The Meat Industry

[Ajna]

This thread's purpose is to debate the moral implications of the meat industry and its purpose in society. This threads purpose is not to debate the idea of morals overall, or the eating of meat overall. Im sure these sub-topics will come up in the debate , I am only asking as the starter of this thread that we do not dwell on these subjects and try to keep the intention of the OP in perspective.


Now to get things started:

I believe that the meat industry turns viable life forms into a product, effectively desensitizing a majority of society to the sacrifice being made to give them food and to a lesser extent the practices that make that food available in mass quantity.

I will only discuss the practices of battery farms if any of you, or myself based on your counter-arguments feels like it is necessary. Until then I will assume that most of you are educated on what goes on in those places, and many believe they are inhumane. If anyone disagrees that these practices are disgusting however I will be more than happy to discuss this with you.

That being said, It is my stance that even farms that practice free-range methods with harvesting and selling their meat are still part of the problem. The problem? The mass global industrialization of the meat industry.
Life is vampiric in that it must consume other life to continue living. Whether we choose to eat a piece of celery, a cow, or another human being- to sustain our own lives we must end another to whatever extent.
For most people... it would be somewhat unsettling to go into the woods, bash a rabbit over the head with a rock, and then eat it. But there is no such emotion given to a chicken nugget, whose path to become a chicken nugget was guaranteed to have been part of a life of "food slavery" in that from the time they were born it had been decided that they would one day be a chicken nugget. In the example of a battery farm (which in case this is not common knowledge, the meat you purchase comes from a battery farm unless marked otherwise.) Not only had it been born into a world where it would have no other purpose other than to become human food, but its short life was absolutely filled with it being subjected to horrendous and torturous practices.
Either way, in most countries, if you are a chicken... you are human food. You have no other purpose in life. When I say purpose, I do not mean effectiveness for human life of course.. but for chicken life. We are the only animals in nature that consume more than we need to. By consume i do not mean it as directly as eating... but in a much broader sense. Most of the chickens, cows, and pigs of the world for a very large quantity of time have been in cages so their children, and their children, and their children, can feed our children and their children and their children etc.
This i believe has made society in a general sense desensitized to the sacrifice being made. A life is being extinguished so that you may sustain your own.
If you were to poll everyone that walks into a mcdonalds and orders a hamburger if they would be willing to take a trip to the slaughter house and personally kill a cow so that it can be made into the burger they are ordering (disregarding the time this would take of course for the sake of the point) I believe the average person would not want that blood on their hands.
I am not arguing that the killing of the cow is wrong, as that we have to consume other life to sustain our own, as was originally stated in this thread. However, I am suggesting that the connection that your hamburger was once a living creature, that is now dead so that you may have a hamburger and continue living is lost in the process created by the industrialization of meat as a product by the time it gets to the consumer.
This is a sacrifice that would be impossible to ignore if you were taking the life yourself. The fact that this is an unsettling idea to many is unsettling to me.

 

[Sucumbio]

...

Sorry, I was finishing up my Steak.

Now! Onto the pressing matter of this topic. Which is for all intents and purposes your observation that we as a society don't cry every time we ...

...

mmm, last piece, swear!....

... eat a Steak.

Well there's one BIG reason why -I- don't cry when I eat a steak, or a burger, a chicken nugget, or a wal-mart bag-o-tilapia (farmed fish is awesome, nice and bland, 'safe') ... the MONEY. I mean, seriously, as far as I'm concerned, the whole reason I PAY for my food, is so I don't HAVE to look at it as a once-living, probably mistreated life form. It's been fantastically processed, from Cow to slaughtered cow, to butchered cow to cooked cow to plated cow to my mouth. It's worth the 12 bucks, if its a decent cut... good flavor, prepared well... etc.

Now, you stated your problem was with "The mass global industrialization of the meat industry."

I am technically a part of that problem, you may see me as a victim of this problem, I see myself as perpetuating this problem.

However, it's not -really- a problem, is it? I mean... what else are these cows/pigs/chickens good for? They're bred to be our food. Ghastly, sure. But "I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat a F'ing salad" as the saying goes. And I support this model wholeheartedly. It'd be very different if we were slaughtering wild animals. Like we did in an effort to starve the Native Americans. The Bison fiasco... yeah that was just plain wrong. But today, hell we could even try not farming meat and instead relying solely on what's available in the wild. It'd be gone inside a week! What then? Become vegetarians? Meh, if we're to recall your "all life is equal" blurb that doesn't work either. In fact it just goes to prove that there's no difference between farming cattle as there is farming corn.

Is there? I mean, ok yeah a cow goes Mooo, it makes noise. It bleeds when slaughtered. It's fed bovine growth hormone. Chickens, they're fed ground up left over unusable chicken parts! Mmmm, chickens fed on chickens. Niiiice. So effective, SO efficient.

"We're no longer born... we're grown."

mwahaha anyway, as entertaining as this has been I'll wrap it up with this:

If what we were doing was so wrong, the cows would have revolted by now. Obviously, it's in our nature to harvest our food. The hunt hasn't been removed by any means. It's just taken a new form. We still gather, we still save up meat for a rainy day and have invented indoor cooking methods for just that occasion. I thank the USDA for approving current day farming techniques. At least I can count on my meat not carrying prions or other infectious or harmful matter.

 

[Ajna]

...
Well there's one BIG reason why -I- don't cry when I eat a steak, or a burger, a chicken nugget, or a wal-mart bag-o-tilapia (farmed fish is awesome, nice and bland, 'safe') ... the MONEY. I mean, seriously, as far as I'm concerned, the whole reason I PAY for my food, is so I don't HAVE to look at it as a once-living, probably mistreated life form. It's been fantastically processed, from Cow to slaughtered cow, to butchered cow to cooked cow to plated cow to my mouth. It's worth the 12 bucks, if its a decent cut... good flavor, prepared well... etc.

So your justification for doing something that you admit under a microscope is questionable or as you put it "ghastly", is that your paying MONEY?
What is it about your money that negates the need for a moral decision?
All money is, is monetary status in society. You are equating a large enough sum of this status to equal or greater to the value of enslavement of an entire species or three so you can have a yummy meal when you want one?

Instead of offering you a metaphor, ill simply ask... What other of your moral decisions can be bought and sold?

However, it's not -really- a problem, is it? I mean... what else are these cows/pigs/chickens good for? They're bred to be our food.

ok... the statement "what else are they good for" is the most heavily slanted humanist response i could have imagined to this post. Very disappointing from a person of your intellect.
Your essentially saying that if a creature has no "use" for the human race that we might as well throw the entire species into a cage and treat them like inanimate objects?
What if we applied this logic on a smaller scale?
We can replace humans with me, and chickens/cows/pigs with you.
While you clearly have many beautiful and unique qualities that are individual to you and only you... what is your use to me?
How are you improving my life?
Well what the hell are you good for then? your not helping ME out in anyway?
Is it ok to make you and your family my slave? breed your children to be eaten by my family?

The chicken/cows/pigs of the world etc. are alive in a different way than you and I. It is harder for us to relate with their perspective because it is not similar to our own.. not to mention if we don't take the time to consider their perspective its much easier to just sit and enjoy your tasty steak.
This is not unlike a slave master doing his best not to consider the feelings of his slaves outside in his fields and cleaning his house... "because this corn taste yummy and my bathroom is clean every morning!"

But "I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat a F'ing salad" as the saying goes. And I support this model wholeheartedly.

You clawed your way to the top of the food chain?
Or were you just born into a society where you can stare at a TV all day and get fat on chicken nuggets as long as your willing to be a cashier at walmart?

Ide love to hear about your epic struggle to the top of the food chain. or even your last casual stroll through the woods?

If what we were doing was so wrong, the cows would have revolted by now.

Do I really need to humor you with a refute to this?
I think just quoting it by itself is a potent enough counter argument.

Obviously, it's in our nature to harvest our food. The hunt hasn't been removed by any means. It's just taken a new form. We still gather, we still save up meat for a rainy day and have invented indoor cooking methods for just that occasion. I thank the USDA for approving current day farming techniques. At least I can count on my meat not carrying prions or other infectious or harmful matter.

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_pop_totl&tdim=true&dl=en&hl=en&q=world+population
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation

 

[Sucumbio]

So your justification for doing something that you admit under a microscope is questionable or as you put it "ghastly", is that your paying MONEY?
What is it about your money that negates the need for a moral decision?
All money is, is monetary status in society. You are equating a large enough sum of this status to equal or greater to the value of enslavement of an entire species or three so you can have a yummy meal when you want one?

Absolutely. -my- money = my time spent, my hard earned money is an exchange for a Farmer's hard time spent. Remember, I don't fault humans for farming food. I don't see a difference between farming cattle or corn. They're both so that I may feast. The money is for the processing, for the detachment. I pay to be blinded to it. If I wanted to eat in the next room to a slaughterhouse so I can smell the blood, hear the cries, I would, and I'm sure it'd cost a mere fraction of an Outback Steakhouse steak. I'd rather spend the money. As I said, I didn't metaphorically and historically claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat a salad. And I definitely didn't get born into a 1st class society (America) and to an upper middle-class family to eat **** on a shingle. I want my T-bone. Medium, please.

Instead of offering you a metaphor, ill simply ask... What other of your moral decisions can be bought and sold?

Most of them, actually. Morals are like cheap commodities. They change with the times, and for convenience sake.

ok... the statement "what else are they good for" is the most heavily slanted humanist response i could have imagined to this post. Very disappointing from a person of your intellect.
Your essentially saying that if a creature has no "use" for the human race that we might as well throw the entire species into a cage and treat them like inanimate objects?

uh... no. what else are FARM-RAISED-ANIMALS good for. Just re-read the context of what I said. My point was that they serve no point other than to be our food, because they were purposefully bred for that purpose. We don't go around caging wild animals for slaughter. We do however breed animals for mass consumption. Again, yes it's a ghastly concept, no doubt. Makes for great science fiction, revenge of the cows or some other thing... but it's a necessary reality, and one I'm happy we enjoy, cause gosh darn it I love me some steak.

What if we applied this logic on a smaller scale?

Let me stop you right there. You -can't- shrink the scale of this logic. This logic ONLY applies to the mass marketing of purposefully farmed meat and its necessary consumption.

We can replace humans with me, and chickens/cows/pigs with you.
While you clearly have many beautiful and unique qualities that are individual to you and only you... what is your use to me?
How are you improving my life?
Well what the hell are you good for then? your not helping ME out in anyway?
Is it ok to make you and your family my slave? breed your children to be eaten by my family?

See? All that's moot. Purposefully farm raised food serves no other purpose, by definition, than to be eaten. I didn't grow you, you didn't grow me, so no, I'd not allow you to enslave me, or me you.

The chicken/cows/pigs of the world etc. are alive in a different way than you and I. It is harder for us to relate with their perspective because it is not similar to our own.. not to mention if we don't take the time to consider their perspective its much easier to just sit and enjoy your tasty steak.

The chickens/cows/pigs of the world are not the same as the Farm-raised chickens/cows/pigs of the world, and as you can see I've had to make this distinction for you right from the beginning of my rebuttal, and from your quote of me. In essence you really need to first wrap yourself around this and refute this concept of farm-raised != wild, before continuing because it's indeed at the heart of -my- argument.

As such, there's no animal perspective to be had. You honestly want me to consider what it's like to be born to be someone's food? Ghastly! I've said it. I still enjoy steak :D Because the only difference in my mind between the way we do it now, and the way we may do it in the future, is we -have- to breed live animals. Maybe, eventually we can replicate fresh meat like in star trek. until then, I'll just have to live with it. Trust me, ain't that hard, lol. Now I WILL say that if something changes, if somehow its proven that these animals that are being bred into captivity to be my food ARE sentient to the point that they object to this treatment, then yeah, I'll stop. And now you see why I make the supposition that morals are like commodities. See? I'll change, if it suits me to change. Because obviously I couldn't rest at night knowing the steak I ate could have been a doctor, or something, extreme case but that's the point. Farm animals will have to revolt en mass for me to accept that our treatment of them is indeed mis-treatment.

This is not unlike a slave master doing his best not to consider the feelings of his slaves outside in his fields and cleaning his house... "because this corn taste yummy and my bathroom is clean every morning!"

Terrible analogy. Slave masters in the 1800's HONESTLY believed that their slaves HAD NO SOULS, that THEY WEREN'T HUMAN. -source

You clawed your way to the top of the food chain?
Or were you just born into a society where you can stare at a TV all day and get fat on chicken nuggets as long as your willing to be a cashier at walmart?

Ide love to hear about your epic struggle to the top of the food chain. or even your last casual stroll through the woods?

Sarcastic much? I used quotes, and quantified what I was saying to make its point. Humans, did indeed, fend their way to the top of the food chain. We did not do this, to go backwards and become sole vegetarians. And I will not speak to "what's better" meat eater or veggie eater. To each their own.

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_pop_totl&tdim=true&dl=en&hl=en&q=world+population
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation

I'm not sure what your point was in showing me these? One shows our population to be approx 6.6 billion, the other is a wiki on "overpopulation' ... what was your point? OH you were helping MY argument. Thanks! That's right, INDEED we have a growth issue, and its thanks to farm-raised food we can sustain ourselves. If we were to rely on wild animals we'd surely lose a lot of population due to starvation. Unless you're saying that'd be a good thing? Wait, now... whose morals need checking? You'd rather humans die, so that "innocent" farm animals could avoid slaughter and mistreatment? Animals > Humans? I thought we were all the same...

Lunch time.

 

[ArcPoint]

Ajna, it seems like you have a point in that most people would gladly have a chicken nugget, which is a product of some of the questionable practices in the meat industry, but people would not so gladly go to the slaughterhouse themselves and either A) Get their chicken nugget themselves or B) Watch people get their chicken nugget for them.

That is a little troubling, because it seems almost contradictory to enjoy the benefits of a horrible practice and then disapprove of the practice entirely.

That said, I have no problem eating a juicy steak. I also have no problem with the idea of farming animals, however some of the practices should be a little toned down for decency. For example, I've seen animals just being hung by their leg, their throat cut to let the blood out WHILE they're conscious. I would advocate for at least hitting their head with a baton to knock them out before you go and cut their throat.

Farmed animals wouldn't be doing much even if they were let free...they would eat, sleep, make babies (Assuming they're healthy farmed animals, and they can walk and otherwise function). That's about it, they're not going to figure out how to make better ways of transporting themselves and their fellow cows/pigs/chickens, or figure out how to get better mental stimulation out of life, or make magnificent art, or make the next treaty that greatly improves foreign relations between cows and humans. To me, they're dumb animals, should they be saved from being farmed in the meat industry? I don't think so. Should the practices be at least a touch more humane within the meat industry? Yeah, I'll agree to that. I'm willing to pay the extra cent per burger for the effort it took to make the cow unconscious before it was killed.