The Ideal "4.0"

[Jacob29]

All this Ness love but no Bowser love

 

[Touching_Everything]

• Characters(Returning)
  
  • Pichu
    • Own moves hurt it (like Melee)
    • The more percent Pichu has the less power it has to its electric moves
    • Have guaranteed combo's based on its own percent.
  • Young Link
    • New tricks!
    • Bombchus, deku nuts ect.
• Characters(Already in) PATCHES AND FIXES FOR ALL... the ones that come up to me are...
  • Snake
    • One more Grenade
  • Jigglypuff
    • Buff or complete game change.
  • Mr. Boring to watch and play
    • Complete switch this character to be fun ( I understand that this character is 'good' range, power blah...)
  • Olimar
    
    • Another boring watch.
    • Doesn't need to complete scratch, just rethink a game play for him
  • Capt.Falcon
    • Up special wall jump cancel (like Mario)
    • or the side special

• Modes
  • Ice Climber Mode-everybody gets a 'nana' Bot of your chosen character:D
  • Jump Mode
    • Add Addiction jumps
    • even wall jumps (ex. Bowser wall jumps)
    • NO free falls (L/R and Special ups can be act out of)

• Feel like a pro mode
  
  • Auto L cancels
  • Auto techs when possible
  • Some others
• Stocks for stamina

• Stages

• Castle siege
  • Slit room 1 and room 3 to there own thing
• More neutral stages
  • That one Bowser stage looks really nifty

• Additional.... ?

• Melee tethers
• Smarter AI
  
  • lvl 10?..
• More training Options
• Fixed event matches
  

 

[Ginamudkipz]

-Captain Falcon

• Jump cancel on falcon kick
• Jump reset on kill mechanic for more Falcon Hype
• I've seen ganondorf pierce through projectiles with down-b... i would love that so much for falcon kick

-Yoshi

• Egg roll buffed acceleration
• Something that is actually worthy in the metagame as a mechanic (wall, pressure, speed, range, projectile)(maybe a faster egg toss?)
• Standing grab should have a faster animation...

-Olimar

• Please give him back his old f-smash
• Why is plucking so slow?
• He was the only one actually using super armor in brawl (aside from dk) . Could he have access to it in any way more than a defensive? (throwing out the idea)

-Diddy

• I really have some grudge against his dash attack. It's a freaking high priority-combo starter-multi hit-fast movement gimp maker-with low lag. (seriously it does a little bit two much for the amount of effort put into doing it) maybe slow it's start-up?

-Peach

• I think she was bigger in melee. If i remember correctly she was a lot taller than fox. I would like her to be larger to have a better hitbox coverage like she did in melee so she can go and wall again. Espescially now that a lot of character have better tools and are not fast faller. The only reason she was viable in melee is that she was extremely efficient vs disjoint walls and fast faller. but when she get camped or gets her wall pierced (jiggs, falcon) it's harder. That majority of Pm cast is either really good at playing the neutral game, or have a better get-in without the fast fall weakness... she just does not perform as well. Buffing back her main game plan sounds right to me or...
  
• Have her float have a dash at start-up instead of going really slow. she could optimize her combo and get even more creative to get-in instead of going slow and steady floats. Baits would also be stronger and enable more set-ups. Also her recovery would be enhanced and she would go back at one of the best at it like she used to.

-Ness

• Can he get some kind of Psi magic around his Nair? He awfully needs a good get-in move

-Squirtle

• Seriously this character rack up damage awfully and doesn't combo as well as it feel it should be... I really hope for him to have either stronger strings or get a really fast KO aerial move like fox or sheik does for about the same amount of speed

-Meta knight

• This isn't about balanced or feeling it's not right. But meta-knight Dair is too dominant in metaknights gameplan... from the beginning of smash up to this, fast falling hitbox was extremely bad in everysmash (yoshi down b, kirby rock etc..) it just really bugs me that theres a character doing it and it's good. Maybe i'm just too conservative?

-General

• I don't know if it's just me but ledge invicibility feels shorter than melee. Could it be extended a tiny bit for recovery purpose? It would also give the possibilty for a lot more of the cast of doing the hax stall at ledge without being falcon
• Power shield is messed up... I can't rely on it like i was able to in melee

 

[Aenglaan]

-All Stages from past games are in the game
-N64 stages get a visual upgrade
- stages like Brinestar Depths are kept faithful to their original counterparts.
-engine improvements all around
-enabled stage builder (for Homebrew and Riivolution users of course)
-More extra fun modes
-compatiblity with Adventure mode.
-New event matches
-more alternate costumes
-Fusion Suit, PED Suit, Light Suit, Dark Suit, and Phazon Suit among others for Samus
- More Pikachu and Jiggilypuff hats
- Lord Ike
- Awakening Roy
- Snake costumes from MGS, MGS3, MGS4, and the Tuxedo of course.

 

[Aenglaan]

-All Stages from past games are in the game
-N64 stages get a visual upgrade
- stages like Brinestar Depths are kept faithful to their original counterparts.
-engine improvements all around
-enabled stage builder (for Homebrew and Riivolution users of course)
-More extra fun modes
-compatiblity with Adventure mode.
-New event matches
-more alternate costumes
-Fusion Suit, PED Suit, Light Suit, Dark Suit, and Phazon Suit among others for Samus
- More Pikachu and Jiggilypuff hats
- Lord Ike
- Awakening Roy
- Snake costumes from MGS, MGS3, MGS4, and the Tuxedo of course.

 

[Bazkip]

-Captain Falcon

• Jump cancel on falcon kick
• Jump reset on kill mechanic for more Falcon Hype
• I've seen ganondorf pierce through projectiles with down-b...I would love that so much for falcon kick

Jump cancelled kick would give him infinite jumps. That's a pretty massive flaw.
Even if they were to do something like only the grounded version was jump cancelleable, or it can only be jump cancelled once before landing, it'd be far too safe a move.

As for projectiles, Wizard's Foot goes through many projectiles because it out-prioritizes their damage. For Falcon Kick to go through the same projectiles, they'd have to buff it to deal the same damage. That'd might make it a little too good, as Falcon's down B is much faster than Ganon's.

 

[Ginamudkipz]

Jump cancelled kick would give him infinite jumps. That's a pretty massive flaw.
Even if they were to do something like only the grounded version was jump cancelleable, or it can only be jump cancelled once before landing, it'd be far too safe a move.

As for projectiles, Wizard's Foot goes through many projectiles because it out-prioritizes their damage. For Falcon Kick to go through the same projectiles, they'd have to buff it to deal the same damage. That'd might make it a little too good, as Falcon's down B is much faster than Ganon's.

I forgot to specify the grounded falcon kick, however I don't think it would be as safe as you might think. As a reference take ike's side b. The only thing i would add if it would need to be balanced is a window range where you could jump out of it so it would still have the start-up weakness and would still finish if you go for a max range falcon kick. You could only jump in the middle part of the falcon kick. I think it would enable cool combo set-up, render one of his signature move usable in a match. New mechanic to falcon without getting far from the movement speciality.

I am also not certain about falcons kick damage being ok as it is. If the jump cancel thing isn't a thing, well since the move is really double edged, making it a read on projectiles walls such as dr.mario pills would at least make him less vulnerable. I know he got the movement to somewhat deal with walls, he can pick-up his fight almost all the time. but this kind of thing could at least make the waller hesitate whether he should throw a projectile or prepare for an initiate.

 

[Bourg]

I have played a development build and I'm pretty sworn to secrecy on what's actually in it. All I can really say is that there are awesome additions and changes that nobody on here will ever think of before release. You will not be disappointed by the next major update.

 

[Mr.Random]

A mix of Smash64, Melee, and Brawl sound effects for hits and attacks. The electrical-sound effects from Brawl hits are just so cringeworthy and don't feel like they have any power.

Most of Brawl's sfx are cringeworthy. Use the strong hit of Fox's Nair against someone in PM and it sounds like a splash from pool. Now do it in Melee and you get a sorta "DOOM!" sfx. Much more impact.

 

[Bazkip]

I forgot to specify the grounded falcon kick, however I don't think it would be as safe as you might think. As a reference take ike's side b. The only thing i would add if it would need to be balanced is a window range where you could jump out of it so it would still have the start-up weakness and would still finish if you go for a max range falcon kick. You could only jump in the middle part of the falcon kick. I think it would enable cool combo set-up, render one of his signature move usable in a match. New mechanic to falcon without getting far from the movement speciality.

I am also not certain about falcons kick damage being ok as it is. If the jump cancel thing isn't a thing, well since the move is really double edged, making it a read on projectiles walls such as dr.mario pills would at least make him less vulnerable. I know he got the movement to somewhat deal with walls, he can pick-up his fight almost all the time. but this kind of thing could at least make the waller hesitate whether he should throw a projectile or prepare for an initiate.

Ike is a relatively slow character otherwise though, which prevents his options out of it from being too crazy. I'm worried it might give too many options to him. Might be alright with a restricted window, but I'm not convinced.

I'm not necessarily opposed to Falcon Kick going through projectiles so much as I don't think it's a good idea to buff Falcon's moves to be as strong as Ganon's (unless they also buffed Wiz Kick at the same time, but that'll probably bring it's own problems). Also you can't just go around giving everyone easy tools of dealing with projectiles, else they become fairly useless.

 

[Ginamudkipz]

i always fetl wiz kick was overall better in melee and in pm than falcon kick. Also do not forget wiz kick is a very strong recovery move. Falcon kick is... situational... buffing the falcon kick seems reasonable and i can't see being overpowered thaaat much

 

[Bazkip]

i always fetl wiz kick was overall better in melee and in pm than falcon kick. Also do not forget wiz kick is a very strong recovery move. Falcon kick is... situational... buffing the falcon kick seems reasonable and i can't see being overpowered thaaat much

Well recovery is a whole different aspect. Maybe if they shortened the distance it covers in the air a tad. I think that'd be fine.

 

[Giygacoal]

-Lucario
Make Up-Smash animation better so his arm doesn't pop out of its socket.
Make Shiny Lucario's eyes red. That's the color they are in the Pokémon games.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

So I think they should take a look into some data as well, I have looked at over 120 tournaments and analyzed them a bit. The following is a sort of tournament 'tier list' of the likelihood you are to face a character in the top 8 at a random tournament (random day/place). I think this will show what characters people are spending time to delve into and play at a somewhat higher caliber. I just kinda made of the percents but it the data of the grouping and ordering should be rouhgly accurate and at least gives some insight to statistics of PM.

Spoiler: Tournament Tier List

 

[Sour Supreme]

I don't check in on this thread often, but I have to comment expressing my distaste for the amount of Nerf/Buff talk floating about.

The point of this thread should be to discuss additional interests, rather than fixing what we've already been given. (Aside from simple animation or skin problems) Several members of the PMBR have expressed not wanting to see such discussion, and rightfully so. They're doing their best to make a balanced, unbiased roster. It's very discouraging to see people complaining about changes they've made, or thinking that people need nerfs or buffs. Those kind of alterations should be left up to the PMBR.

I guess I'm really just trying to say this thread could benefit from the focus of new, creative ideas rather than the complaints people have about 3.0. The ideal 4.0 will have some balance changes, yes, but those go without saying. I'd rather not ponder them, as I know the PMBR will work those out accordingly.

Anyways, that's just my two cents worth.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

So I think they should take a look into some data as well, I have looked at over 120 tournaments and analyzed them a bit. The following is a sort of tournament 'tier list' of the likelihood you are to face a character in the top 8 at a random tournament (random day/place). I think this will show what characters people are spending time to delve into and play at a somewhat higher caliber. I just kinda made of the percents but it the data of the grouping and ordering should be rouhgly accurate and at least gives some insight to statistics of PM.

Spoiler: Tournament Tier List

View attachment 15131

Shouldn't this go into the hellhole that is the Project M Tier List Discussion thread?

Also if you're calculating overall usage more than just ability then it looks kinda accurate. But I don't think Fox is the best character in the game anymore, even if he's the most used.

 

[Sour Supreme]

I don't think Fox is the best character in the game anymore.

 

[Zoa]

Solution for Ganon

-Remove everything but dair
-Give him a shine

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I don't think I can give you a , but observe that nearly every character in the game has some sort of counter against specifically Fox and Falco. Mario's u-throw, for instance, sends them above just the right distance to allow them to fasfall just the right amount of distance, giving him the opportunity to chaingrab them toward the edge of the screen. It's an okay throw against everyone else.

Not that I think they shouldn't be changed--it makes fighting more troublesome for Fox amd Falco, Fox and Falco still get to keep some of their more polarizing attacks (such as u-smash and d-air, respectively), and the anti-Fox and -Falco kits everyone has can severely damage other sorts of matchups--but just know that literally EVERYONE can deal with them now if they know what they're doing.

Also the new best character in the game is Lucas, no question. That's right--Mother fans finally have a top tier character

 

[Sour Supreme]

I don't think I can give you a , but observe that nearly every character in the game has some sort of counter against specifically Fox and Falco. Mario's u-throw, for instance, sends them above just the right distance to allow them to fasfall just the right amount of distance, giving him the opportunity to chaingrab them toward the edge of the screen. It's an okay throw against everyone else.

Not that I think they shouldn't be changed--it makes fighting more troublesome for Fox amd Falco, Fox and Falco still get to keep some of their more polarizing attacks (such as u-smash and d-air, respectively), and the anti-Fox and -Falco kits everyone has can severely damage other sorts of matchups--but just know that literally EVERYONE can deal with them now if they know what they're doing.

Also the new best character in the game is Lucas, no question. That's right--Mother fans finally have a top tier character

I was referencing the fact that I think Link might be the new best character. xD

But, that said, it's very hard to determine at this point. One minute I'll be so sure and the next I'm not. Lucas is definitely a contender. I think the spacies are still very good, and Lucas, Link and Pit (Especially thanks to his chain grab abilities) are close to being the best.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I was referencing the fact that I think Link might be the new best character. xD

But, that said, it's very hard to determine at this point. One minute I'll be so sure and the next I'm not. Lucas is definitely a contender. I think the spacies are still very good, and Lucas, Link and Pit (Especially thanks to his chain grab abilities) are close to being the best.

Oh, lol I misinterpreted that.

Mario is underrated too. If played right, he can turn around any situation he's in since he can adequately do nearly everything.

Most everyone's viable, basically, though yeah a few do stand out among the rest. That's what I love about this mod--more than being advertised as an evolution of Melee with Brawl ATs, everyone's balanced just enough so even the supposed worst character can still beat the best with only a little more work than usual. It's like a bunch are A tier, most are A- tier, and the "worst" are still B tier.

 

[Psi Sig]

• Modes
  • Ice Climber Mode-everybody gets a 'nana' Bot of your chosen character:D

↑ umm yes!!!

and for Ness, RETURN OF THE 64 NEUTRAL AIR
pantsing on 'em

 

[DatDolphin]

Dark Samus, Ridley, and Ray MK III as playable characters.

Nerfs to Diddy's dash attack. Why can you combo a dash attack into 3 more and a spike?

Removal of the Lucas dair infinite.

Split the Fire Emblem stage into two stages.

Captain Falcon with a new move set and some tweaks. (walljump out of up-b, able to sweetspot the ledge with side-b, 64 upsmash, downb pierces projectiles)

Also that Ice Climber Mode thing sounds hilarious. Ike Climbers can become a reality.

Give Sheik the ability to drift out of up-b again.

Basically delete Diddy and start over.

 

[Charby]

Here are some Changes :

Sheik :

• New Side B
• New Down B : No more Switch with Zelda like in Smash4 ( Not sure about that one but could be good)
• Fair : The melee SFX must return

Marth :

• New USmash
• Neutral B : Buff on the Shield Breaking power (Maybe the shield breaking power could charges up faster, the more you hold b), at the moment even you charges it you won't break anything

Roy :

• Dair : Give it spike properties but keep the trajectory vertical.

Falcon :

• Faster D-Tilt
• UP B : 64 Killing power (and give your jump back?)
• Neutral B : You can now delay The Falcon Punch by holding b up to 5 second or less i don't know

ZSS:

• Faster Grab
• Giver her a Zair

Replay works with every setCode now, i think they would need to recode the entire replay System tho.

Training Mode (Well 20XX Melee pack here):

• Infinite Shield Mode
• Computer Hold Shield forever Mode

 

[Giygacoal]

I want a tournament-viable organic-looking (like Brinstar, but maybe based on a different section of the world) Metroid stage.
I'm thinking about digitally painting a concept picture for it just because.

Also Captain Falcon and Ganon could use some expanded utility somehow. Even Sheik seems not-top-tier-enough to deserve a more practical side-B imo.

 

[Roxas215]

I just want Zss to have a zair and faster grab or at least faster recovery from a missed grab. Some shiek buffs and Zard buffs to compensate him being juggled to death.

 

[Cnip]

1. Jigglypuff rework or balance patch
2. Select Metal Mario by holding L on Mario character select
3. Pokemon trio get their own final smashes
4. More Alt costumes for characters with open slots (Melee Ganondorf)
5. Yoshi parry fix
6. whatever #47 is
7. Slippy added
8. Overall character balance tweaks
9. 1-frame physics delay fix for those who complain
10. More stages added or stages swapped for more favorable stages
11. Cosmetic tweaks and updates
12. Possibly other characters added

 

[Bazkip]

Roy :

• Dair : Give it spike properties but keep the trajectory vertical.

A spike isn't a move property, it's merely a trajectory that the game doesn't detect as being a meteor smash.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Spike

So that would be impossible.

 

[TimeSmash]

Can we please let ZSS act out of her Down sooner to do other things, or have some alternate button input so we can do something besides the dive kick??

 

[batistabus]

I want to live in a world where Sethlon comes in 2nd at a national (to M2K).

 

[Empyrean]

I want to live in a world where Sethlon comes in 2nd at a national (to M2K).

PMBR, get on this.

 

[Astraea31]

1. 5 Brand new characters (hopefully Isaac, Sami and Lyn get picked)
2. Some slight balance tweaks (Mario's fireballs, Ness's PK Fire, Links Boomerang, some recoveries..)
3. 1 frame physics delay gets fixed
4. Hard pressing L or R twice counts as separate button inputs (for WD OOS)
5. Single Player mode gets fixed (doesn't really matter to me, but it might for some)
6. Other bugs I guess

What kind of irks me is I think the PMBR might not release anything close to Smash 4 (due to potential C&D), so we might actually have to wait a good amount of time before we see 4.0... Hopefully not too long.

 

[steelguttey]

so on the olimar patch discussion i suggested a way to remove rng without having a linear order of pikmin. the discussion is here and i think it has its place on this thread.

 

[Giygacoal]

or have some alternate button input so we can do something besides the dive kick??

She already has that. After downB, she can midair jump or flip off of opponents when B is pressed near a target. Doing so to a grounded opponent causes trip.

 

[TimeSmash]

She already has that. After downB, she can midair jump or flip off of opponents when B is pressed near a target. Doing so to a grounded opponent causes trip.

I mean other aerials, or air dodges. Sorry for the vagueness

 

[Sai_]

Non-suicidal CPU. That's the only reason I quit the game.

 

[steelguttey]

Non-suicidal CPU. That's the only reason I quit the game.

you shouldnt be playing with cpus much regardless

 

[UMR | donmk]

A spike isn't a move property, it's merely a trajectory that the game doesn't detect as being a meteor smash.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Spike

So that would be impossible.

It would be theoretically possible by adding 360 degrees to the angle. For example, a move that sends at an angle of 270 degrees is a meteor that hits straight down, but a move that sends at 630 degrees sends straight down but is a spike (360+270)

I'm pretty sure this is how the PMBR got around the increased meteor window in Brawl (at least that's how Marth's dair works).

Not saying that I agree with the suggestion, but merely that it is possible to implement.

 

[Bazkip]

It would be theoretically possible by adding 360 degrees to the angle. For example, a move that sends at an angle of 270 degrees is a meteor that hits straight down, but a move that sends at 630 degrees sends straight down but is a spike (360+270)

I'm pretty sure this is how the PMBR got around the increased meteor window in Brawl (at least that's how Marth's dair works).

Not saying that I agree with the suggestion, but merely that it is possible to implement.

Oh, true, didn't consider that. Though I don't think the PMBR would do that for Melee meteor trajectories purely for the sake of consistency.

 

[UMR | donmk]

I agree that the PMBR probably wont add in spikes inside meteor trajectories, and I'll even go as far as to say that (in my opinion) they shouldn't. I just wanted to point out that from a technical standpoint, it was possible.