The Metagame and Ness

[APlainOldBanana]

This is something that I've been thinking about for long time now, but I'm just getting around to posting about it. I want to hear you guys opinions; how do you think Ness will do as the metagame evolves? Ness got noticeably buffed in this game, and has been getting very small buffs for the last few patches now, he has gotten buffed to the point where he is a tournament threat. Not ZSS or Sheik, mind you, but Ness is certainly up there. FOW getting 7th at EVO was a good showing of what Ness is capable of...except for Rosalina. I consider Ness right now is a Top 7 character, maybe even Top 6, but where do you think Ness will go as the metagame evolves?

 

[Objekshin]

It really all depends until Sakurai decides that OP characters are just too OP. The same goes for any character really.

I can't say for sure, but since Ness has solid damage output and decent combo ability, there will always be Ness mains.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Ness won't likely be nerfed, since he's been consistently bottom tier for several iterations of Smash Bros and Sakurai seems to know that Ness fares best during the early days of each Smash.
Ness was top tier in SSB64, but as people learned how to handle him, he fell to the bottom. In every iteration, no matter where he started from, he has fallen as people learned how to cope.

 

[XCounter]

I think the only way is down, if I'm honest.

Even though I doubt he'll get a major nerf in any upcoming patches, I also don't think he'll get any huge buffs, either. People are slowly starting to figure out (or remember) how to take advantage of Ness and some characters that weren't really a problem before like Meta Knight, Ike and DK have received significant buffs that now make them threats.

You can argue that he's top 10 now, but I think he'll be in a similar position as he is in the Japanese tier list about a year or two from now. Can't see him being lower than top 20 at the worst, though.

 

[pk_melee]

Ness's recovery is gimpable, so unless the mechanics of double jump or PK Thunder change then I can't really see him going anywhere but down in the best players' "tournament results" tier list.

He seems very viable for competition with non-perfect "good" players, though. Honestly there should be a different tier list for that discussion.

 

[APlainOldBanana]

Man, it really seems like Ness just doesn't have it good in Smash (with the exception of Smash 4). It's kind of a shame; I like seeing tournament results from Ness. Since I didn't say so in the post, the reason I'm wondering this is actually because he's good now. I've always liked Ness but I'm just now wanting to start playing competitively.

 

[pk_melee]

Do it then. He's great on For Glory and for the casual tournament at your college or whatever.

It's just that at EVO you'll get counterpicked to face Rosalina/Lucas, then thrown off the ledge and gimped. And those results will result in Ness being a mid tier.

But that's not a problem if you're never going to play at EVO.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Do it then. He's great on For Glory and for the casual tournament at your college or whatever.

It's just that at EVO you'll get counterpicked to face Rosalina/Lucas, then thrown off the ledge and gimped. And those results will result in Ness being a mid tier.

But that's not a problem if you're never going to play at EVO.

I've actually been thinking we probably won't ever see a ness take a big tournament because of the existence of Rosa alone. Without Rosa we would definitely see more ness' placing high and maybe even taking some tournaments. It's just becoming increasingly obvious to me that ness mains need a secondary for that matchup, specifically at the top level.

I don't think ness will ever be lower than A tier, he's just too good, he'll just never take EVO or anything like that.

 

[Asa]

Honestly the only rosalina that has been putting a serious hamper in ness's tournament results is dabuz. Andd if I may, flow and cheeky aren't playong the matchup as well as they should be which contributes to them losing harder.

Having a secondary for the matchup is suggested though lol

 

[pk_melee]

Yeah honestly I really like the Rosalina matchup. Ness performs really well against Luna. Does suck when they get the gimp though. I'll have to see what this matchup looks like at the top levels.

I find Lucas to be much harder. Mirror match but he has the slight speed advantage, 2 spikes, and that same PK Thunder absorb gimp.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

I would give the edge to Ness, over Lucas.
Ness hits a ton harder and KO's a lot earlier.
Ness can KO Lucas off the top long before Lucas can do the same to him.
Ness is just better in the air and out-prioritizes many of Lucas' aerials.
Sure, Lucas can gimp Ness, but Ness can do it to Lucas, too.

 

[Asa]

To be fair it's pretty difficult to gimp Lucas tho

 

[Lochy]

Yeah. Lucas also has his tether to get back to the stage.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

To be fair it's pretty difficult to gimp Lucas tho

Tethers don't have invincibility, so if he is close enough to try that, he can get naired away.
This is par for the course for Ness against tether recoveries.

 

[L9999]

Do it then. He's great on For Glory and for the casual tournament at your college or whatever.

It's just that at EVO you'll get counterpicked to face Rosalina/Lucas, then thrown off the ledge and gimped. And those results will result in Ness being a mid tier.

But that's not a problem if you're never going to play at EVO.

So I'm not the only one who find fighting Lucas annoying? Good. Lucas is just as annoying as Rosalina. Miss ANYTHING and you get grabbed, Naired offstage, and Rosalina-gimped. And Ness can't really risk going out to do a Rosalina-gimp because Lucas has the snake and can Bair spike Ness off the screen. And the fact that Lucas's recovery has a gigantic distance doesn't help at all. He can just camp you below the stage doing PK Thunder over and over again and Ness can do nothing about it. And that damn stick. Ness can't land at all thanks to that damn stick.

 

[Asa]

So I'm not the only one who find fighting Lucas annoying? Good. Lucas is just as annoying as Rosalina. Miss ANYTHING and you get grabbed, Naired offstage, and Rosalina-gimped. And Ness can't really risk going out to do a Rosalina-gimp because Lucas has the snake and can Bair spike Ness off the screen. And the fact that Lucas's recovery has a gigantic distance doesn't help at all. He can just camp you below the stage doing PK Thunder over and over again and Ness can do nothing about it. And that damn stick. Ness can't land at all thanks to that damn stick.

Ur bad pls stahp

 

[Asa]

Tethers don't have invincibility, so if he is close enough to try that, he can get naired away.
This is par for the course for Ness against tether recoveries.

I know it's possible to gimp Lucas , and he's tether recoveries do have that weakness. However the fact that he has different ways to mix up his recovery makes him much less susceptible to getting gimped.

 

[L9999]

View attachment 72983
Ur bad pls stahp

....?

 

[Asa]

Recover high against Lucas, he can't do anything serious to you if you do.

Lucas's grab is pretty slow.. Ness has the frame data to avoid getting grabbed after missing "anything ".

Nairs KB and trajectory doesn't put you in a position that's too unfavorable

Rosa is best edge guarded with dsmash as she gets near the ledge.you can do this to Lucas as well.

Lucas's bat doesn't make landing hell. Don't land near him if you're getting hit by it.

Lucas's bair is slow and avoidable. It should not deter you from attempting an edgguard.

What do you mean by "camping under the stage with pkt"?

 

[L9999]

Recover high against Lucas, he can't do anything serious to you if you do.

Lucas's grab is pretty slow.. Ness has the frame data to avoid getting grabbed after missing "anything ".

Nairs KB and trajectory doesn't put you in a position that's too unfavorable

Rosa is best edge guarded with dsmash as she gets near the ledge.you can do this to Lucas as well.

Lucas's bat doesn't make landing hell. Don't land near him if you're getting hit by it.

Lucas's bair is slow and avoidable. It should not deter you from attempting an edgguard.

What do you mean by "camping under the stage with pkt"?

It's a figurative speech. Lucas can be anywhere in the screen and still recover with PKT. If he uses PKT he will likely be in a place where Ness can't Rosalina-gimp him.

 

[Asa]

Ah I see what you're saying. The way you worded it made it sound like Lucas is sharking you under the stage.. Why don't you just say absorb? Lol

Ness can't flat out absorb his recovery easily, true. However he still has good tools to edgeguard Lucas

 

[Scootch]

I don't know. He is a good character, he is definitely top tier. I hope Sakurai doesn't patch anymore characters in the updates because that makes the game inconsistent.

 

[Yogurt]

jeez I hope he doesnt go down, I recently just picked him up again and I'm considering making him my main again.....

 

[Noa.]

Ness is top tier now. He will probably not receive any nerfs because he isn't regarded highly in Japan, and that's where the balance team draws most of its decisions from.

Ness will stay top tier for a while, but he may drop to the top of high tier. It is unlikely that he will ever drop out of high tier though. His moves are overtuned and the risk reward ratio is really skewed on them. The frame data on his moves is pretty remarkable for how much damage they do, and he has some of the biggest hitboxes out of all the cast.

PK thunder and PK Fire are the most unique aspects of Ness and they are tools that can be further developed.

 

[Asa]

Me and my friend were looking at Ryus frame data for no reason.. Damn

 

[pk_melee]

> Rosa is best edge guarded with dsmash as she gets near the ledge.you can do this to Lucas as well.

What's the optimal yo-yo edgeguard? Face away from the stage, with a bit of spacing to allow the yo-yo to peek out over the ledge?

 

[pk_melee]

We also have't talked about halving Ness's recovery distance by intentionally getting hit by PKT2, or especially using Counter during a recovery :/

 

[L9999]

We also have't talked about halving Ness's recovery distance by intentionally getting hit by PKT2, or especially using Counter during a recovery :/

Oh yeah, that is the new fashion of the metagame. Get intentionally hit to cut Ness' distance and tech to survive.

 

[Asa]

It's alway been that way lol

 

[Kodystri]

Yeah honestly I really like the Rosalina matchup. Ness performs really well against Luna. Does suck when they get the gimp though. I'll have to see what this matchup looks like at the top levels.

I find Lucas to be much harder. Mirror match but he has the slight speed advantage, 2 spikes, and that same PK Thunder absorb gimp.

Lucas and Ness play completely different. They only have 4 similar moves, PK Thunder, FSmash, PSI Magnet, and PK Freeze(PK Fire is not similar because it works completely different).

I will repeat this again, THEY ARE NOT CLONES WHATSOEVER. They have completely different moves besides those 4 i mentioned.

 

[Vyrnx]

I felt like this was a relevant thread to ask this in, but
Ness is the top tier I know the least about, probably because my scene doesn't have any and I haven't watched much Ness gameplay.
So I was just wondering, why is Ness so unanimously considered top tier? I am not saying he isn't, I understand that he is top tier. I just don't know the reasons. Is it just his aerials and back throw?
Whenever I hear about Ness I hear people talking about who he loses to (Rosalina)--which of the other top tiers does he win against?

 

[EnhaloTricks]

I felt like this was a relevant thread to ask this in, but
Ness is the top tier I know the least about, probably because my scene doesn't have any and I haven't watched much Ness gameplay.
So I was just wondering, why is Ness so unanimously considered top tier? I am not saying he isn't, I understand that he is top tier. I just don't know the reasons. Is it just his aerials and back throw?
Whenever I hear about Ness I hear people talking about who he loses to (Rosalina)--which of the other top tiers does he win against?

He's good for a lot of reasons.

A lot of priority on his aerials (i.e., large hitboxes), lots of kill moves, moves that do a lot of damage, good double jump, great OoS options, guaranteed combos (at some percents), great frame data, and he tends to always have a lot of options about what to do.

Imo, he loses to Sheik, ZSS, and Fox, but goes relatively even with most other top tiers. Might lose to some others as well, but only a 55:45, nothing too unmanageable. Fast rushdown characters give him trouble cause he's so slow, but his damage output is so good the game can usually be evened out pretty fast.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Ness struggles harder vs Rosalina, Luigi, and Mario, than he does Fox.

If you're having a hard time with Fox, you may want to watch some replays of the matchup played by highly skilled players.
Fox's aerial moves are a bigger commitment than Ness', so once he starts, he's locked into them for longer, giving Ness an edge in the air.
On the ground, Fox is no more of a threat than other rushdown grab/attack characters. (Like Sonic.)
Offstage Foxes are dead, versus Ness.

Nesses are currently succeeding versus the overall sum of the cast, but losing to the highest tiered characters. (Which can be said of most of the high tier characters.)
Some characters are high tier because they do well versus other high tiers, despite having critical weaknesses to lower tier characters. Ness is decisively not in this category.
His advantage, in part, comes from many players not yet understanding his weaknesses yet, but as with every game in the series, people will learn.

Ness may actually be best in doubles, rather than 1v1, interestingly enough. When partnered with ZSS, his weaknesses to Rosalina and Luigi are mitigated, letting him shine.

 

[Lochy]

Ness struggles harder vs Rosalina, Luigi, and Mario, than he does Fox.

If you're having a hard time with Fox, you may want to watch some replays of the matchup played by highly skilled players.
Fox's aerial moves are a bigger commitment than Ness', so once he starts, he's locked into them for longer, giving Ness an edge in the air.
On the ground, Fox is no more of a threat than other rushdown grab/attack characters. (Like Sonic.)
Offstage Foxes are dead, versus Ness.

Nesses are currently succeeding versus the overall sum of the cast, but losing to the highest tiered characters. (Which can be said of most of the high tier characters.)
Some characters are high tier because they do well versus other high tiers, despite having critical weaknesses to lower tier characters. Ness is decisively not in this category.
His advantage, in part, comes from many players not yet understanding his weaknesses yet, but as with every game in the series, people will learn.

Ness may actually be best in doubles, rather than 1v1, interestingly enough. When partnered with ZSS, his weaknesses to Rosalina and Luigi are mitigated, letting him shine.

I've done doubles before with my buddy Matthew and I have to say when you have ZSS putting on so much pressure Ness can do what he wants and it feels amazing :D

 

[APlainOldBanana]

His advantage, in part, comes from many players not yet understanding his weaknesses yet, but as with every game in the series, people will learn.

IMO Ness' weakness is still his recovery, but it seems like almost no one goes to take advantage of it... other than Dabuz...

 

[L9999]

IMO Ness' weakness is still his recovery, but it seems like almost no one goes to take advantage of it... other than Dabuz...

Even if you posted this everywhere they wouldn't learn.

 

[Furret24]

View attachment 74946 View attachment 74948 View attachment 74949
Even if you posted this everywhere they wouldn't learn.

They probably ignore it since they don't wanna risk getting killed at 25%. Because we all know how OP that move is, right?

 

[EnhaloTricks]

They probably ignore it since they don't wanna risk getting killed at 25%. Because we all know how OP that move is, right?

It's not that OP. Just lrn2tech. It's also pretty easy to figure out when a Ness is going to use it.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

IMO Ness' weakness is still his recovery, but it seems like almost no one goes to take advantage of it... other than Dabuz...

He also struggles with spacing, spam, and range. Megaman can give him a nightmare of projectile flinching, ranged characters can space him out, characters with quick moves can take advantage of his slow start-ups and stale options, and despite being the king of back throw, he's also weak to grabby characters that will toss him off and edgeguard.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

So from what I can tell his weaknesses are
Overall short ranged attacks
Below average mobility
Recovery issues
Weak ground game
Can't do too much against shields
Poor approach in general.