Social The mayor of smashville: Villager discussion

Darklink401

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#84
Let me break down why I feel Villager will inevitably be at LEAST bottom of high tier in this game.

Problems he had in Smash 4:
Obscene landing lag on fair/bair made fighting against smaller characters a chore (but, any character really)
DLC
Swords that contested his range (or moves in general that did so, but this goes into the DLC bit)
Shield


So what he gets is:
Lower landing lag on ALL aerials (now fair/bair were reduced around 10 frames each)
MORE range on fair/bair, to be able to space out even the swordiest of swordies at a safer range
DLC was nerfed (outside Mewtwo)
His grab got buffed (and others nerfed) to the point his grab is only around 5-10 more frames of lag from the regular grabs
Bowling ball reportedly is safe on shield now (like actually), idk if they made it so projectile shieldstun is the same formula, or they just altered it to make it a similar amount) but this is pretty big.

Also ALL turnips spike. This makes our great edgeguarding game, which was already good to begin with, WAY more consistent, and in a game with lower ledge magnets this is HUGE.

Now, turnips did get slower in Dair, but an 8-frame move that always spiked would be busted. Now it comes out slower, but it's still one of the fastest spikes.
 

MERPIS

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#85
The best part of the direct was villager’s fighting stance while standing behind the stupid furry with a belt
 
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MERPIS

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#87
Pour one out for my boy, spent his last moment panicking ;_;
They can't kill off Kirby even if they tried.
Also piranha plant single handedly saved the direct from the fires of hell
 

MERPIS

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#89
Let me break down why I feel Villager will inevitably be at LEAST bottom of high tier in this game.

Problems he had in Smash 4:
Obscene landing lag on fair/bair made fighting against smaller characters a chore (but, any character really)
DLC
Swords that contested his range (or moves in general that did so, but this goes into the DLC bit)
Shield


So what he gets is:
Lower landing lag on ALL aerials (now fair/bair were reduced around 10 frames each)
MORE range on fair/bair, to be able to space out even the swordiest of swordies at a safer range
DLC was nerfed (outside Mewtwo)
His grab got buffed (and others nerfed) to the point his grab is only around 5-10 more frames of lag from the regular grabs
Bowling ball reportedly is safe on shield now (like actually), idk if they made it so projectile shieldstun is the same formula, or they just altered it to make it a similar amount) but this is pretty big.

Also ALL turnips spike. This makes our great edgeguarding game, which was already good to begin with, WAY more consistent, and in a game with lower ledge magnets this is HUGE.

Now, turnips did get slower in Dair, but an 8-frame move that always spiked would be busted. Now it comes out slower, but it's still one of the fastest spikes.
Stop I'm about to have an anxiety attack over this all.
 

MERPIS

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#92
Ey boys where do we think villager could be in the tier lists, in the meta? I think the highest he could go is top 15 he looks actually ridiculously hard to deal with. Worst case scenario he's at the bottom of B
 

Darklink401

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#93
Top players are seeing him as high potential or good potential, and from the changes he's gotten, I can't see him being below top 20. So like, def high tier, idk where he will go, anywhere from low high tier to like top of high tier tbh. IDK if I'd say he could be top tier, with how amazing some characters look in this game. Zoning will be good but we'll have to watch out, with characters with crazy speeds, they will probably zonebreak really well, so we need to use our buffed OoS options like nair and axe (due to jumpsquat change) as well as lloid to keep them out.

That's my theory tho, we'll have to see how it develops. He may have similar problems as in Ultimate, but my guess is they won't be nearly as pronounced.
 

MERPIS

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#94
Top players are seeing him as high potential or good potential, and from the changes he's gotten, I can't see him being below top 20. So like, def high tier, idk where he will go, anywhere from low high tier to like top of high tier tbh. IDK if I'd say he could be top tier, with how amazing some characters look in this game. Zoning will be good but we'll have to watch out, with characters with crazy speeds, they will probably zonebreak really well, so we need to use our buffed OoS options like nair and axe (due to jumpsquat change) as well as lloid to keep them out.

That's my theory tho, we'll have to see how it develops. He may have similar problems as in Ultimate, but my guess is they won't be nearly as pronounced.
Do you have any footage of buffed nair or bowling ball?
 

SaiyanFGC

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#96
Hey guys, new member here. Been a Villager main since Smash 4, going to start streaming him while I train for tournaments. But that isn't why I'm here.

I'm putting together a bible of sorts where I have all the information needed for Villager;
  • Detailed list of his moves w/ frame data (once the game comes out).
  • Reasons why he should be picked up
  • My thoughts on Villager
  • Bread and Butter moves
  • Match Up thoughts
I've begun working on it with some introductions and basic info and I was wondering if this was something people would be interested in.

I can't seem to see a discord for Villager mains so that is something I could make if needed but if someone has a link then can I get one for that, please. :ultvillager:

Other than that, I hope everyone is as excited for the game as I am and I'll see you on the Battlefield!
 

MERPIS

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#97
Hey guys, new member here. Been a Villager main since Smash 4, going to start streaming him while I train for tournaments. But that isn't why I'm here.

I'm putting together a bible of sorts where I have all the information needed for Villager;
  • Detailed list of his moves w/ frame data (once the game comes out).
  • Reasons why he should be picked up
  • My thoughts on Villager
  • Bread and Butter moves
  • Match Up thoughts
I've begun working on it with some introductions and basic info and I was wondering if this was something people would be interested in.

I can't seem to see a discord for Villager mains so that is something I could make if needed but if someone has a link then can I get one for that, please. :ultvillager:

Other than that, I hope everyone is as excited for the game as I am and I'll see you on the Battlefield!
OH SO MUCH YES
Good lord I wanna be part of this so damn bad
 

SaiyanFGC

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#98
OH SO MUCH YES
Good lord I wanna be part of this so damn bad
I'm happy to make it a community type thing where anyone can add suggestions. Once I get my Twitch up and running I'll be doing a 3 hour Villager Practice session while editing the Bible so just wait for me to get the document uploaded haha :4villager:
 

MERPIS

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#99
I'm happy to make it a community type thing where anyone can add suggestions. Once I get my Twitch up and running I'll be doing a 3 hour Villager Practice session while editing the Bible so just wait for me to get the document uploaded haha :4villager:
Alrighty
 

SaiyanFGC

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Hey guys so the other day I said I was creating a guide of sorts for Villager, I have made a draft with more to do once the game comes out so here you go. Any suggestions would be appreciated as this is to help the community in any way I can.
 

MERPIS

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Hey guys so the other day I said I was creating a guide of sorts for Villager, I have made a draft with more to do once the game comes out so here you go. Any suggestions would be appreciated as this is to help the community in any way I can.
I added some changes
 

Mark The Page

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Hello, I'm back at Smashboards now. After basically achieving zen with the Villager in Smash 4, Ultimate's been a huge letdown. Almost every one of his moves has been nerfed for this game, and the general mechanics haven't been kind to him either. He's lost almost all of his combos and his near-infinite array of frame-trapping shenanigans, and without those, there's little point to his character.

Losing his jab stings harder than anything else, honestly. Sure there are almost no more jab combos across the entire cast, but Villager's range was also severely nerfed and his new jab infinite has probably the lowest damage output in the game, along with a weak finisher. Shorter grab, and down throw can only combo into f-air, and often only the pellet will connect. No follow-ups. The bowling ball has lost its anti-air effect. The axe is much slower.

Because launch speeds have been accelerated, it's now much harder to catch opponents mid-launch to follow up combos, which means capitalizing on gyroid hits won't always be possible. And when you can, the gains have been seriously minimized. Villager's main damage output is almost gone.

It's a rough transition. I don't see Villager crawling past the lower tiers like this. The strategies and mechanics that made him a terror in Smash 4 just don't exist anymore.
 

MERPIS

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Hello, I'm back at Smashboards now. After basically achieving zen with the Villager in Smash 4, Ultimate's been a huge letdown. Almost every one of his moves has been nerfed for this game, and the general mechanics haven't been kind to him either. He's lost almost all of his combos and his near-infinite array of frame-trapping shenanigans, and without those, there's little point to his character.

Losing his jab stings harder than anything else, honestly. Sure there are almost no more jab combos across the entire cast, but Villager's range was also severely nerfed and his new jab infinite has probably the lowest damage output in the game, along with a weak finisher. Shorter grab, and down throw can only combo into f-air, and often only the pellet will connect. No follow-ups. The bowling ball has lost its anti-air effect. The axe is much slower.

Because launch speeds have been accelerated, it's now much harder to catch opponents mid-launch to follow up combos, which means capitalizing on gyroid hits won't always be possible. And when you can, the gains have been seriously minimized. Villager's main damage output is almost gone.

It's a rough transition. I don't see Villager crawling past the lower tiers like this. The strategies and mechanics that made him a terror in Smash 4 just don't exist anymore.
He just feels so bad to play too, he lost any sense of flow he feels too slippery to play, like I just keep missing my stuff. Which is why I moved to Olimar. Hopefully villager gets buffed somehow but for now he's just so frigging hard to use
 

Mark The Page

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Anyone else been training? Villager's got one of the deadest discussion boards in the whole roster, but I'll chat away.

I stand by everything I've said before about his nerfs. I have to bust my *** to get 30 damage, while my other two mains (Fit and Palutena) get that much in a single safe move. Villager forces me to work so much harder for everything. Up smash now launches at an angle which makes up-air chains impossible above low percents. Gyroid's base knockback has been increased which brings its previously-limitless combo potential down to almost nothing but slingshot pellets.

His frame-trapping strategies are gone and almost all of his combo potential is gone, but at the very least his improved mobility has made his poking game stronger. Unfortunately that's also the easiest of his playstyles to body all day long if your opponent is familiar with him.

In terms of advanced techs, Villager's pivot cancel has very little momentum to it. There's also a dash attack cancel technique which could let us fire out b-airs at a full-speed retreat, but again, I doubt it'll make a significant difference. It's tricky enough to perform as is, but for that aerial to reliably connect with grounded opponents, you'd have to additionally perform a fast-fall with good timing before inputting the attack. At that point, you are just performing a ridiculous number of inputs just to add a little bit of retreating air momentum to one attack, and you're also getting much less use out of that momentum since you aren't firing off your attack immediately anyway. Not worth all the effort plus the risk of messing up an input.
 

Mark The Page

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More to report: Pocketing an item no longer resets it. This means that if you Pocket a timed explosive (from Toon Link, Young Link, Snake, or Bowser Jr), its timer will not be reset. Pocket a bomb just before it explodes, and it's going to explode before you can even throw it back.

I am not prepared to say that Bayonetta was nerfed worse than Villager.
 

Mark The Page

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Same for a Gyroid?
Nope. Looks like Gyroids must be programmed differently. Gyroid timers do not reset after being reflected, but they will reset after being Pocketed.

This hasn't changed, which is good news for us. It's still easy to bait reflectors into giving you two simultaneous Gyroids, and it's still difficult for a reflected Gyroid to hit you if you're not immediately behind it.
 

yata9arasu

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Nope. Looks like Gyroids must be programmed differently. Gyroid timers do not reset after being reflected, but they will reset after being Pocketed.

This hasn't changed, which is good news for us. It's still easy to bait reflectors into giving you two simultaneous Gyroids, and it's still difficult for a reflected Gyroid to hit you if you're not immediately behind it.
I agree with everything you've said. As a villager main in Smash 4 I'm finding it really difficult to deal with all of the minor nerfs villager got. The biggest issue that you brought up and the one I feared the most when I saw the engine was the accelerated knockback. You can't follow up on anything because he is still so very slow. Even being aggressive with edge guarding hasn't helped much. Everything kills later. More lag on dair, tree coming up doesn't kill like it used to, everyone survives longer because the moves are doing less and no way to confirm into axe. Villager had one of the best jabs and they changed it. Pointless nerf to his recovery, while giving Inkling the best one in the game easily. Uptilt is a dead move because it doesn't hit where it used to and it doesn't kill even when fresh. As someone that competed with him and did well in my region this is just beyond painful. Hopefully I can find some tech and get him somewhere, but overall it is just so much work for barely any reward.

There will probably be adjustments to his damage output in the future which could make him viable enough. We'll see. Thank you guys for your posts. I've been following these forums for a long time and have been disappointed with the lack of posts for villager since the game has come out. At least Samus looks decent so far. XD
 

yata9arasu

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yata9arasu yata9arasu sounds like the """Balance""" Team were a bunch of morons.
Unfortunately I have no other way to put it. : / I've noticed it with a bunch of characters. Some just got ridiculous nerfs when all they needed were small adjustments, and others got massive buffs making them ridiculous. haha I don't know really know what the game plan was with all of these adjustments. Maybe they'll make up for it in the future, but I won't hold my breath.
 

Mark The Page

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As someone that competed with him and did well in my region this is just beyond painful. Hopefully I can find some tech and get him somewhere, but overall it is just so much work for barely any reward.
I don't think there's going to be any tech discovered for Villager. His high skill ceiling only comes from tactical mastery--the most complex inputs he's ever had are shorthop fastfalling slingshots.

The only rewarding combo left is to predict that a gyroid is going to hit the opponent, then run past the scene to catch them in [up-smash -> up-air]. Do they want us to play Villager as a combo fighter with no combos? Or is he a bruiser with no range and just one bad finisher?

I honestly feel like Villager was gutted so that Isabelle could be better. It's very telling that her combo and spacing games are leagues better even without a horizontal Lloid Rocket. The only matchups Villager improves are against slower projectile spammers they'd both defeat anyway. It's the same as what they did to Roy--he lost almost all of his combos, while Chrom gets to keep many.

Bonus: Yesterday I got Daisy to drop a turnip. I grabbed it with Pocket. But when I took it back out, due to timers no longer being reset, it despawned mid-throw before it even reached her.
 

yata9arasu

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I don't think there's going to be any tech discovered for Villager. His high skill ceiling only comes from tactical mastery--the most complex inputs he's ever had are shorthop fastfalling slingshots.

The only rewarding combo left is to predict that a gyroid is going to hit the opponent, then run past the scene to catch them in [up-smash -> up-air]. Do they want us to play Villager as a combo fighter with no combos? Or is he a bruiser with no range and just one bad finisher?

I honestly feel like Villager was gutted so that Isabelle could be better. It's very telling that her combo and spacing games are leagues better even without a horizontal Lloid Rocket. The only matchups Villager improves are against slower projectile spammers they'd both defeat anyway. It's the same as what they did to Roy--he lost almost all of his combos, while Chrom gets to keep many.

Bonus: Yesterday I got Daisy to drop a turnip. I grabbed it with Pocket. But when I took it back out, due to timers no longer being reset, it despawned mid-throw before it even reached her.

Very true. He feels exactly the same tech wise but just worse overall to play. Barely anything came out for over a year near the end of smash 4 except maybe that ridiculous "lock" he had with wood chip or the dsmash lock.

Excellent point about Villager vs Isabelle. Trying to look into her at this point. While I was playing Roy yesterday (and a little bit of Marth), I thought to myself, "why am I playing with these characters when Chrom is just a better version". I had to make many more reads just to win those matches, while Chrom was at times coasting with his tools. Extremely frustrating. Why was this at all necessary? Couldn't have Isabelle been her own thing without having to hit villager to make her artificially better? : /

(facepalms hard at the reset timers)
 
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Mark The Page

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Very true. He feels exactly the same tech wise but just worse overall to play. Barely anything came out for over a year near the end of smash 4 except maybe that ridiculous "lock" he had with wood chip or the dsmash lock.

Excellent point about Villager vs Isabelle. Trying to look into her at this point. While I was playing Roy yesterday (and a little bit of Marth), I thought to myself, "why am I playing with these characters when Chrom is just a better version". I had to make many more reads just to win those matches, while Chrom was at times coasting with his tools. Extremely frustrating. Why was this at all necessary? Couldn't have Isabelle been her own thing without having to hit villager to make her artificially better? : /

(facepalms hard at the reset timers)
I truly believe that Ultimate's roster was rigged for Sakurai's biases and for marketing purposes--especially when I look at Inkling. Simon and King were also clearly designed to be top tier threats, and Melee's best fighters are all intact. Anyway...

Villager's combos were all given to Isabelle. If you want to know every difference between the two, just look at their up-tilts. Isabelle's is vastly superior in EVERY way. Down smash is also nuts because it covers both sides on the ground instantly, something Villager could never do. She's basically Smash 4 Villager, except instead of a Lloid Rocket you have the custom tripping sapling. She's MUCH simpler, and deals far more damage, and packs more consistent killing moves. Ironically she's also got an improved close-range game, so she won't get bodied by fast opponents.

Honestly, Isabelle is superior in literally every way except that Villager's gyroid can block projectiles.

Bonus: Just found the use for Villager's new jab--if you use it while either character is on the edge of a platform, you won't get pushed back as quickly, and you can rack up 20 damage. Very situational, but at least it's something, though I think this position works for anyone's jab infinite.
 

Reila

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This place is quite dead :( There isn't even a videos thread for Villager. Well, I will just leave the video I wanted to share here;


But yeah, we need a videos thread, maybe a potential combos and tricks thread, too. I am not a very good player so I won't be the one making it...
 
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