the metagame of ness

[ChivalRuse]

The difference in disjointedness between front and back utilts is actually pretty small for the two frames when Ness' head is invincible and for the frames after it's significantly more disjointed in the front.

Also I think we should take a look at ftilt's uses for stuffing as well. CF has good range that he can put right in front of you(nair and uair) rather than above you and a high-angled ftilt will beat those a lot more than a utilt which is more likely to lose or trade.

Well I was looking specifically at how far the hitbox extends out from his lower body and torso, since his head is invincible. It seems like the horizontal range of u-tilt goes about twice as far behind him than in front of him. I might need to take a few screenshots and analyze them more though.

 

[Jamwa]

we can beat fox/falco bair if we can djc nair so that we're fast falling with them, and are positioned slightly behind them, as illustrated:
backwards DJ will give you more momentum than forwards dj so its very easy to confuse the falco/fox with this odd micro spacing. usually the bairs you counter with this backwards djc nair are ones placed to beat our sh/fh fairs

if we hit fox/falco with this kind of nair, they will either have to be ready to tech due to the low kb, or will be put into that weird landing lag sort of thing if they're close enough to the ground but not high % enough to enter tumble.
in the case of the former, that either means you can techchase pretty easily with dash attack/grab, or dtilt them if they miss tech.
if they're too low to be put in tumble, and you get that weird laggy landing state, you can combo into ftilt, utilt or grab depending on their DI and whether you ACd the nair or not.
if they're super low percent, ftilt isnt reliable coz they can shine/grab i think (esp if they accidentally di down because they were holding it to input shine/fastfall), so just reset neutral as best you can or go for a read if you have picked upon their habits in this situation

you can uair straight after the nair if you ledge cancel, or (pivot) usmash if you teeter cancel. you should be able to do the same inputs (hold backwards, jump, up+a) and do either options without having to react to whether u fell off the platform or just teeter cancelled, so that's neat.

uair also works in this situation, the spacing is just very specific and requires a very quick djc+fast fall, so its easy to screw up but usually you get huge combos from it. i usually claw grip to input these kinds of uairs otherwise it feels like im doing fighting game inputs lmao

this only works because hitboxes extend in the direction opposite your movement (so the spacie bair will be less disjoint than normal, and ness' aerial will be more disjoint than normal). since falco/fox fall faster than we do they suffer more loss of disjoint, and since we fall slower we benefit from less gain of disjoint - this fall speed dynamic is a little important when understanding what kind of DJCs you can do in matchups. i've found that ness relies on using djc fast fall to extend his disjoint as much as possible to make landing hard for other characters, as it really lets you control the momentum in matchups by hitting characters up and then landing asap and regaining stage positioning

 

[ChivalRuse]

So similar to how the 20GX movement is crouch cancelling getup attack > jump forward SH knee, Ness can crouch cancel a getup attack > jump forward SH auto cancelled dair. Just felt like sharing, because I haven't seen Ness players using this in the current meta; I have tested it in matches and it works great.

 

[Ganreizu]

So similar to how the 20GX movement is crouch cancelling getup attack > jump forward SH knee, Ness can crouch cancel a getup attack > jump forward SH auto cancelled dair. Just felt like sharing, because I haven't seen Ness players using this in the current meta; I have tested it in matches and it works great.

Oh **** that's actually great to know.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yes because it gives you an optimal punish most of the time while not requiring you to be stuck in shield for the getup attack, which limits your dashing options were they to instead wake up by rolling left or right.

 

[whims]

confirmed, ness really is captain falcon

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Yes because it gives you an optimal punish most of the time while not requiring you to be stuck in shield for the getup attack, which limits your dashing options were they to instead wake up by rolling left or right.

Only problem is, dashing backwards out of crouch (which you'll have to do to grab/dash attack get-up roll behind in this situation) is really hard and often controller dependent. Otherwise it's a great thing to add to your tech chase arsenal. Here's a clip of the magic in action.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Only problem is, dashing backwards out of crouch (which you'll have to do to grab/dash attack get-up roll behind in this situation) is really hard and often controller dependent. Otherwise it's a great thing to add to your tech chase arsenal. Here's a clip of the magic in action.

Yeah, I'm aware of the difficulty of dashing back out of a crouch. Ness has a good wavedash, so you can substitute wavedash back to cover the roll behind. Depending on the grounded character's roll distance, I believe you have enough time to turnaround grab after the wavedash.

 

[Jamwa]

powershielding getups is way more baller imo
rather not take the % and flashy flashy *_*

 

[ChivalRuse]

Can Ness duck under some characters' grabs? I believe I was able to crouch under Ganon's grab a few times.

 

[Ganreizu]

Can Ness duck under some characters' grabs? I believe I was able to crouch under Ganon's grab a few times.

If i remember correctly you can duck under ganon's standing grab only. His running grab still grabs a ducking ness.

As far as i know he is the only character tall enough for this to happen.

 

[The Realest]

If i remember correctly you can duck under ganon's standing grab only. His running grab still grabs a ducking ness.

As far as i know he is the only character tall enough for this to happen.

You can also duck under Falcons if you're faced away from him. If you're facing towards Falcon he can get the grab because of Ness' big ass head. You can do a reverse Uair or Bair and crouch before Falcon can grab and react with something like Utilt.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Okay if it's pretty much just Ganon, then it's probably not something that matters too much for Ness.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Dash grabs almost universally hit lower and more behind than standing grabs.

Also, Ness can crouch under the following grabs:
-Ganondorf.
-Peach.
-Zelda.
-Falcon, facing away and as long as you arent up against his body. If you are against his body then only during some of the frames on Ness' crouching idle(the frames where Ness is lower to the ground).
-Marth, standing just outside the edge of his grab range and crouching into it OR standing just inside the edge of his grab range and crouching away from it.
-Mewtwo, as long as you arent up against his body.

EDIT: These are all standing grabs

 

[Ten of Nine]

Can someone tell me the frame timers on Ness's strong Nair and Bair

Bair seems to have a really small window (like 2 frames) while it feels like strong Nair stays out much longer (like 5-6 frames)

 

[ChivalRuse]

As with any sex kick, the strong hit lasts for only the first few frames of the active hitbox. I'm pretty sure Ness is not an exception. From my experience, if I wait anywhere close to the 5-6 frames you are suggesting, it is always a weak hit.

 

[Ten of Nine]

Well, actually you are completely wrong on this Chival. A while ago I remember recording Ness stuff at 60fps, on his Nair I recall getting it 10-11 frames after the Nair started, meaning 5-6 frames since active hitbox. I recorded it again just now and got 12 frames after Nair (7 after hitbox active).

I just went ahead and DLed all the masterhand stuff which I was hoping to avoid (it's an .exe from the internet), and it confirms what I was observing.

There's an asynchronous timer duration of 8 frames for the strong Nair hit. So the strong hit lasts 8 frames, almost half the entire Nair!
I was looking into this because Ness's Nair coupled with his awesome DJC burst speed forwards makes the range on strong Nair pretty amazing OoS. Not to mention it's pretty powerful for it's damage and speed.

I found out that Pichu and Pikachu's Nairs are similar, both have strong Nair hits that last 8 frames, then it's weak.
Dr. Mario of course being the oddball with his sex kick weak Nair for the first for 20 frames, then the strong hit.
Link, YL and Puff's strong Nair only lasts 2 frames.
Fox, Falco, Samus, Yoshi, Peach, Mario, Luigi, Sheik's Nair last 4 frames on the strong hit.

 

[Jamwa]

blah blah blah

stay on topic or get out. frame data is cool but if you're not using it to support setplay or reactionary follow ups then what r u contributing that ppl dont already know.
also necroing the frame data thread to tell people pk flash gets bigger was pointless.... im pretty sure its common knowledge

in other news my keyboard broke i typed all this with onscreen keyboard its literally painful
i am also trying out 1.0 ness - pkt is amazing in 1.0 and should be tournament standard

 

[Ten of Nine]

stay on topic or get out. frame data is cool but if you're not using it to support setplay or reactionary follow ups then what r u contributing that ppl dont already know.
also necroing the frame data thread to tell people pk flash gets bigger was pointless.... im pretty sure its common knowledge

in other news my keyboard broke i typed all this with onscreen keyboard its literally painful
i am also trying out 1.0 ness - pkt is amazing in 1.0 and should be tournament standard

My post you just replied to is probably about 3000% more relevant than what you just replied with. What did you just contribute? Aside from revealing that you are pretty toxic and telling us about your keyboard which no one cares about? What does that have to do with the Meta of Ness?

I don't know if you are bitter with something going on in your life and you decided to carry your problem into this thread, but really your post was rude and pedantic. I pointed out the size of the PK flash increasing dramatically because standardtoaster (the OP himself) gave some information about it being useless since the hitbox was so tiny and didn't indicate it grew at all. Not really true, the size increase gives it some utility to cut off a recovery and cover the other options when they avoid the Flash. The STRONG Nair lasting 8 frames is also pretty significant since it means the longer it lasts the more horizontal distance Ness can cover before it becomes weak (thanks to his DJC porperties.) That is not common knowledge as was just demonstrated above, and I'm sure even a lot of Ness mains didn't know that it lasted so long.

You can't really necro a sticked thread its going to be at the top of the page no matter what, so I'm not sure what you are crying about that for. If a mod wants to come and ban me for that, I will gladly accept. As far as I know anyone is free to post in those threads no matter the last post date as long as it is relevant to the discussion.

 

[ChivalRuse]

My post you just replied to is probably about 3000% more relevant than what you just replied with. What did you just contribute? Aside from revealing that you are pretty toxic and telling us about your keyboard which no one cares about? What does that have to do with the Meta of Ness?

I don't know if you are bitter with something going on in your life and you decided to carry your problem into this thread, but really your post was rude and pedantic. I pointed out the size of the PK flash increasing dramatically because standardtoaster (the OP himself) gave some information about it being useless since the hitbox was so tiny and didn't indicate it grew at all. Not really true, the size increase gives it some utility to cut off a recovery and cover the other options when they avoid the Flash. The STRONG Nair lasting 8 frames is also pretty significant since it means the longer it lasts the more horizontal distance Ness can cover before it becomes weak (thanks to his DJC porperties.) That is not common knowledge as was just demonstrated above, and I'm sure even a lot of Ness mains didn't know that it lasted so long.

You can't really necro a sticked thread its going to be at the top of the page no matter what, so I'm not sure what you are crying about that for. If a mod wants to come and ban me for that, I will gladly accept. As far as I know anyone is free to post in those threads no matter the last post date as long as it is relevant to the discussion.

I wasn't aware that Ness had a unique timer on his sex kick. That's useful to know. Thanks

 

[Jamwa]

ok moving on from random facts about ness you should already know

fast djc uair is like best tool against falcon if you see him nair
uthrow on fox doesn't seem to reliably lead into anything except uair at percents higher than 100, but against falco u get meaty bairs. i say meaty coz if you miss the sweetspot you'll most definitely get the softspot and you can sometimes combo that into another bair/fair. if you cant you can very easily cover falco's landing and if he double jumps you get a pretty free pkt1
pkt1 is also basically guaranteed to shield poke any character if they are above you on a platform.
the uair against fox definitely has follow ups if you can land on a platform, but its hard to setup since you have to instantly dj to get to fox fast enough and hope after the peak of your jump you're landing asap
first hit fair -> grab/ac dair is gud as mixup. if they shield the ac dair you're safe to dtilt -> nair or soemthing dumb to screw with people's inputs. if they cc a lot its good to just nair away or wd away.

i figured out you can get rlly sick suicide pkt2 kills against luigi coz his recovery is so damn slow lmao

dthrow is a good di mixup against people that try to DI infront of you for bthrow. at high percents you can get ez bairs
this does rely on the other play not knowing what to do though, as you can very easily react during the dthrow animation and just hold backwards. some people like to ignore easy things though

 

[ChivalRuse]

Aren't there some mixups where if you grab Fox when facing the edge, you can uthrow him expecting him to DI behind you and combo that throw into a bair. Also d-throw can do cool stuff on midweights if they DI behind you.

 

[Jamwa]

the only way uthrow combos into bair on fox is if his DI allows you to backwards DJ to chase him (as backwards DJ rises faster than forwards DJ), otherwise you will only get an uair (and it has to be very tightly spaced, coz he can jump/shine out otherwise).

im pretty sure the fox's i vs dont know this, but its not often i can combo into bair

i generally get most grabs facing towards the middle of the stage due to how fox commands positioning in this matchup, and they generally DI towards the stage so i cant Backwards DJ at them

thanks for reminding me to mention this though, ness is so niche sometimes i forget he can do things



dthrow is definitely weird. i've found it most useful on FoD as it can set up some really convenient tech chases on the platform if the stars align (percent, DI, character weight). it's also very good on its own against fast fallers on big platforms like battlefield's, provided they cant DI off the platform and get a lag cancelling ledge cancel or just fall straight off and jump, as it will set up an easy YYG or regrab

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Pizza pie (uthrow) and spicy farts (dthrow) have animations that are too long to effectively be used as DI mix-ups in my experience. That's what Ness gets for being a visually interesting character. I made a post about dthrow tech chasing spacies a couple pages ago.

 

[Jamwa]

yeah as i said, people are really good at not remembering which way to DI against ness because they dont know much about the character
the fear of bthrow can be really strong and ppl stop paying attention
people also see the pizza pie animation and forget which way ness was facing when he started it (dthrow is more obvious)
i only say that last one because it happens to me in PM when i play against ness (who is broken in that game for sure just doesn't feel fun playing a good ness maybe im stubborn)

 

[Jamwa]

there's this really cool thing u can do against ****ing bull**** cahracters like marth where you fall down and nair off stage and if he hits you with up-b you techjump & just nair him anyway thank you for listening

i stole this idea from that really good peach player

 

[ChivalRuse]

Pretty sure I've seen this discussed before but: Ness's backwards double jump from the ledge allows him to waveland on much faster. Not sure if he's fully invincible. Hopefully someone can test in action replay.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Pretty sure I've seen this discussed before but: Ness's backwards double jump from the ledge allows him to waveland on much faster. Not sure if he's fully invincible. Hopefully someone can test in action replay.

We gotta get the doublejump no-impact landing from the edge.