Q&A The 'Mains' Advice Thread

[KniteBlargh]

@Simperheve Sure, Pikachu can play aggressively, especially if you focus on getting the most out of quick attack. Some general advice: Be sure to know which aerials auto-cancel out of short hop and which don't, because his landing lag can really mess up a game if not kept in check, watch that you don't use his projectile too close to your opponent as it leaves Pikachu somewhat helpless, and take advantage of his various ledge-guarding options (Pikachu excels at this, but requires precision).

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Is aggressive but he plays a hit and run game. You make them approach with thunder jolt and quick attack and catch them in down throw, forward throw, and tilt combos. And once you've gotten what you can you rinse and repeat. He is aggressive overall but you can't rush in like a maniac. The hyper aggressive characters are and can be played somewhat like that. Along with . Also plays like Pikachu. Just without projectiles.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

@Simperheve Yes. You can play . There's not enough of him out there, and he does boast a hyper-aggressive style. I'd say the best alternate choice would be either or if that doesn't work out for you.
@ that guy who likes Ice Climbers: I think and are the closest thing to old Ice Climbers. They each have a semi-puppet style (Olimar with the Pikmin Throw and Bayo with Bullet Arts), get a lot of damage off of grabs (but no insta-KOs), and can be limited by losing a key move (Olimar when out of Pikmin, Bayo when Witch Time misses).

 

[54BR3 WU1F]

I kinda understand but a bit confused still. The ones I listed at the bottom are the bad/ even matchups that I want to get a secondary or 2 for. So which 2 out of cover those matchups I've listed before?

I believe that you're better off using Roy and maybe Toon Link out of those 4 to use against the matchups you talked about earlier. I think for those matchups because I believe that that will help you out.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I believe that you're better off using Roy and maybe Toon Link out of those 4 to use against the matchups you talked about earlier. I think for those matchups because I believe that that will help you out.

What about ? I forgot to mention them earlier.

 

[54BR3 WU1F]

What about ? I forgot to mention them earlier.

Well. I know from experience that is pretty annoying to use because you can only KO at high percentages because the first smash attack will kill at around 110% which can be pretty annoying in my book. Also, this is just me, but it really annoys me when he talks because his voice in Smash 4 is just weird. Instead, I'd use because he's stronger and still fast too. You've just gotta learn how to short hop because his air game is a lot better than his neutral game, although his smash attacks are a lot stronger because they kill at lower(ish) percents.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Well. I know from experience that is pretty annoying to use because you can only KO at high percentages because the first smash attack will kill at around 110% which can be pretty annoying in my book. Also, this is just me, but it really annoys me when he talks because his voice in Smash 4 is just weird.

I switched him with Diddy. Nvm about diddy. Nvm about any of them I'll stick with and try .

 

[54BR3 WU1F]

I switched him with Diddy. Nvm about diddy. Nvm about any of them I'll stick with and try .

Sounds good. Falco is amazing at edge guarding as long as they're in the air, his forward B (phantasm) and his down Air can both spike if they hit off stage. But watch out with phantasm because you've gotta hold down while you use it off stage or at the ledge to spike.

 

[MrSmallDONGHasABigDONG]

I've recently taken a liking to little mac but I realized he is kinda lack luster. Are there any better characters that are sorta like him?

 

[Ecchin]

Tell me characters that can make mixups but mostly play with a, defensive read n punish style (obviously have spacing/zoning tools)

Also im trying to get a friend of mine into the competitive scene: so what characters are easy to pick up? I told him about and but he hates the plumber and doesnt have DLCs, maybe he will start to play with but i feel he's a technical based character and idk

 

[54BR3 WU1F]

Tell me characters that can make mixups but mostly play with a, defensive read n punish style (obviously have spacing/zoning tools)

Also im trying to get a friend of mine into the competitive scene: so what characters are easy to pick up? I told him about and but he hates the plumber and doesnt have DLCs, maybe he will start to play with but i feel he's a technical based character and idk

I think that and are pretty easy to play as read and punish characters since you can easily roll and grab and such because well, they're some of the fastest characters in the game. Falco's down smash comes out quick and can easily punish a roll. Also, Falco's jab actually makes him move forward as he does it. Fox is basically Falco but he's a lot faster, his shine is stationary, his lasers don't do as much stun damage, and he has better recovery as Falco, but I find him to be too fast of a character to actually use well, also his voice is trash in smash 4. So, I'd suggest Falco because he's decently easy to learn but if you try learning a new character, you'll most likely be too used to using forward B (phantasm) as a recovery from off stage and end up trying that with other characters which is a really bad habit and I'm accountable for that. I think you should tell them to play since he's a pretty good character but he's pretty bad against super heavyweights like unless if you know what you're doing and if you know how to counter his attacks.

 

[54BR3 WU1F]

I've recently taken a liking to little mac but I realized he is kinda lack luster. Are there any better characters that are sorta like him?

I think that either one of the swordsmen from Fire Emblem or Cloud might be a good pick because you still have the power and quite a bit of speed on them too. Plus their recoveries are a LOT better than Mac's

 

[C0rvus]

Tell me characters that can make mixups but mostly play with a, defensive read n punish style (obviously have spacing/zoning tools)

Also im trying to get a friend of mine into the competitive scene: so what characters are easy to pick up? I told him about and but he hates the plumber and doesnt have DLCs, maybe he will start to play with but i feel he's a technical based character and idk

Captain Falcon is very straightforward and fun to play, his dash grab and general speed and power definitely lend themselves to a defensive bait and punish style. Less of a zoner, more of a zone breaker though. His neutral revolves around movement, and mixing up his opponent between safely spaced aerial approaches and dash grabs, so he can get a taste of simple conditioning. Falcon thrives off of reads and reactionary punishment of defensive options, so definitely check him out.

If you want more of a mix-up based zoner, Lucas would be a pretty good fit, but he is a DLC character, so that's probably out. Hmmmm... If Toon Link is too technical, maybe try Villager? He's a bit unorthodox but he's a strong zoner with a couple key moves that reward hard reads (Bowling ball and Tree). So maybe check him out. His neutral tends to involve mixing up the opponent with different Lloyd timings and chasers, so there's also that.

Edit: A just realized that I blended both of your questions together. Whoops lol.
Lucas for you, Falcon or Villager for your friend. In your case, Villager could work as well.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Tell me characters that can make mixups but mostly play with a, defensive read n punish style (obviously have spacing/zoning tools)

Also im trying to get a friend of mine into the competitive scene: so what characters are easy to pick up? I told him about and but he hates the plumber and doesnt have DLCs, maybe he will start to play with but i feel he's a technical based character and idk

For you and for your friend

 

[Ecchin]

For you and for your friend

Maybe i'll pick up and pocket , i feel those two covers bad MUs themselves

i don't think is an easy character to play...

 

[KniteBlargh]

Ecchin Yeah, not sure why some think is easy in this game; he was a lot easier for people to pick up in Brawl for obvious reasons. Regardless, I've found he's not a good character for beginners. And no offense to Nice, but I wouldn't recommend either as his recovery options can be very frustrating to new players, and he requires quite a bit of tech skill since his pre-patch days.

Based on experience, and avoiding repeating previous suggestions from everyone else, I'd say some other characters who are easy for beginners to pick up (but in some of these cases very difficult to master) are , , , , , , , and . So, there are quite a bit to choose from! Hope your friend finds the one he likes best!

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I keep hearing possible secondaries but don't seem to hear who I should pick? I've got In consideration for my 's secondary. Any help narrowing down atleast? I'm looking to get 2 secondaries. Please help.

 

[54BR3 WU1F]

I keep hearing possible secondaries but don't seem to hear who I should pick? I've got In consideration for my 's secondary. Any help narrowing down atleast? I'm looking to get 2 secondaries. Please help.

I think I'd go Greninja if I were you because he's fast, strong, and has good recovery.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I think I'd go Greninja if I were you because he's fast, strong, and has good recovery.

But how is he as a secondary for pika?

 

[Green Zelda]

Although may help with 's harder match ups, he's got a pretty high learning curve, so he's not exactly a good pick for a secondary (unless you put a lot of time into him, I guess). According to eSAM, pika's loses 60:40 to and loses 45:55 to and , so I'd suggest and !

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Although may help with 's harder match ups, he's got a pretty high learning curve, so he's not exactly a good pick for a secondary (unless you put a lot of time into him, I guess). According to eSAM, pika's loses 60:40 to and loses 45:55 to and , so I'd suggest and !

Yeah that's what I thought with Greninja. Though I would put in a ton/ equal amount of time into all my characters. Also I know the matchups pika looses and goes even with () and so I need to beat them too. I think I'd be fine with doing a ditto. Do any of my characters beat Mario though? He's the guy to beat. Along with the others too. I just don't like 50/50 MUs so if I can get someone to beat them all I'd be very happy. I changing my mind on a phew and only considering now. (No longer )

 

[Green Zelda]

Yeah that's what I thought with Greninja. Though I would put in a ton/ equal amount of time into all my characters. Also I know the matchups pika looses and goes even with () and so I need to beat them too. I think I'd be fine with doing a ditto. Do any of my characters beat Mario though? He's the guy to beat. Along with the others too. I just don't like 50/50 MUs so if I can get someone to beat them all I'd be very happy. I changing my mind on a phew and only considering now. (No longer )

Out of , , , , , and , mario goes even/loses slightly to . Everyone else besides maaaaybe greninja (idk) loses.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Out of , , , , , and , mario goes even/loses slightly to . Everyone else besides maaaaybe greninja (idk) loses.

Ive actually heard anti said Roy goes even.so basically drop . I'll keep everyone else since I could ditto and still looking for 2

 

[Yugotmeth]

So I want a secondary for cloud but I don't know who to pick up. Any suggestions? I can list some MUs I tend to struggle in if needed.

 

[54BR3 WU1F]

So I want a secondary for cloud but I don't know who to pick up. Any suggestions? I can list some MUs I tend to struggle in if needed.

Well, if you really like then well, a similar character would be because quite a bit is similar to Cloud. But, it really depends on what kind of player you are: aggressive, hit and run, long distance, short distance, all around, fast, powerful, heavy, light. What are you looking for in a character?

 

[C0rvus]

So I want a secondary for cloud but I don't know who to pick up. Any suggestions? I can list some MUs I tend to struggle in if needed.

If you're looking for a secondary for a top tier character, then listing what characters you would like to cover would be great, because otherwise my answer is "you don't need one, figure it out with Cloud".

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

So I want a secondary for cloud but I don't know who to pick up. Any suggestions? I can list some MUs I tend to struggle in if needed.

Well cloud looses too and goes even with (imo) so someone who you could use is since he's easy to pick up. Otherwise could work out imo.

 

[Yugotmeth]

If you're looking for a secondary for a top tier character, then listing what characters you would like to cover would be great, because otherwise my answer is "you don't need one, figure it out with Cloud".

I struggle against Corrin, Bayo, Falcon, and Fox for the most part.

 

[54BR3 WU1F]

If you're looking for a secondary for a top tier character, then listing what characters you would like to cover would be great, because otherwise my answer is "you don't need one, figure it out with Cloud".

I agree with you because Cloud is already an amazing character and most of his mad matchups can be beaten with a good DI and knowing how to use him and his attacks wisely.

 

[54BR3 WU1F]

I struggle against Corrin, Bayo, Falcon, and Fox for the most part.

You just have to learn how to DI correctly and also, block and Dodge when needed. I've had a bit of trouble as a secondary against 2/4 of those characters. For Corrin, I usually block and Dodge against most of his attacks, Bayo can be beaten with correct DI and I find that using dtilt helps a lot when fighting her mains, Falcon, you've just gotta block and roll behind and then attack with forward b if you can since it sends him away from you, and Fox, don't use your projectile too much, know when an Illusion ( forward b) is coming since it has some starting lag, don't let his jab catch you too much and use Cloud's giant hit boxes to your advantage.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Beat them all. Play your bad matchups over and over again as cloud. That will help you.

 

[C0rvus]

I struggle against Corrin, Bayo, Falcon, and Fox for the most part.

Alright. Surprised you didn't say Sheik, as she is commonly cited as Cloud's only losing matchup that we are confident of. While you may be better off hitting up the Cloud Boards and asking in/reading their matchup thread, and figuring out the matchups, that seems to be what everyone is saying. I know that's not what you're looking for, so let my try and see what I think would be a proper pickup for your situation.

Diddy does seem to deal with the bulk of these characters, though I am unsure of how he does against Falcon and Fox. Marth goes even with all of them, more or less. He's also a sword character if you are looking for that. Let me just break down each character instead, because why not.

Corrin does decently against Cloud, he loses slightly imo. He's pretty easy to juggle and pressure if you know what to watch out for, and he's also pretty slow. Loses to Diddy, Fox, Mewtwo, Cloud, Toon Link (imo).

Bayonetta versus Cloud is kinda up in the air at the moment, but she has very very strong gimping tools and strong horizontal combos that back those up. Kills late outside of gimps and Witch Time reads, neutral is okay. Susceptible to getting lamed out. Loses to Diddy, Mega Man, Cloud, Mewtwo, Toon Link, Lucas, Ryu (this spread is very theorycrafty, not for sure.)

Falcon is a simple character with powerful tools and good mobility. Try not to air dodge much against him or you'll die at 60%. Free gimps on him, but he can also f you up offstage if you're not careful. Loses to Pikachu, Sheik, Mega Man? idk who else, has a lot of even MUs as far as I can tell.

Fox versus Cloud is pretty even at top level, but outside of it I can't say for sure. Fox is very good at pressure and he craps out damage when he gets in. Can't kill off of throws and is easy to gimp. Loses to Sheik, Ryu, Rosalina? Luigi, Marth, Kirby and Dr. Mario randomly do well against him too. He's a very polarizing character capable of getting blown up or destroying his opponent at any point in the match.

Not the most thorough assessment of each, but it gives you an idea. So my suggestions would be or maybe just pick a character that plays very differently from Cloud, that way you can change how you're approaching matchups or players. So someone like that's simple but operates differently from your main. For a different approach or learning tool.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

How well do (each of them) against ?

 

[C0rvus]

I'll try to tackle that question. Keep in mind I'm no expert on any of these guys.

: Advantage = , About Even =
: Advantage = , About Even =
: About Even = , Disadvantage =
: Advantage =, About Even =
: Advantage =, About Even =, Disadvantage =

Of these, Sonic beats the most, and his wins against Greninja, Kirby, and Ness are pretty strong ones. He's one of their worst matchups. He's also pretty tricky to play well. He probably beats Mario, but not sure how much that's true at mid-high level. He's also the only one here to do that. As a Pikachu player, maybe take a page out of ESAM's book and consider Corrin? He seems to be an ideal secondary for the mouse. That or DK, who also does well against Mario. Just my two cents~~~~

 

[Y2Kay]

slightly beats Mario, IMO.

Well spaced fairs, smart shuriken usage, and great ground mobility just really give a hard time. Combine this with Ally's shaky record against good greninja's (Amsa, Some, Darkaura), I believe there is enough data to suggest the MU is even at worst. I know Anti thinks Mario beats Greninja, but on ther other hand Ally thinks it is a bad match up for Mario and he's fought way more greninja's than Anti has.

Angbad thinks Gren beats Olimar as well.

 

[C0rvus]

There you go, \nobody should trust my judgement\ I fixed Mario.
My Greninja struggled with Mario, but I struggle with Mario in general, so there's some of my bias. Olimar I just assumed (also Angbad is too dour about Olimar, his spread is sus as ****. Wouldn't put too much stock into it tbh). My Peach placements are mostly wild guesses, so feel free to get a second opinion from the Peach boards.

I still have no idea who to play, myself. Even after loads of good advice, I still waver more than ever. Today I'm in the mood for Greninja, but when I play him he doesn't feel quite right. Also want to play Pac Man and Wario, but I know better. I'll likely work on a Cloud, and keep him as a backup character to support whatever random dude I'm playing on a whim on any given day.

 

[Y2Kay]

There you go, \nobody should trust my judgement\ I fixed Mario.
My Greninja struggled with Mario, but I struggle with Mario in general, so there's some of my bias. Olimar I just assumed (also Angbad is too dour about Olimar, his spread is sus as ****. Wouldn't put too much stock into it tbh). My Peach placements are mostly wild guesses, so feel free to get a second opinion from the Peach boards.

I still have no idea who to play, myself. Even after loads of good advice, I still waver more than ever. Today I'm in the mood for Greninja, but when I play him he doesn't feel quite right. Also want to play Pac Man and Wario, but I know better. I'll likely work on a Cloud, and keep him as a backup character to support whatever random dude I'm playing on a whim on any given day.

I can kinda see why he thought that though. I have fought only a few Olimars, but from my experience, water shurikens can intercept and even kill pikmin thrown by Olimar, and can just short hop Nair through pikmin throws and start up some devastating combos.

This is the only real high level footage we could work with.

what is about greninja that feels off to you? I'm curious.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

C0rvus who would you recommend then? ? I have considered before but just don't like him enough. Too slow. Also I have decided to keep as one of my secondaries cause I love him so much. With him I cover for sure and maybe others idk yet. So I'm just looking for one more out of .

 

[C0rvus]

I can kinda see why he thought that though. I have fought only a few Olimars, but from my experience, water shurikens can intercept and even kill pikmin thrown by Olimar, and can just short hop Nair through pikmin throws and start up some devastating combos.

This is the only real high level footage we could work with.

what is about greninja that feels off to you? I'm curious.

I'm not really sure. Maybe it's just his aerials' strangeness, or just how his moves in general have lag to them that I'm not used to. As a player I crutch a lot of my shield, and Greninja is bad out of shield, so that doesn't help. I realize he is somewhat unintuitive/hard to learn so maybe that's all it is. Not sure if I'm willing to commit to him. I do like him in theory and he needs more rep, but I'm not totally sold. I will likely continue exploring him when I'm in the mood; at the moment I am going to try to fill the gaps in my knowledge such as efficient killing methods and how to recover well.

Edit: Cumbersome would be a good word to describe Greninja.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I'm actually dropping since I'm so inconsistent with him. I've heard a lot about from friends and I'm consisten with him so I'll add him making it to support my .