The issue of liking posts

[BoomFrog]

Not sure where to put this so made a new thread. I do think liking posts in mafia is problematic. It's a way to send information but it's weirdly parallel to normal posting. I don't like that you get different information from the thread depending on the timing of when you read it. Like you reread and find different people liked some posts that gives you new information and I don't think that new information should be hidden back in the thread. All new info should be new posts only.

There's also some side issues that unliking is kind of like editing, and you can like stuff at night which is kind of like posting at night. But both of those could just be fixed with simple rules.

 

[Pokechu]

I'm very glad you made this thread!!!! Thanks tons!! I'm a little embarrassed too, after some people voiced their concerns in Oasis I should've been on it already LOL

Personally I think that likes have a minimal impact on mafia. Maybe it's because I've always seen them as just a quick way to show support for posts (regardless of context, like in mafia or in other subforums). But I feel like as a whole mafia will never be truly "fair" with regards to new information.

Say you're playing in a game full of friends who know each other, besides you. You're the odd duck out. That means that every other player has meta they can make use of, of one another, to build and influence their reads. But given you've never played with these people before, you cannot. Doesn't this put you at a disadvantage?

It's a tiny disadvantage, but I'd say it counts as one nonetheless. I think liking posts falls in a similar area. Ultimately the information gained from liking a post I wouldn't call gamechanging and if someone went so far as to like a post, chances are it is already something they themselves have been posting about as well (so in that sense no 'new' information is gained).

I definitely understand the concern though and if the general consensus is that liking needs to get outta town (no pun intended again!!!! LMAO) then I'll see what I can do about that! I'm 99% certain it's possible for higher-ups to disable likes in specific subforums.

Would you like a poll to be added to the thread? "Do you think 'liking' posts should be allowed? Yes/No" I can abuse my moderatoral powers to grant this wish!! Or maybe no poll to make people have to post their thoughts themselves.... just like how liking prevents posts because people think "I'll just like it"

 

[BoomFrog]

The entire point of mafia is teasing significant meaning out of tiny scraps of evidence, so I don't think you can dismiss liking as insignificant.

It's not really about fair. I want the game to be as easy to play as possible. If there's extra info added to old parts of the thread then it's extra work to reread.

I think liking being available helps town as there is more of a record of who agrees with who, that's not necessarily good or bad for the game but it's something to be aware of. It probably makes the game more of a burden for scum as they have to strategically like posts in an innocent way. So I'd say net negative there.

I don't think any mod action is needed, this can be an in game rule. I like that people can like posts in normal discussion and post game. I don't think we need a poll yet, maybe after more discussion.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Aww man, I thought this was a forum game about liking posts at first.

 

[osieorb18]

BoomFrog I see where you're coming from. My forum of origin has long disallowed liking posts due to ability to spread and delete strategic information without record, and I carried that over to my current main site. I think that if removing the reaction is disabled it is an okay function to have, but that's not simple to do in a mafia community that does not have control over their site.

 

[Sabrar]

I think liking adds no information that couldn't be communicated otherwise (just say "I agree" or something similar if you feel the need to let others know). Therefore it can be removed without losing anything of value and if it bothers some people then it should be done if possible. Just my 2c.

 

[Xivii]

I used to feel this way, but we've had it for a while and we actually haven't encountered any problems. I believe we've been working under a set of unspoken gentlemen's rules, based on established rules and a general sense of how to play honorably.

For example,

-Due to the no cryptography rule, you cannot like posts to secretly communicate information to other players.
-Due to the no communicating outside of the game rule, you cannot like players posts from past games while you are in a game with them (unless it is publically communicated. Even then, it should be avoided).
-Due to not posting during the night rule, you cannot like players posts in the game thread while it is night time (unless you can post in the thread, such as UP was allowed to as Insomniac).

I don't think these have ever been made explicit, but I do think they are assumed. Liking is an efficient way to communicate the small bit of information that you agree with something, approve of it, or find it funny. I think this information has a negligible influence on the game, and I don't think it would be worth banning and managing. If you like someone's post or received a like in a way that you think unfairly communicates information between the two of you, you should publically disclose it. I do think making certain 'like' rules explicit in the game rules would be diligent though.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

i want to keep the like function in games. its a fun feature

i dont find it problematic that you can go back and find new ppl liking a post after you first saw it. both townies and mafia can do that. ive done that as both alignments and hav seen others do the same. i dont see it as much different as someone bringing up an old post to quote it and say that they like it or agree with it

i will admit, a clever player might b able to make reads off of that. looking for (in)consistencies between the timing of likes from a certain player and matching it to what they say in their posts. i feel like almost no one is doing this. ill also point out that there is a style of mafia where people can speak outside of the thread to each other in addition to the main thread and its a legitimate style. obviously were not going to that extreme but these things hav the potential to b a little more open ended than one might expect

if im being the most generous its another tool to make reads that i doubt the common player will utilize. i dont think its such a gamechanger of a rule that it should b banned tho. you can make reads by interacting live in the thread (a much more effective way to read ppl than analyzing liked posts imo) but most players arent doing that either. yet its allowed for anyone who wants to put in the time/effort

i do see this as a place where we take the game seriously and do our best to compete. but at the same time theres a casual/light atmosphere to the games that gives the room personality. seeing a funny post where half the playerlist liked a meme is one of those small details that makes dgames, dgames

i remember in the reunion game last year ryker (my scumbuddy), myself, and kary (town) changed our avatars to match midgame as a meme without discussing in the thread why we did it. you could make an argument that such an action is inappropriate but stuff like that is too serious imo. we dont claim to b the premier mafia site where the rules are its most stringent to put everyone on a level playing field

another time in that game i posted a meme and most of the players liked it. the meme was a bingo board of what i expected players to do and had a bunch of throwback jokes to the meta. posting that and seeing us recognize the nostalgia behind it was a highlight of the game for me. players liking the post was way more convenient than having 8 people post LOL and i want stuff like that preserved

if ppl started making cases centered around x liking y post (lol) and it became an issue, then yeah i might b down to do it. but meh, its fun and i just want to keep it cuz it lends itself to camaraderie. i think its dumb that we are allowing ppl to literally post their alignments in a public green room but liking posts is a problem. btw im really tired as i write this so sorry if this is a bit scattered but hopefully my ideas come across

in conclusion? i want to post memes in games so they can b liked and thats the best reason to keep it legal. swag

 

[Xivii]

Cute anime avatar and a wall of text...Marshy are you OK?

 

[osieorb18]

I used to feel this way, but we've had it for a while and we actually haven't encountered any problems. I believe we've been working under a set of unspoken gentlemen's rules, based on established rules and a general sense of how to play honorably.

For example,

-Due to the no cryptography rule, you cannot like posts to secretly communicate information to other players.
-Due to the no communicating outside of the game rule, you cannot like players posts from past games while you are in a game with them (unless it is publically communicated. Even then, it should be avoided).
-Due to not posting during the night rule, you cannot like players posts in the game thread while it is night time (unless you can post in the thread, such as UP was allowed to as Insomniac).

I don't think these have ever been made explicit, but I do think they are assumed. Liking is an efficient way to communicate the small bit of information that you agree with something, approve of it, or find it funny. I think this information has a negligible influence on the game, and I don't think it would be worth banning and managing. If you like someone's post or received a like in a way that you think unfairly communicates information between the two of you, you should publically disclose it. I do think making certain 'like' rules explicit in the game rules would be diligent though.

If I like a post with a specific result, it's rarely something that would be intentional. I'm doing it off-hand. But that means if anything that I'm more likely to slip up my alignment in this manner. While that is WIFOM, in its simplest state it is the case.

 

[theMayonator]

i came here just to like the post

 

[ranmaru]

I generally don't have a problem with likes. I like the like system. I think if we just consider anyone liking something as null, then we'll be good. I don't see it as 'buddying' or anything that makes me uncomfortable. Instead I just like seeing my posts getting likes.

 

[somitomi]

I only played mafia on one forum until it went offline and that one didn't have likes so I just disregarded them in the one game I played since then. Which was probably for the better, one of the players there mentioned post-game, that they use it simply to mark interesting or noteworthy posts for themselves. The fact that you can remove likes later is iffy, but since I don't put much stock in them to begin with, I don't think it's a big deal. On the other hand I'd probably never like posts in a game of mafia so I wouldn't complain if they were forbidden by the game rules.

 

[BoomFrog]

Since all the natives to this forum like keeping it as is, I'll give it another try. I do like the easy camaraderie it facilitates.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

i thought this would be a problem when we first switched to likes. having played with it i dont think its that big of a problem

i think it would be possible to abuse, similar to what osie said, but it didnt happen yet. most people arent here to cheat anyways

im not sure how i feel about banning likes during the night. i like to catch up during the night and liking someones posts when i see them is kinda the same as bookmarking them and then liking them when the day starts again, but without the extra effort.

you obviously shouldnt do it when you're dead imo- but then i might make an exception for a mod post with a flip, for instance.

i think marshy makes a good point about avatars and about how this isnt a community built on hypercompetition

its also a community where we have tried different things and some wild ideas over the years. maybe someones next game *cough* Xivii should have a flat zero likes rule and then the players could give us feedback about how they felt about it. my gut is it would be worse but maybe some of our newer players would be a lot more at home with that (didnt read oasis so dont have the whole context sorry).

also poke being embarrassed is a cute look

edit: maybe nothing im saying is here is noteworthy and im making the post for the likes. maybe its a drug and im addicted.

 

[Pythag]

in conclusion? i want to post memes in games so they can b liked and thats the best reason to keep it legal. swag

QFT

 

[Strong Badam]

FYI likes can be disabled in this forum easily so if after the conclusion of this discussion, Pokechu comes to me and says "ye olde DGames has spoken and we want the Likes Gone!!!!" then I can make it happen. I can see how it'd have an impact on diplomacy games, and could be positive or negative depending on your perspective. I'm cool with letting the group of active DGames players decide stuff like that and I appreciate seeing a few more "meta" type discussions going on here recently. The biggest concern of these meta type threads is having them while an active game is going on, because you may actually be influencing how others interpret the use of Likes by the players in the game. I'll always recommend having them after a game concludes/between games to avoid that type of thing. I'm not up to date on whether or not that's the case, but yeah.

Like this post if you think I'm scum!

 

[Pokechu]

Embarrass

The entire point of mafia is teasing significant meaning out of tiny scraps of evidence, so I don't think you can dismiss liking as insignificant.

It's not really about fair. I want the game to be as easy to play as possible. If there's extra info added to old parts of the thread then it's extra work to reread.

I think liking being available helps town as there is more of a record of who agrees with who, that's not necessarily good or bad for the game but it's something to be aware of. It probably makes the game more of a burden for scum as they have to strategically like posts in an innocent way. So I'd say net negative there.

I don't think any mod action is needed, this can be an in game rule. I like that people can like posts in normal discussion and post game. I don't think we need a poll yet, maybe after more discussion.

Oooo yeah that's smart, it being an in-game rule. I'm a roundabout person so I didn't consider that LMAO I guess since I've always seen information as not easily accessible or equally accessible for everyone, that likes never bothered me. If someone does go combing through every page seeing who liked what then more power to them!!!!

Good point on how scum has to strategically like posts though!!! but I don't think it will hurt them in the long run if they don't. I feel like most people tend to ignore or not make much use of metadata like that.

Very interesting to see everyone's input on this!!!! I was going to get my megaphone and mass tag people today and be a nuisance so I am glad that did not happen!!!

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Off topic, but between this thread and Ran's, we've had three people ( pupNapoleon , Wario Wario Wario , and theMayonator ), all of whom have never played mafia, wander into this subforum thinking that these threads are supposed to be some type of forum game (edit: this is a generalization). I thought it was pretty obvious what the DGames subforum was meant for, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

(To those that I've pinged: while you're here, you may be interested in joining an upcoming game of mafia? It's the largest game of mafia that we've had in at least a year, so it'll be tough to fill with veterans. If you're willing to make that time commitment, then we'd love to have you play!)

 

[osieorb18]

FYI likes can be disabled in this forum easily so if after the conclusion of this discussion, Pokechu comes to me and says "ye olde DGames has spoken and we want the Likes Gone!!!!" then I can make it happen. I can see how it'd have an impact on diplomacy games, and could be positive or negative depending on your perspective. I'm cool with letting the group of active DGames players decide stuff like that and I appreciate seeing a few more "meta" type discussions going on here recently. The biggest concern of these meta type threads is having them while an active game is going on, because you may actually be influencing how others interpret the use of Likes by the players in the game. I'll always recommend having them after a game concludes/between games to avoid that type of thing. I'm not up to date on whether or not that's the case, but yeah.

Like this post if you think I'm scum!

Silly Strong Badam, we play mafia, not diplomacy.

 

[Strong Badam]

Silly Strong Badam, we play mafia, not diplomacy.

Social deduction games then!

 

[Pokechu]

Social deduction games then!

Why don't you join the cool kids' table sometime soon??

You can bring Thirdkoopa with!!!! Us three, we can be the scum, and we can just ban whoever gets suspicious of us. That isn't breaking any of the global rules, is it?

 

[osieorb18]

Why don't you join the cool kids' table sometime soon??

You can bring Thirdkoopa with!!!! Us three, we can be the scum, and we can just ban whoever gets suspicious of us. That isn't breaking any of the global rules, is it?

Modkilled for abuse of power.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Off topic, but between this thread and Ran's, we've had three people ( pupNapoleon , Wario Wario Wario , and theMayonator ), all of whom have never played mafia, wander into this subforum thinking that these threads are supposed to be some type of forum game (edit: this is a generalization). I thought it was pretty obvious what the DGames subforum was meant for, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

(To those that I've pinged: while you're here, you may be interested in joining an upcoming game of mafia? It's the largest game of mafia that we've had in at least a year, so it'll be tough to fill with veterans. If you're willing to make that time commitment, then we'd love to have you play!)

Yeah- I love a good game; though I suppose I need to confirm what the commitment requires.
I have been on this forum a long time, somehow I have not wandered into gaming sections.

 

[osieorb18]

Yeah- I love a good game; though I suppose I need to confirm what the commitment requires.
I have been on this forum a long time, somehow I have not wandered into gaming sections.

In the signup which is currently open, 4 content posts per 24 hours (minimum is 1 fewer than 4 posts per 24 hours). Content is subjective, but for example, "I'm here" with nothing else is not content. The goal of the game is to eliminate the other team or ensure that the elimination of the other team cannot be prevented. The game is an uninformed majority playing against an informed minority. Essentially, a few players are the hidden traitors and the rest of the players are trying to sniff them out.

 

[theMayonator]

Off topic, but between this thread and Ran's, we've had three people ( pupNapoleon , Wario Wario Wario , and theMayonator ), all of whom have never played mafia, wander into this subforum thinking that these threads are supposed to be some type of forum game (edit: this is a generalization). I thought it was pretty obvious what the DGames subforum was meant for, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

(To those that I've pinged: while you're here, you may be interested in joining an upcoming game of mafia? It's the largest game of mafia that we've had in at least a year, so it'll be tough to fill with veterans. If you're willing to make that time commitment, then we'd love to have you play!)

i knew it wasnt about smashboards but i thought it was funny

 

[Strong Badam]

Why don't you join the cool kids' table sometime soon??

You can bring Thirdkoopa with!!!! Us three, we can be the scum, and we can just ban whoever gets suspicious of us. That isn't breaking any of the global rules, is it?

Sorry that it took me 2 weeks to get back to you, I was just meticulously checking the Global Rules with a fine tooth comb. Nothing prevents us from banning anyone who votes us as scum, and I can't imagine any mafia players having a problem with this either so I'm sure we'll be fine.

 

[Dooplissity]

Late. but I don't think it's an issue. Sure, it can technically convey more information and can *technically* be used for unsavory behavior, but likes are fun and memey and I think killing them in pursuit of some kind of mafia purity is over the top. There's not money on the line or anything - we should just do what's fun.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Clearly op has never had a killer post in a mafia game that racked up hella likes

 

[ranmaru]

Give this post likes. Thanks.

 

[ExLight]

if the person isn't liking the post after their death I don't see what's the issue, any kind of info should be usable and it just kinda adds another layer to the game

if anything yall should be adding more types of like reactions because just like is kinda boring umu

 

[ranmaru]

I just want to say I love it when scum flips, everyone likes the post. When town flips, no one likes the post.

 

[ExLight]

I just want to say I love it when scum flips, everyone likes the post. When town flips, no one likes the post.

lmfao it’s even better when you recheck it and notice scum didn’t like when scumbud flipped

 

[Pythag]

I just want to say I love it when scum flips, everyone likes the post. When town flips, no one likes the post.

Next time town flips I’m gonna like the post

 

[Xivii]

Pythag where have you been?

What does everyone think of the ethics of Traitor using likes to communicate their identity to the mafia?

 

[ranmaru]

I think it's fine because it's like crumbing to them, and it's public information. Also difficult to verify if it is certainly from a traitor either way.

 

[ExLight]

I think it's fine because it's like crumbing to them, and it's public information. Also difficult to verify if it is certainly from a traitor either way.

is it really? if you pop in the forums and everyone from your mafia team has 20 seemingly random likes from the same dude it’s kinda obvious they’re the traitor lmao

and they can remove the votes afterwards

 

[ExLight]

I used a strategy revolving around likes in a game recently but I realized it could raise some ethical issues if misused and since this thread is a thing I kinda want to bring it up

I asked for a player to claim part of their role, but since it was potentially harmful to town they didn’t want to publicly confirm to everyone; to circumvent that I asked them to like a random old post of mine with a specific reaction depending on which guess I made (the forums had options other than the just “like”), and so he did. This was basically borderline loopholish since it kinda stablished a direct and personal untrackable+ersable communication between us two despite being arguably public.

But the real issue kinda becomes when this is used to straight up break a rule like a claim restriction, how should this be punished? how would this be enforced?

 

[giraffelasergun]

But the real issue kinda becomes when this is used to straight up break a rule like a claim restriction, how should this be punished?

IP ban from the whole forum

 

[Xivii]

I used a strategy revolving around likes in a game recently but I realized it could raise some ethical issues if misused and since this thread is a thing I kinda want to bring it up

I asked for a player to claim part of their role, but since it was potentially harmful to town they didn’t want to publicly confirm to everyone; to circumvent that I asked them to like a random old post of mine with a specific reaction depending on which guess I made (the forums had options other than the just “like”), and so he did. This was basically borderline loopholish since it kinda stablished a direct and personal untrackable+ersable communication between us two despite being arguably public.

But the real issue kinda becomes when this is used to straight up break a rule like a claim restriction, how should this be punished? how would this be enforced?

I'd say that directly violates communicating in code.