The Most Defensive Smash?!

[Shog]

I wonder though if making shield, sidesteps and airdodges worse would make the game better or worse. There are Equipment effects for that.

 

[Kurri ★]

I wonder though if making shield, sidesteps and airdodges worse would make the game better or worse. There are Equipment effects for that.

Making them worse may benefit the game at a 1v1 and 2v2 level, but once you go into 8 player FFA it's definitely going to make the game worse. One thing people have to realize is that Smash 4 isn't balanced at 1v1 but for every play.

 

[Shog]

Making them worse may benefit the game at a 1v1 and 2v2 level, but once you go into 8 player FFA it's definitely going to make the game worse. One thing people have to realize is that Smash 4 isn't balanced at 1v1 but for every play.

Oh I know that, Smash in general is designed for Free For Alls, that's why it always hilarious if two team up against one which plays "like a coward"

But I am curious, in general you would say lowering the defense capabilities with equipment(ignoring stat boosts) could benefit the competitive meta,1vs1 etc.? Wouldn't it be worth it checking out how different a malus equipment meta (with anti dodge "buffs" etc.) changes the gameplay itself? I wonder how that would look like with really good player here on Smashboards!

[I mean a lot of people complain (not you obviously) after all, but they don't seem to do anything about it.]

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

OP sounds like a Super Smash Bros. Melee die-hard.

 

[Kurri ★]

OP sounds like a Super Smash Bros. Melee die-hard.

Let's try to avoid comments like this please...

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

Let's try to avoid comments like this please...

Oh alright.

 

[Grim!]

what they do now is nerfing the characters that are in the top 10.There is a better way you can buff all the character that are not in the top 10 it does pretty much do the same thing

 

[Kurri ★]

While the idea behind nerfing and buffing are the same, balancing, they aren't the same at all. Buffing everyone and nerfing everyone leads to two completely different metas and overall games; the difference between PM 3.02 and PM 3.5.

 

[Grim!]

Yeah its true but getting balance by buffing everyone leads most of the time to faster game.
Ssb4 is now more like streetfighter in terms of balance while i hoped it would feel more like umvc3 in term of balance.

 

[Kurri ★]

I think not being like UMVC3 is a compliment

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

I think not being like UMVC3 is a compliment

Elaborate.

 

[Kurri ★]

Elaborate.

UMvC3 is a broken mess of a game that, although is insanely fun, is unbalanced as hell

 

[Grim!]

umvc3 is a fighting game where you can kill a character in one difficult combo but it is balanced.
zoning is just as effective as rushing bij just making all the characters good it had become a balanced game.
and things like defence are still important.Streetfighter does the opposite it nerfs everyone so matches
go on and on and on and on and on.So i think it is better to get a balance by buffing everyone.

 

[Raijinken]

Less defensive than Brawl, less aggressive than Melee or 64. It's unique.

Also, online is a terrible place to judge. Would YOU want to risk 50% of your match vitality (stupid 2-stock ruleset) when lag could throw something off?

 

[Kurri ★]

umvc3 is a fighting game where you can kill a character in one difficult combo but it is balanced.
zoning is just as effective as rushing bij just making all the characters good it had become a balanced game.
and things like defence are still important.Streetfighter does the opposite it nerfs everyone so matches
go on and on and on and on and on.So i think it is better to get a balance by buffing everyone.

Then why is every team Vergil, Lightning Loops, and Foot dive? jk

Again, no, buffing everyone doesn't necessarily lead to a better game, it also doesn't necessarily lead to a faster paced game. I haven't watched an SF game in a while, but I don't remember them lasting forever, I think you may be confusing it with SFxT, before the patch.

If you want a fighter that's fast and 'balanced' I'd recommend checking ASW's games, like Guilty Gear or Persona 4 Ultimax.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

umvc3 is a fighting game where you can kill a character in one difficult combo but it is balanced.

And I'm assuming that you can only do it with certain characters?

 

[Kurri ★]

And I'm assuming that you can only do it with certain characters?

Basically, not everyone has an infinite and for a lot of characters their only chance of dealing with it is if their opponent drops the combo.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

Basically, not everyone has an infinite and for a lot of characters their only chance of dealing with it is if their opponent drops the combo.

And Grim! said that Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 is "balanced"? That just reeks of know-it-all syndrome.

 

[Muro]

I wouldn't put much stock in SLHG... It destroys certain characters and many of the currently fast characters are slown down due to SHFF auto cancels on most moves being made impossible. That, and it'll never be balanced for.

It destroys no one, the engine is so lenient that even Sonic still retains a better recovery than your average melee character.

And lol at the slowing down bit. Faster fall speed + less lag in every aerial do not make the game slower, how the hell did you arrive at that?

1vs1 singles in base smash won't ever be balanced for either, sakurai doesn't care about the competitive aspect of the game, no matter how much you want it. Doubly so about custom moves.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

Sakurai doesn't care about the competitive aspect of the game, no matter how much you want it.

The only reason that I can see that he bothered with "competitive" gameplay in the first place with for Nintendo 3DS and Wii U is because the "competitive" fandom raised such a huge stink because of Brawl's anti-"competitive" gameplay. Melee was never intended to be as "competitive" as it was and Sakurai made the point he wanted to make about Super Smash Bros. clear with Brawl; I guess that the "competitive" never actually liked the true essence Super Smash Bros. to begin with.

 

[Raijinken]

The only reason that I can see that he bothered with "competitive" gameplay in the first place with for Nintendo 3DS and Wii U is because the "competitive" fandom raised such a huge stink because of Brawl's anti-"competitive" gameplay. Melee was never intended to be as "competitive" as it was and Sakurai made the point he wanted to make about Super Smash Bros. clear with Brawl; I guess that the "competitive" never actually liked the true essence Super Smash Bros. to begin with.

It really depends.

On one hand, Smash offers a lot that's unique in the fighting genre. Emphasized platform play, highly-dynamic stages, etc. There's no real set definition of the "right" way to play it competitively. If you want to make it like every other fighting game, then it stands to reason that we should basically play For Glory with Sudden Death, since that's a stripped-down stage, short matches, and the victory screen determines the winner.

But that, in my opinion (which I think many others share), is not why we play Smash. We play for the odd things (to an extent). That's why we try to make up a ton of external rules (different stocks/times, no sudden death, somewhat larger stage selection, various stage selection methods, the list goes on). We tend to try to hit that balance between emulating existing esports and fighting games, and being unique to Smash.

Personally, we as a Smash4 community have done a very terrible job of making our game's competitive ruleset. Heck, even with EVO's ruleset announced, most people don't follow its rules completely (especially on stage selection, if not custom moves). We're so splintered that even when Sakurai finally gave us something equivalent to a "suggested competitive ruleset," we won't use it, and we can't agree on one to make up.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

On one hand, Smash offers a lot that's unique in the fighting genre. Emphasized platform play, highly-dynamic stages, etc. There's no real set definition of the "right" way to play it competitively. If you want to make it like every other fighting game, then it stands to reason that we should basically play For Glory with Sudden Death, since that's a stripped-down stage, short matches, and the victory screen determines the winner.

I use "competitive" and all variations of that term in quotations specifically to denote how many people in fighting game communities often like to define it as: complex game controls with a high skill floor and ceiling and fast-paced gameplay so that players learn to adapt to the faster reaction times required to play efficiently. I use the term whenever I speak as it is generally defined outside of these communities (and how the majority of society does): having a drive or need to compete with one another. I've come to loathe several aspects of the fighting game communities but I won't go into that. The way I see it there is no right or wrong way to play competitively at all, and everyone who says otherwise need a head check.

Personally, we as a Smash4 community have done a very terrible job of making our game's competitive ruleset. Heck, even with EVO's ruleset announced, most people don't follow its rules completely (especially on stage selection, if not custom moves). We're so splintered that even when Sakurai finally gave us something equivalent to a "suggested competitive ruleset," we won't use it, and we can't agree on one to make up.

I think that that lies more with the Super Smash Bros. fandom being so diverse because it draws forth so many different types of people as opposed to several other fighting games, and there are as many different types of people as there can be. Not just 4's community but the whole community. 64 and Melee were better off because those were earlier in the franchise where there was significantly less diversity in the fandom and less adversity to differing opinions on what should and what should be. I like Melee itself as a game, but I believe that its "competitive" community was one of the leading factors in creating such a rift between Super Smash Bros. fandoms and the producers.

 

[Infinite901]

Thanks for all of the feedback guys. My two favorite characters in the game are Ike and Shulk. Do they have the ability to play offensively? I mean, after a bait and punish, go for tech chases, mixups, etc?

Shulk, definitely. Use those Arts right and you can do some sick things.

Ike, idk. Heavy hitter characters don't exactly lend themselves to offensive play in any Smash besides PM. (and sort of DK in N64) Playing a character like Ike requires patience, and it sounds like that's not the playstyle you like.

 

[Grim!]

And Grim! said that Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 is "balanced"? That just reeks of know-it-all syndrome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md8tTJIxnMo this are some of the kill combos there are in this game
im sorry but im just right about that.And lets be polite okay i dont like this kind of talking (That just reeks of know-it-all syndrome.)

Then why is every team Vergil, Lightning Loops, and Foot dive? jk

Again, no, buffing everyone doesn't necessarily lead to a better game, it also doesn't necessarily lead to a faster paced game. I haven't watched an SF game in a while, but I don't remember them lasting forever, I think you may be confusing it with SFxT, before the patch.

If you want a fighter that's fast and 'balanced' I'd recommend checking ASW's games, like Guilty Gear or Persona 4 Ultimax.

There are more than enough hulk storm wolverine dormammu and morigans in that game

 

[Kurri ★]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md8tTJIxnMo this are some of the kill combos there are in this game
im sorry but im just right about that.And lets be polite okay i dont like this kind of talking (That just reeks of know-it-all syndrome.)

From the video description itself:

UMVC3 impractical combo CMV.

They don't work in comp. play.
Here's something that's actually practical https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2dT3iFEGjg

There are more than enough hulk storm wolverine dormammu and morigans in that game

I said JK, but anyways, the game isn't balanced because there's really only a handful of viable characters.

 

[Grim!]

nothing is perfectly balanced if you look at it like you do now in umvc3 in competitions they use pretty much 10 to 12 characters.
ssb4 works pretty much the same when your in a tournament.so making it a little faster wouldnt hurt the game really.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

so making it a little faster wouldnt hurt the game really.

Faster gameplay simply means that players have to train their muscles to remember new reaction times and certain audiences will either like it or not. Faster gameplay is not by default a boon for the "competitive" scene.

 

[Grim!]

No thats true your right but i think that a match shouldnt take 5 min they should do something about that.
Maybe earlier deaths so that you can kill someone at 120%.And it would be cool if they would make spikes better in this
game.