of inexperienced players online, who have no idea what they're doing, and just play defensively. Who knows, they might not even know they're playing defensively. Anther's Ladder is a great website that has a community made up of devoted and highly skilled Smash players, so that might be a good place to fight some good people, and grasp the game mechanics better.

 

[Kurri ★]

You can't go for as many follow ups as in Melee, but that is almost a good thing. In Melee, with one good read you pretty much destroy your opponent with guaranteed combos (given you are a pro).

If they're playing someone who's new and doesn't know how to DI, tech, etc. properly. Melee can have long combos, but let's not get to hasty now, they're no lightning loops from UMvC3.

 

[krazyzyko]

https://youtu.be/8WQSRyIBAF8
Brawl takes the cake.

 

[Kurri ★]

https://youtu.be/8WQSRyIBAF8
Brawl takes the cake.

Showing a game at it's worst is not an argument.

 

[krazyzyko]

Showing a game at it's worst is not an argument.

Better or worse, is another smash game. Which happens to reward defensive play.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Having good defensive options is not a bad thing. Brawl had terrible offensive options so the defensive options were way too good, but offensive options in 4 are really good so to be good at Smash 4 it takes a good balance of offense and defense, which is good.

 

[GhostUrsa]

Thanks for all of the feedback guys. My two favorite characters in the game are Ike and Shulk. Do they have the ability to play offensively? I mean, after a bait and punish, go for tech chases, mixups, etc?

From what I've seen and played, Shulk may be able to in short bursts if you use the right Monado arts but they (Ike and Shulk) are usually more of a punisher type playstyle. They don't have the speed to play overly aggressive, but their range and power allow for a lot of fake outs, baiting, and such. They require more reading than other characters because of this. This doesn't mean you can't mix it up with being aggressive but you'll be beaten out by characters that favor this style more.

Take a look into the Character specific forums and look at some of the video threads and Match-up discussions for an idea on how aggressive they can be.

 

[Muro]

I'll never watch a match with custom villager again, it's painful.

you could also try, if you want a more offensive game, try
Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG) - *UPDATE: ONLINE!*

This guy knows where it's at

 

[LancerStaff]

I wouldn't put much stock in SLHG... It destroys certain characters and many of the currently fast characters are slown down due to SHFF auto cancels on most moves being made impossible. That, and it'll never be balanced for.

 

[Quillion]

Oh... this again. I must unleash my secret forum weapon now...

BTW: mindless offensive buttonmashing similar to a two-button MvC would be equally as casual as a defensive game.

 

[Grim!]

I think ssb4 too slow is because there are too many good options kill off the game have been deleted.
My idea to make this game more quickly would be a competetivemode.In this mode there would be no landing lag
and you could just turn it on or off so a casual player wouldn't even have to use this mode.Another thing could be
to just speed up the characters or give them more kill moves.What do you people think is this game to slow or not
because to me this game is a little to slow fighting 4:45 min to win a 2 stock match.

maybe we should complaine about super smash 4 they did nerf diddy because everyone was complaining about him

 

[WwwWario]

In my eyes - it's both. It's a mix. I've seen everything from very defensive Diddy plays to surprisingly offensive Ganon dittos. I'm personally a fan of offensive play, and watching tournaments of Smash 4 makes me smile, since many of those matches are offensive, and it works well too. For Glory is another story. There you will see roll spammers and projectile spammers 50+% of the time, which does indeed make it feel defensive. It's not smart to play like that in high level play, because people there know how to counter it, but in FG, it's a good trick because it can be difficult to learn how to counter it, and because of lag. So yes, in FG, it can feel defensive and campy, but I've played matches against very good players in this game, and I've never had so much fun. Those matches were very offensive and had so much variety.

I like this game. Ganondorf, being one of the slowest in the game, can be offensive, as shown in the awesome example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyuINAbhkg4

The only thing I'd like changed, is rolls. Nerf 'em.

 

[Grim!]

i think they should change the game buff all the characters and make the game a little faster this link is fun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyuINAbhkg4
but you have to say thats just to slow for a game they just have to speed up the game make ssb4 turbo edision or
somthing the game is just to slow even brawl is faster

 

[Shog]

[..]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyuINAbhkg4

The only thing I'd like changed, is rolls. Nerf 'em.

That Ganondorf combo at 4:49 ... that's why I like Smash 4. If you pull off a combo, it makes you screech like a schoolgirl

Ehem...folks around here, never forget that custom equips can be used to ""fix"" issues you have, like making Shield, Roll and Dodges worse while increasing speed or something.

 

[Grim!]

it would be better if it was standaard that the speed was higher and the dodge was worse.
But having to select equipment for that is a lot of work if you have more than one friend
you play ssb4 with.

 

[Kurri ★]

I think ssb4 too slow is because there are too many good options kill off the game have been deleted.
My idea to make this game more quickly would be a competetivemode.In this mode there would be no landing lag
and you could just turn it on or off so a casual player wouldn't even have to use this mode.Another thing could be
to just speed up the characters or give them more kill moves.What do you people think is this game to slow or not
because to me this game is a little to slow fighting 4:45 min to win a 2 stock match.

maybe we should complaine about super smash 4 they did nerf diddy because everyone was complaining about him

I'm sorry, did you just insinuate that little to no landing lag makes the game more "hardcore" and "competitive?" That making a game faster and more offensive makes it less casual? It'd probably make it more "exciting," but no, that's not going to make it automatically better. If anything it'd make it even worse because then you could just throw out attacks without even thinking, the complete opposite of "competitive;" there's no landing lag to stop you, so you can just keep applying pressure.

 

[Grim!]

Thats true you can apply more pressure but things like Di would become more important.
And using shield and schieldgrabs the game would be a lot more fun that way

 

[Kurri ★]

It doesn't work like that. Taking something doesn't automatically make something more important, and even if it does, it doesn't make it a better alternative. You have look at the whole game, part of the reason the game is balanced a certain way is due to the lag, remove and now you have to rework the entire game.