The King of Evil Returns! Frame Data + Damage Changes

Almand

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 20, 2018
Messages
210
#1
I did this for Pac-Man, and since I mained Ganon in Melee, I thought I might as well try my luck with him!

For reference:
-All values may or may not be accurate, so take them with a grain of salt.
-All values are formatted by "Smash 4 -> Smash Ultimate."
-Frame Data is always in green, Damage in blue, any other relevant changes in purple.
-Frame Data begins when the first "whoosh" or "strike" effect appears, in the event that I can't find an instance of the move hitting on its first possible frame. I cannot reliably find data for ending frames (for most moves) or late hit frame data, since there is no way of knowing this for sure.
-All attacks' damage values reflect Base Damage. This can change due to staling (up to 0.5294x damage), Freshness (1.05x damage), or the itemless 1v1 buff (1.2x damage). For example, if you want to see how much a Down Tilt deals in an itemless 1v1, when you first use the move, you would take the base % (13%), and multiply it by 1.2 (itemless 1v1), then 1.05 (Fresh), for a total of 16.3%.
-Any attacks with sweet/sourspots keep those sweet/sourspots unless otherwise specified (Up Smash, for example, has completely different hitboxes, so I had to adjust the change from Smash 4 to Ultimate).
-All Smashes are uncharged, but damage likely increases by 1.4x when charged (we don't know if SSBU is different from Smash 4 in this regard).
-Any unknown values are represented by a red ?.
-Special Instances (usually a possible inconsistency) are marked with a yellow symbol, such as * or ^.
-If I have conflicting data, I choose the highest damage output. With Frame Data, however, I choose the most consistently-occuring value (If I see 6 times where Down Tilt comes out frame 10, but 2 times when it comes out frame 9, I'm choosing frame 10, for example).
-If you see any evidence proving my research false, please link me to the video showing it, and I will update this Master List with credit to you in orange. (Make sure all reference videos are in 60 FPS if you're dealing with Frame Data. For Damage, just make sure the percents are easily visible.)

Without further ado, here we go!

Normals:
Jab: Active 7-8 -> 7, FAF 29 -> 29. Damage (Body/Arm/Hand) 6%/8%/10% -> 10%.
Dash Attack: Active 10-12 -> 10, FAF 38 -> 38. Damage 14% (+1) -> 14%.
Dash Attack (Late): Active 13-19 -> ?, FAF 38 -> 38. Damage 10% -> ?%.
F-Tilt: Active 10-12 -> 10, FAF 40 -> 40. Damage (Foot/Leg/Body) 13%/12%/12% -> 12%/11%/11%.
Up Tilt: Active 81-84 -> 60, FAF 115 -> 96. Damage (Leg/Leg/Explosion Center/Explosion Edge) 28%/28%/20%/18% -> 20%/?%/24%/?%. No longer holds his leg up manually, and a flame appears on his foot during startup.
Down Tilt: Active 10-12 -> 10, FAF 36 -> 36. Damage 13% -> 13%.

Smashes:
F-Smash: Active 21-26 -> 29, FAF 60 -> 70. Damage 24% -> (Tip/Base) 25%/20%. Sword glows yellow on frame 28 (When he's beginning to swing it down), but the earliest I've seen it hit is frame 29. Sword hits the ground on frame 30.
Up Smash: Active 21-23 -> 20, FAF 42 -> ?. Damage (Foot/Leg/Front) 24%/24%/21% -> (Early/Mid-Late) 24%/20%. Sword begins to glow frame 19.
Down Smash (Hit 1): Active 15-18 -> 15, FAF 64 -> 60. Damage 6% -> 6%.
Down Smash (Hit 2): Active 35-38 -> 35, FAF 64 -> 60. Damage (Foot/Leg/Body) 15%/15%/13% -> 15%. Damage seems to be consistent throughout sword. Total 21% -> 21%. Proper damage values found by Hokori.

Aerials:
Nair (Hit 1): Active 7-8 -> 7, FAF 42 -> ?, Landing Lag 17 -> 10. Damage 7% -> 7%.
Nair (Hit 1, Late): Active 9-13 -> ?, FAF 42 -> ?, Landing Lag 17 -> 10. Damage 5.25% -> 5%
Nair (Hit 2): Active 17-18 -> 17, FAF 42 -> ?, Landing Lag 17 -> 10. Damage 12% -> 12%. Total 19% ->19%
Nair (Hit 2, Late): Active 19-29 -> ?, FAF 42 -> ?, Landing Lag 17 -> 10. Damage 9% -> 9%.
Fair: Active 14-19 -> 14, FAF 45 -> 45 Landing Lag 22 -> 15. Damage (Fist/Arm) 18/17% -> 18%/17%.
Bair: Active 10-12 -> 10, FAF 36 -> ?, Landing Lag 19 -> 12. Damage (Fist/Arm/Body) 17%/16%/16% -> 17%/16%/16%.
Up Air (Early): Active 6-10 -> 8, FAF 34 -> 34, Landing Lag 19 -> 13. Damage (Foot/Leg) 13%/12% -> 13%/12%. "Whoosh" effects appear at Frame 6, but hitbox seems to come out frame 8.
Up Air (Mid): Active 11-13 -> ?, FAF 34 -> 34, Landing Lag 19 -> 13. Damage (Foot/Leg) 12%/10% -> ?%/10%.
Up Air (Late): Active 14-16 -> ?, FAF 34 -> 34, Landing Lag 19 -> 13. Damage (Foot/Leg) 8%/6% -> 9%/5%. Sends at a low angle, but possibly not 0.
Dair: Active 16-18 -> 16, FAF 47 -> 47, Landing Lag 26 -> 16. Damage (Feet/Upper Body) 19%/17% -> 19%/17%.

Specials:
Warlock Punch: Active 70-71 (Super Armor 11-65) -> 70, FAF 118 -> ?. Damage 30% -> 30%.
Warlock Punch (Aerial): Active 70-71 -> ?, FAF 118 -> ?. Damage 38% -> ?%.
Warlock Punch (B-Reversed): Active 80-81 (Super Armor 27-67) -> ?, FAF 128 -> ?. Damage 37% -> ?%.
Warlock Punch (B-Reversed, Aerial): Active 80-81 -> ?, FAF 128 -> ?. Damage 40% -> ?%.
Flame Choke (Ground): Active 16-30 -> ?, FAF 60 -> 60.
Flame Choke (Ground Attack): Active 32 -> 32, FAF 62 -> 57. Damage 12% -> 12%.
Flame Choke (Aerial): Active 19-31 -> ?.
Flame Choke (Aerial Attack): Active 1-2 -> 1, FAF 41 -> 41. Damage 15% -> 15%.
Dark Dive (Command Grab): Active 14-28 -> ?.
Dark Dive (Latch, Loop Hits): Damage 1.2% -> 1.2%.
Dark Dive (Latch, Final Hit): FAF 60 -> ?. Damage 9% -> 9%. Total 13.8% -> 13.8%
Dark Dive (Attack): Active 34-36 -> 34. Damage 7% -> 7%.
Wizard's Foot (Grounded): Active 16-35 -> 16, FAF 77 -> 60. Damage (Body/Leg/Foot) 14%/14%/12% (+4) -> 12.6%/15.2%/17.7%. Proper Foot Hitbox damage found by Hokori.
Wizard's Foot (Aerial): Active 16-18 -> ?, FAF 58 -> ?. Damage 15% (+10) -> ?%.
Wizard's Foot (Aerial, Late): Active 19-38 -> ?, FAF 58 -> ?. Damage 14% (+10) -> 14%.
Wizard's Foot (Landing): Active 2-3 -> 2, FAF 45 -> 45. Damage 8% -> 8%.

Grabs/Throws:
Standing Grab: Active 7-8 -> 7, FAF 36 -> 36. Now overhand with his left as opposed to underhand with his right.
Dash Grab: Active 11-12 -> 11, FAF 45 -> ?.
Pivot Grab: Active 10-11 -> ?, FAF 42 -> ?.
Pummel: Active 4 -> 1, FAF 24 -> 12. Damage 3% -> 1.6%.
F-Throw: Damage 5%, 8% -> 5%, 8%. Total 13% -> 13%.
Back Throw: Damage 5%, 5% -> 5%, 5%. Total 10% -> 10%.
Up Throw: Damage 7%, 3% -> 10%, 3%. Total 10% -> 13%. Proper damage found by Hokori.
Down Throw: Damage 7% -> 7%.
 
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Hokori

Take Your TIme
Premium
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
4,471
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Stankonia, GA
#2
Thanks for this!

Looking at these all of these damage buffs make me happy. Aside from the whole Canondorf thing that a lot of other fans desire, all I really wanted was for Ganon to get some of that Melee mobility back. That wish was granted + we have these sweet, sweet damage buffs.

One quick thing I noticed...it seems we have more Dmsash damage than advertised here.


The first hit in this clip did 6.3% while the second did 18.9%, for a grand total of 25.2%.
 

Almand

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 20, 2018
Messages
210
#3
Thanks for this!

Looking at these all of these damage buffs make me happy. Aside from the whole Canondorf thing that a lot of other fans desire, all I really wanted was for Ganon to get some of that Melee mobility back. That wish was granted + we have these sweet, sweet damage buffs.

One quick thing I noticed...it seems we have more Dmsash damage than advertised here.


The first hit in this clip did 6.3% while the second did 18.9%, for a grand total of 25.2%.
Thanks! You were given credit in the original post. Also from that video, F-Tilt seems to deal 15.1% on the foot sweetspot. Which, y'know. Wow, I thought that move was nerfed. Jab, too, deals 12.6%.
 
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Flon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 12, 2018
Messages
42
#5
You're right that damage is increased in 1v1 itemless fights; it's by 1.2x which also stacks with the 1.05x fresh bonus. It can be difficult to understand exactly what has been buffed or not when swapping between data collection for free-for-alls and 1v1 because of that...

So, if we take a few select moves using the Smash 4 data values and give them this bonus...
Code:
Neutral Attack: 10% x 1.2 x 1.05 = 12.6%
Dash Attack: 14% x 1.2 x 1.05 = 17.64%
Forward Tilt: 13% x 1.2 x 1.05 = 16.38%
Forward Air: 18% x 1.2 x 1.05 = 22.68%
Down Air: 19% x 1.2 x 1.05 = 23.94%
These end results seem to line up with Ultimate. Does this mean it got buffed or not...?

Trying to organize damage with the 1v1 multiplier can be quite confusing; I thought Ike's damage output had been increased in Ultimate because forward air did 14.4%, but it turns out it was actually nerfed to 11.5% base. Likewise, if Ganon's forward tilt is only dealing 15.12% sweetspotted in 1v1, then it has been nerfed to 12% base.
 
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Almand

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 20, 2018
Messages
210
#6
You're right that damage is increased in 1v1 itemless fights; it's by 1.2x which also stacks with the 1.05x fresh bonus. It can be difficult to understand exactly what has been buffed or not when swapping between data collection for free-for-alls and 1v1 because of that...

So, if we take a few select moves using the Smash 4 data values and give them this bonus...
Code:
Neutral Attack: 10% x 1.2 x 1.05 = 12.6%
Dash Attack: 14% x 1.2 x 1.05 = 17.64%
Forward Tilt: 13% x 1.2 x 1.05 = 16.38%
Forward Air: 18% x 1.2 x 1.05 = 22.68%
Down Air: 19% x 1.2 x 1.05 = 23.94%
These end results seem to line up with Ultimate. Does this mean it got buffed or not...?

Trying to organize damage with the 1v1 multiplier can be quite confusing; I thought Ike's damage output had been increased in Ultimate because forward air did 14.4%, but it turns out it was actually nerfed to 11.5% base. Likewise, if Ganon's forward tilt is only dealing 15.12% sweetspotted in 1v1, then it has been nerfed to 12% base.
For some reason, I was thinking that 1v1s were the usual damage, while 3+ characters and/or with items had nerfed damage values. This makes a bit more sense, in retrospect. At the same time, though, it invalidates a lot of the stuff I found. I didn't even know 1v1s had to be itemless for that buffed damage, honestly.
 

Boartobewild

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2018
Messages
168
Location
Austria
#9
I mained Jiggs in Smash 4 for the first few months, and now I main Pac-Man. I know exactly how it feels, man.
This isn't bad though, as Ganon certainely benefits both ways from the damage icrease.
For one thing there have been surely so many circumstances where just a little bit more knockback and damage would have ensured the kill/stock in smash4 and the other characters getting damage buffs( and more importantly knockback) as well at the same time, means Ganon won't get comboed that easily anymore.
 

Almand

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 20, 2018
Messages
210
#10
This isn't bad though, as Ganon certainely benefits both ways from the damage icrease.
For one thing there have been surely so many circumstances where just a little bit more knockback and damage would have ensured the kill/stock in smash4 and the other characters getting damage buffs( and more importantly knockback) as well at the same time, means Ganon won't get comboed that easily anymore.
As Flon mentioned, he wasn't actually buffed that much in terms of damage. All the "buffs" I've been putting in the master list are with that 1.26x bonus, due to Freshness and the 1v1 itemless multiplier. So, really, he'll do way more damage, but only in those specific matches. Aside from that, though, some moves are faster, landing lag is absolutely insane for him, he's faster on the ground (maybe in the air, too), so on. So I certainly do think he'll be better.

It seems everyone's been buffed, though, so we'll just have to see. Oddly enough, Ganon is one of the few characters with viable throw combos in Ultimate (Down Throw > Nair). As strange as it sounds, so does Pac-Man; he has Up Throw Up Air. But, again, we'll see once the game actually comes out.
 

Almand

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 20, 2018
Messages
210
#11
Update!

I'll be changing the damage to reflect BASE % dealt, rather than Fresh 1v1. I just think it'll be easier to play with; I don't have to constantly say "This might be a sourspot????" and such.

Thanks for bearing with me!
 

I Like Link

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
21
#12
>thinking that Sakurai and company would actually directly buff Ganondorf.

You haven't been around here long, have you?
As Flon mentioned, he wasn't actually buffed that much in terms of damage. All the "buffs" I've been putting in the master list are with that 1.26x bonus, due to Freshness and the 1v1 itemless multiplier. So, really, he'll do way more damage, but only in those specific matches. Aside from that, though, some moves are faster, landing lag is absolutely insane for him, he's faster on the ground (maybe in the air, too), so on. So I certainly do think he'll be better.

It seems everyone's been buffed, though, so we'll just have to see. Oddly enough, Ganon is one of the few characters with viable throw combos in Ultimate (Down Throw > Nair). As strange as it sounds, so does Pac-Man; he has Up Throw Up Air. But, again, we'll see once the game actually comes out.
While everyone benefits from the 1 v 1 damage buffs and lower end lag, I feel it benefits Ganondorf and other heavies even more. The frame data for his aerials and tilts are pretty good considering how strong they are, but it was his mobility and the end lag/landing lag of his attacks that was his downfall, and that most or all of that can be rectified in Ultimate.
His increased 1 v 1 damage is going to make his attacks much safer on shield, especially his jab, which no longer has a sour spot and almost does as much as his tilts in Smash 4. In Smash 4 his jab was punishable if you didn't hit with the sweetspot. Unless shield stun is nerfed in 1 v 1, he's going to be much better against shields. Pretty much all his aerials are safe on shield now with the insane damage and landing lag, so in terms of throwing out safe attacks, he's no longer going to be at a big disadvantage. Down air can do 24 damage and its landing lag is less than any of his aerials in Smash 4, that's pretty insane.
 
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Boartobewild

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2018
Messages
168
Location
Austria
#13
Exactly how can we be sure that the normal warlock punch super armor frames stayed the same? And someone knows or can say with absolute certainty that airial Wp didn't gain any super armor? If the damage out put for airial Wp is indeed still higher, that would dissapoint me a great deal, bc that is almost as stupid and unnecassary as the concept and creation of the Volcano Kick IMHO.
 

King9999

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#14
Loving the changes to the landing lag. The Dair lag reduction is huge. I wonder if you can short hop it and not suffer any landing lag though.
 

Almand

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 20, 2018
Messages
210
#15
Loving the changes to the landing lag. The Dair lag reduction is huge. I wonder if you can short hop it and not suffer any landing lag though.
In this clip, you can see that Ganon fast-falls a Dair that autocancels (goes into shield immediately after). Using the frame-by-frame tool, I calculated that he landed 32 frames after landing. Also in that video, I calculated that Ganon's shorthop is 30 frames long. In Smash 4, these values are the exact same, so it seems they're unchanged unless the autocancel window was shortened.

Then, I found this clip, where Ganon lands exactly 31 frames after inputting Dair. and he's put into lag. I hate to say it, guys, but Ganon still can't shorthop autocancel Dair... :/ He's only two frames away from autocancelling it, too!
 

Boodendorf

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
Messages
6
#16
Any update to this list? Since we can see moves go frame by frame in training mode, I was wondering how safe on shield some of his attacks were.
 
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