The morality of using aliases in large tourneys.

[Olikus]

Don't Blink is actually me

I'm actually sheermadness

wut

But in all seriousness:
Sheer is allowed to use another alias and no one officially should be allowed to stop him from doing that. HOWEVER, a caveat: other players will get mad.

=O

Says who?

 

[clubbadubba]

new rule TO's should use to fix this ****:

If you entered a previous Apex with a particular tag, you must use the same tag for all future Apex tournaments. Or hey, how about we just require first and last names for the tournament, and check ID? my god that would almost make these official!

 

[M!nt]

sounds horrible, it's just a video game lol

 

[clubbadubba]

Using consistent names sounds horrible?

 

[SheerMadness]

Great point Mint.

 

[M!nt]

lol :3c I don't really like seeding in general, seems like it would be more fun if it was just random.

 

[clubbadubba]

that's not what tournaments are for...

any line of reasoning that says seeding sucks anyway is just irrelevant to this discussion.

so sheer did you decide you were going to enter under an alias without telling a TO? Because I'm totally doing that too.

 

[Cobrevolution]

if multiple people want to bypass seeding by entering under aliases, may as well remove it entirely. that way everyone is on equal footing.

 

[clubbadubba]

^you are right. which is why this shouldn't even be allowed

 

[Battlecow]

Yeah, if you guys really, really want random seeding...

screw you, lol. I'll make my own tournament, with blackjack and hookers.

And pools. And no aliases.

 

[Cobrevolution]

i'm down for blackjack and hookers. everytime i hear about a tournament i'm always like "oh cool i'll bring a six pack and then we can...oh wait, there are laws. woops."

 

[SheerMadness]

The point of this thread is to gauge the community's overall attitude towards aliases. If the vast majority of the community were against the idea I'd just let it go and not consider doing it again. That's clearly not the case though.

Because I'm totally doing that too.

I'd obviously completely support you if you wanted to. I seriously doubt you or much of anyone else would though. People always want the easiest path possible in tourneys, and using an unseeded alias would almost guarantee a tougher path.

 

[B Link]

Says who?

Says me, derp?

There are no rules against it yet. So sheer should be allowed to do it unless a new rule is made that prohibits it.

 

[Battlecow]

So we make a new rule that prohibits it. That's what this whole argument's about, ma dood. The legality of aliases

Sheer more than half of the community doesn't want you using an unseeded, so ima assume you won't pull that ****

if you do pull a seeded it's an advantage and me and clubba and probably at least a few other peeps who want any come-up they can get will nab that idea as well, which is gonna make it a ****-show but whatever

 

[cmu6eh]

Its a free country do what you want. First and last name wont work cause Some people are too young to have a id

 

[SheerMadness]

Entering under an unseeded alias will almost always work as a disadvantage to you. Even with the most elite players like Boom and Isai. Seeded they'll always be on opposites sides of the bracket. With an unseeded alias there's a decent shot they'd be on the same side.

That's why it's hard to see anyone following my trend and actually seriously considering it. I could care less about easy wins in earlier rounds, I'd rather have tougher more exciting match ups.

And like I've already addressed, I don't really agree there's any advantages with a seeded alias either.

 

[Olikus]

but thats the thing sheer. no one saying its advantage for you. Its disadvantage for the once that shoudnt be facing early because of seeding. Maybe you dont care if you get a easy 1. round. But other players might get ****ed.

 

[Cobrevolution]

yeah, that.
ask flamingfox55 if he's alright with facing you first round.

 

[B Link]

So we make a new rule that prohibits it. That's what this whole argument's about, ma dood. The legality of aliases

It seems to me that there are two distinct issues: the morality of aliases and the legality of aliases.

Morality of aliases: Assuming there isn't a rule, would it be morally right to use an alternate alias?

My position: It would be morally permissible assuming he's seeded properly. If he wasn't seeded properly it would either make things worse for sheer, or worse for others, depending on the randomness of his seeding. Thus, it would be morally right or wrong depending on the randomness of the seeding.

Legality of aliases: Should there be a rule to stop sheer from using an alternate alias? If so, why? If not, why not?

My position: The first problem with sheer being allowed to use an alternate alias, I think, is the following: if everyone followed suit and used an alternate alias. If everyone did this, it would result in random seeding. But I doubt anyone would agree to random seeding. This is because the tourney wouldn't really have accurate results in regard to who's better than who. Thus, it's likely that even if sheer uses an alternate name, and is seeded randomly, others would not follow suit. Again, this is because the tourney would not have accurate results. Also, they could get eliminated unusually early or late depending on luck.

Second problem: If he's not seeded correctly, there is a problem of unfairness. But this would depend on the randomness of the seeding. Note that this could work against sheer's favor: e.g. If sheer plays Isai in the first round.

TL;DR: A rule banning aliases should be implemented if he is seeded randomly and tourney hosts want accurate results. If he's seeded properly there are no problems.

Extra: Would it be more fun for sheer to use an alternate alias?

My position: Apparently he thinks it would be more exciting and tougher, assuming he's not seeded correctly . If he is seeded correctly, I don't see how that's any more fun for him.

Is it fun for others? If people don't figure out who he is, get ready for a pleasant/unpleasant surprise depending on how good you are.

 

[weedwack]

The community has made it clear that it prefers to have its tournaments seeded. Entering under an alias undermines this effort. That's what it comes down to for me. "Legal" or not, it conflicts with the wish of the community to have tournaments seeded as accurately as possible.

I also feel that knowing who you are likely to meet in bracket, so that you may prepare yourself for that match, is advantageous to many players. Entering under an alias allows you to know who you will likely play and prepare yourself for those matchups without your opponents being able to reciprocate.

 

[jimmyjoe]

Personally, I like knowing the player, doing my research and training(which I did for the first time before the red bank tourney), and the tourney being seeded as correctly as possible.
I think having an alias but being seeded properly will take away any benefit an opponent can get from preparing for you, while still allowing you that benefit. I don't think it should be allowed, but would also do it for the competitive edge I would gain. I enjoy the competitive aspect of tournaments in a very different way than friendlies. They are much more mentally taxing, and it does make a difference in later performance if you have a slew of tight matches.

Preparing for your opponents matters when you are close enough in skill level that the game could go either way. I have definitely benefited from preparing for my opponents:
In in Red bank rumble I knew I'd be facing a lot of Falcons on dreamland because Megavolt and Stranded were going to be there, and Chain Ace's rules favor DreamLand. Obviously I didn't have to prepare for unknowns or Sensei because those seemed like forgone conclusions in my mind, but beating stranded and Megavolt(even though stranded beat me in our rematch) were because I was able to steal the first game in our sets with strategy based on knowledge of their characters and play styles:

I hadn't played Kirby competitively since I started Z-canceling.
Apex 2012 I used pika, jiggly, Mario, and fox
Apex 2013 I used pika, and fox.
I never trained for Apex.

I trained and prepared for RBR

I felt I could steal a game against the falcon players on dreamland more easily as Kirby than pika, mainly because I knew they were so so comfy with those 0-Death falcon on Pika combos.
Strategy paid off and I stole the first game, was countered back to dreamland for game two, lost, Brought it to Hyrule with my counter pick and was able to win as pika on Hyrule in both cases.

Sorry for the rant, just giving some insight into my last tourney experience and I hope it was interesting and clear as to how much preparing for particular opponents can help.
I did play a lot with Sensei prior to RBR also, so that could have been the difference, but the matchup and player knowledge seems like it played a big part to me.

 

[SheerMadness]

So can someone think of a completely fair way to create a tougher bracket/more challenging path for someone like me (who wants it)? I don't want a bye round 1 then a boring round 2.

It doesn't sound like any of you would be happy if I simply requested not to be seeded either.

What's a fair solution here (for those of you against an unseeded alias)?

 

[clubbadubba]

Well there is no "fair" solution to this that will also accommodate you, because what you want to do is inherently unfair with respect to the desired outcome of a tournament. The best solution I can think of is for you to find other good players that want the same thing as you, and we could just have you guys play each other first/second round. But the thing is, even in doing that you don't really solve the issue of easy games.

For every tough game you have early, that allows a worse player to advance further into the tournament. Instead of having an easy 2nd round game, you now might have an easy 3rd round game against some scrub who only had to play scrubs because neither you nor the good player you played in the 2nd round had the chance to knock them out. It is true that you might luck out and never have to play this scrub depending on how the bracket works out, but then all you would be doing is passing the burden of ****ty games on to someone else, which isn't very cool.

The reality of playing in a tournament in which you can beat 75% of the field without trying is that you will have to play some easy games. These easy games are played early as opposed to later in the tournament because that is the most accurate way to determine placing.

 

[SheerMadness]

Actually I think I have potential solution. The CFL melee community has adopted a swiss style tourney format the past 2 years or so. Almost everyone prefers it to pools or brackets.

I'm sure a lot of you know what swiss is. For those who don't, you essentially play a determined amount of rounds depending on attendance, and the top 8/16 players in the standings after those rounds square off in a single elim bracket.

Everyone starts off with 0 points. If you win a round you get 3 points. If you lose you stay at 0 points and play someone else at 0 points next round. Same with winners. So each round you're always playing someone with a similar amount of points.

 

[jimmyjoe]

Interesting. How many predetermined rounds would we play at a tourney like Apex with say, 90 entrants or so?

 

[SheerMadness]

90-100 people would be 8-9 rounds of swiss. So everyone hovering around 6-7 wins(or 18-21 points) would likely be in the running for a shot at making it to the top 16 single elim bracket.

I also used to play Magic the Gathering competitively in middle school, and swiss is what they use for tourneys. So I'm very familiar with it from MTG and melee.

MTG always uses top 8 but in the CFL melee thing we usually do top 16. We could even make it top 32 or something if we wanted.

EDIT: Hmmm I've quickly found a flaw here. 100 people would be like 50 matches a round. We wouldn't have anywhere near the amount of set ups to get 8 or 9 rounds done in a realistic time period.

 

[madrush21]

so everyone would get to play at least 8-9 matches? I like that idea, might take a while though

 

[SheerMadness]

Yah everyone would be guaranteed 8 rounds of tourney play. We'd just need a lot of set ups (like at least 25) for it to be viable time wise.

 

[clubbadubba]

The more matches the better for sure. Swiss style would be great but setups is a huge issue. Pools would also be great. Either way, you will still probably have to play 2 to 3 ridiculously easy games though.

 

[Battlecow]

Swiss sounds OK from what I've heard, but the way I've seen it used in smash is instead of pools rather than instead of pools + bracket. I like my double elim bracket

And swiss does not solve your problem, sheer; you'd still probably have to play someone bad at some point, and since you're incapable of sucking it up and playing your matches you end up with the same problem you have with "normal" tourneys.

 

[Cobrevolution]

So can someone think of a completely fair way to create a tougher bracket/more challenging path for someone like me (who wants it)? I don't want a bye round 1 then a boring round 2.

play random characters. don't pick yoshi. that would probably make things a bit more challenging.

 

[SheerMadness]

Swiss pairings are usually random, even in round 1. It works out because you can still have a couple losses and make the cut at the end. So yes it's a hell of a lot better of a solution for me than seeded double elim brackets. Good try though battlecattle.

Plus Swiss avoids the lame byes all together. It would be perfect if we could get enough set ups.

 

[cmu6eh]

Swiss sucks cause the people you beat could drop out and ruin your ranking.

Battlecow, seeding is more unfair to worse players since they have to play the best people first. The other problem with seeding is what to do with the people in the middle that are difficult to seed. Pools make the most sense, but the 64 players do a horrible job at playing their matches in a timely manner without it.

64 players are pretty bad with doing stuff on time in general lol.

 

[SheerMadness]

Swiss sucks cause the people you beat could drop out and ruin your ranking.

With our melee community we don't use the swiss tie breaks to determine who gets the last spots (if they're tied points wise). We just make those tied players play it out with each other round robin style. Works out perfectly. Guess that might not work if like 10+ players are all tied at 18 or something. Not sure that would happen though.

I think swiss is better but pools are cool too.

 

[Nintendude]

Swiss / pools is something that requires a lot more setups than what we had at Apex 2013. Also, as soon as someone enters a tourney, they are at the mercy of the TOs. There's no "fair solution" here. If you want to enter our tournament, you are going to abide by our rules or be DQ'd.

 

[Battlecow]

Swiss pairings are usually random, even in round 1. It works out because you can still have a couple losses and make the cut at the end. So yes it's a hell of a lot better of a solution for me than seeded double elim brackets. Good try though battlecattle.

Plus Swiss avoids the lame byes all together. It would be perfect if we could get enough set ups.

I mean you were saying earlier that playing one easy match was unbearable for you, and I was just pointing out that swiss does not solve this

Swiss sucks cause the people you beat could drop out and ruin your ranking.

Battlecow, seeding is more unfair to worse players since they have to play the best people first. The other problem with seeding is what to do with the people in the middle that are difficult to seed. Pools make the most sense, but the 64 players do a horrible job at playing their matches in a timely manner without it.

64 players are pretty bad with doing stuff on time in general lol.

From what I've seen we're pretty good at playing our matches, with one or two notable exceptions (*cough* jerry *cough* *cough* megavolt)

Swiss / pools is something that requires a lot more setups than what we had at Apex 2013. Also, as soon as someone enters a tourney, they are at the mercy of the TOs. There's no "fair solution" here. If you want to enter our tournament, you are going to abide by our rules or be DQ'd.

Then we get more setups. Pools are ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, and the fact that we're now sort of OK with straight-to-bracket tourneys is way way way ****ed up. This is a real game, yo.

 

[SheerMadness]

Gonna do something rare and agree with battlecattle. Swiss and or pools are a must for future ssb64 events at Apex.

It's a bit ridiculous that ssb64 had basically finished everything on friday while saturday and sunday were purely friendlies. We had two extra days we could have used to run pools. We provided our own consoles and TV's, which we had to ourselves the whole weekend. The TV's weren't needed or used for any other events.

There's no reason we couldn't have done pools on friday and then the bracket early saturday.

So I guess with that in mind I don't see why we wouldn't have time for swiss either.

 

[Nintendude]

We're already working on having pools and a more legit schedule for next Apex. Don't worry

 

[KnitePhox]

TEAMS AT NEXT APEX?

if people send me them and pay shipping+parts, i can oc up like 20 consoles by next apex ez. only prerequisites are original nintendo brand memory + the console boards must be from clear consoles. i can even label switch positions. i got the mod locked down SPEEDY now.


aaawe i really want a legit console teams tourney

 

[AtotheZ]

Swiss is a lot of fun, and absolutely brutal. They use that for the Pokemon VGC tourneys. I like it a lot more than bracket because if you're a new player, or not as experienced, you get a lot of competition at or around your level for almost every match (especially during the last half of swiss), and the competition feels a bit tighter because of it too.