Guide The Hidden Wisdom, A Project M Sheik Fundamental Information Guide!

[Denjinpachi]

Denjinpachi submitted a new guide:

The Hidden Wisdom, A Project M Sheik Fundamental Guide! (WIP) - Project M Sheik Guide

This guide will cover sheik's basic uses for her smash attack's, specials, recovery options, and overall game-plan for a fundamental understanding of the character in Project M!

Read more about this guide...

 

[Denjinpachi]

I know its just a start, but would anyone think it'd also be appropriate to note the percent range each move can do if they land them? I kind of wanted to keep it basic, with slight explanations, but would that help give a better idea on what she can do?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

You can reference @KingsGambit27 's spreadsheet. It looks like he's been working on it again.

 

[Denjinpachi]

You can reference @KingsGambit27 's spreadsheet. It looks like he's been working on it again.

Ill be sure to make a good spot to reference this table. I'll see if I can add any notes I find, or learn as well. Thank you very much

 

[Denjinpachi]

Denjinpachi updated The Hidden Wisdom, A Project M Sheik Fundamental Guide! (WIP) with a new update entry:

Give me a hand!

This is my first shot at compiling information into a guide, so please let me know of better ways to format my information, and thing you think a fundamental guide for a character should have! I'm all ears! Er...eyes. Lol.

Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[Tarul]

I think it'd be good to use KirbyKaze's Sheik guide, and then add the new PM stuff. Sheik's frame data is pretty much the same, and outside of the throw mixups, Sheik hasn't changed.

I think that the PM guide should focus on the new stuff that PM Sheik can do. RAR Bairs, Poof pressure (I can't seem to do this consistently, though), Proper use of throw mix-ups, crawl, etc.

But if you need any help, send me a message or something I'd like to make this board more active again!

 

[Denjinpachi]

I think it'd be good to use KirbyKaze's Sheik guide, and then add the new PM stuff. Sheik's frame data is pretty much the same, and outside of the throw mixups, Sheik hasn't changed.

I think that the PM guide should focus on the new stuff that PM Sheik can do. RAR Bairs, Poof pressure (I can't seem to do this consistently, though), Proper use of throw mix-ups, crawl, etc.

But if you need any help, send me a message or something I'd like to make this board more active again!

I certainly will. With the coming weeks im going to make sure I use as much accurate info to cover basic things, and I might update the guide to have more things pertaining specifically to PM sheik. I was going to just make it a fundamental "A-B-C" kind of thing, but the more I break down each bit of info, I can definitely tell you that I'm a lot more interested in making thing a more in-depth guide. It'll also help me learn more about Sheik, and the game with the information ill hopefully compile with the help of other players.

 

[DMG]

I think Sheik Chain glitch from Brawl is still in PM. Can anyone reliably reproduce it in PM? It would be a huge thing for her meta if it ever got reliable imo

http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-chain-jacket.366831/

I made a thread asking about it awhile ago, got some info but not enough conclusive

 

[Tarul]

I think Sheik Chain glitch from Brawl is still in PM. Can anyone reliably reproduce it in PM? It would be a huge thing for her meta if it ever got reliable imo

http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-chain-jacket.366831/

I made a thread asking about it awhile ago, got some info but not enough conclusive

It still exists, but you can crash the game if you mess it up by a frame. In other words, it's not worth risking losing the entire match lol. Sorry, it will only crash the game if you don't use 3 moves before chain-jacketing. It's a 1 frame window, so it's fairly tight. You have to throw out the chain at the top of Sheik's short hop window.

GFY of chain jacket in action in 3.6 thanks to Zhime: http://gfycat.com/HeftyFickleAzurevase

 

[DMG]

Wat

I remember Brawl crashing if you didn't have hitboxes loaded yet, but why does it crash if you're a frame off? That sounds odd.

 

[Tarul]

You're correct; sorry, got a bit mixed up. I edited my post in case anyone looks at this in the future.

 

[DMG]

Ok cool. That's a pretty easy condition to fulfill to stop any freezes. Probably still some inherent risk with a glitch that janky, but it might be worth practicing.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Thank you for the input on this tool. I'm actually going to be practicing/

 

[Denjinpachi]

the tech that you guys have mentioned* I want to study it, and also bring in source video play of sheiks performing examples of what i going to put into the game.

 

[Tarul]

It's situational, but it definitely seems to have its uses. While grabbing ledge -> rising aerial seems optimal, down -smash -> chain jacket seems good at edge guarding certain low recoveries.

I'd like to see if it's viable against Squirtle, Pikachu, and G&W.

 

[HelloAxi]

Chain jacket requires a move with three hitboxes or more, not three moves. Nair, for instance, has three red circles in debug mode indicating that it has three hitboxes. Fair only has one though. That's what determines the crash. Is it practical? No. It's a single frame and it's very difficult to find which one because you can't do it frame by frame in debug. However I believe unheard it was frame 22 of her shorthop which is exactly halfway through her jump and the peak (when she tucks). I've done it maybe twice ever and that was among 40 or so attempts.
Anyways.
Regarding the guide this is pretty good for explaining basics. You should go into Up smash in regards to DACUS. In my play style I've almost completely removed dash attacking as Dacus is far more favorable. It does more damage, hits twice (for 34% I think), kills early, has more hitstun and is safer than dash attack. On some characters with less traction it is safe on shield if both hits connect, as it pushes you both far away. I've used it to be totally safe on a Marth.
Anyways, check it out, end the reign of the dumb sheik.
Oh yeah and there is a really solid approach using aerial needles into dacus.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Chain jacket requires a move with three hitboxes or more, not three moves. Nair, for instance, has three red circles in debug mode indicating that it has three hitboxes. Fair only has one though. That's what determines the crash. Is it practical? No. It's a single frame and it's very difficult to find which one because you can't do it frame by frame in debug. However I believe unheard it was frame 22 of her shorthop which is exactly halfway through her jump and the peak (when she tucks). I've done it maybe twice ever and that was among 40 or so attempts.
Anyways.
Regarding the guide this is pretty good for explaining basics. You should go into Up smash in regards to DACUS. In my play style I've almost completely removed dash attacking as Dacus is far more favorable. It does more damage, hits twice (for 34% I think), kills early, has more hitstun and is safer than dash attack. On some characters with less traction it is safe on shield if both hits connect, as it pushes you both far away. I've used it to be totally safe on a Marth.
Anyways, check it out, end the reign of the dumb sheik.
Oh yeah and there is a really solid approach using aerial needles into dacus.

Ill be sure to make some note on DACUS for up-smashing, do you have a reference in which i could give a more direct set of info on how to perform it? I'm pretty shaky on it, and wouldn't wanna misdirect anyone on a tech that can help them improve.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Actually, another idea, would a Miscellaneous section also be appropriate for the types of tech, and their potential uses to be posted in? i kind of want to keep the general move list and their uses somewhat separated from the tech specific things like RAR, DACUS, and things to that affect. Maybe explaining how each specifically benefit Sheik and go from there?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Actually, another idea, would a Miscellaneous section also be appropriate for the types of tech, and their potential uses to be posted in? i kind of want to keep the general move list and their uses somewhat separated from the tech specific things like RAR, DACUS, and things to that affect. Maybe explaining how each specifically benefit Sheik and go from there?

Check out this Fox Melee Guide
http://smashboards.com/guides/guide-to-ace-arwing-pilot-fox-mccloud-updated-for-2015.100/

It's very comprehensive and has nice structure you could adapt to your guide.

 

[HelloAxi]

Ill be sure to make some note on DACUS for up-smashing, do you have a reference in which i could give a more direct set of info on how to perform it? I'm pretty shaky on it, and wouldn't wanna misdirect anyone on a tech that can help them improve.

Dash, press down on the c stick, and up on the directional stick at the same time. Then within 6 frames press z. It's noticeable on sheik and very apparent on characters like Lucas, gw, and rob, if you need practice. If you are dash attacking you need to press z sooner, if you grab you are pressing z too early. Idk where guides are though.

 

[Tarul]

I forgot to add- b-reversing needles is pretty great. It gives you just enough horizontal mobility to give you a mixup between turn-around needles and b-reverse needles. I use this all the time to punish over-zealous approaches while running away, since Sheik doesn't exactly have a great dash dance.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Would adding fundamental examples from melee also be justified in this guide? aside from game specific tech, sheik is relatively the same. Her game plan hasn't drastically changed. Maybe linking edge guarding, and other example videos feat. KK, Shroomed, M2K, etc?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Would adding fundamental examples from melee also be justified in this guide? aside from game specific tech, sheik is relatively the same. Her game plan hasn't drastically changed. Maybe linking edge guarding, and other example videos feat. KK, Shroomed, M2K, etc?

I don't believe it would matter much since it's a guide about fundamentals. If it's explained well there shouldn't be much of an issue.

 

[Denjinpachi]

I figured as much, just didn't want anyone questioning what's in the guide because im mixing info from two games.

 

[Tarul]

I've read most of the guide, and I'd like to add some things:

• D-tilt
  • D-tilt can be pretty useful due to Sheik's amazing crouch. Sheik's crouch allows her to dodge many a grab and attack, and d-tilt is a great combo starter. For example, Falcon can't grab a crouching Sheik, and at mid percents, d-tilts leads to more tilts or aerials
  • This move can also be used for punishing opponents that missed their tech, since jab tends to miss skinny enemies.
• Dash attack
  • This move is commonly used to cover the tech-chase after d-throw if you react poorly (e.g. you jabbed thinking they'd miss the tech).
• D-smash
  • D-smash is one of Sheik's anti-CC moves (useful above 20%). Run -> wavedash/crouch -> d-smash is pretty great.
    
  • D-smash is great at punishing spot-dodges. This is especially useful when trying to get an opponent off stage after tech-chasing *cough* spacies *cough*
• Up-smash
  • If a floatie DIs Sheik's throws at high percents (>110% (?)), then DACUS can him/her.
  • DACUS can be used in place of dash-attack. While it is slower (frame 10 vs. frame 5), it hits more upward, is generally safer, and can also lead to combos (Credits to HelloAxi for opening my eyes)
  • At high percents against floaties, jab -> DACUS is a thing
• Dair
  • Dair is great for punishing tether characters or characters with lots of end lag after their recovery (Sheik)
• Up-air
  • Shield-drop up-air is one of your best out-of-shield options against opponents when you're on the same platform. Not only does it poke shields, but because you're already falling to the ground, it leads to more follow-ups.

Seems good so far Excited to see what you're going to do with needles, as that's where a decent part of Sheik's finesse comes from.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Ill definitely be sure to edit more of the guide with this information. Ill be into the special moves here soon, so ill see if i can do needles justice. Im wondering if i should just explain the full plan with each move under each respective description, or explain what move best fits what situation in another section. (OoS options, recovery punishes, body/weight combo follow ups etc.) Definitely becoming more than a "fundamental outline" lol. Im excited to keep working.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

You may also wanna add:

F-Tilt
- Is REALLY good when spaced well. There isn't much a person can do when hit with a well spaced F-Tilt hit or blocked.

F-Smash
- Really useful against CC

D-Smash
- Is invulnerable on startup (w/o charging). This makes it a great counter move for most unsafe approaches.

 

[Denjinpachi]

I thought the gap between the two hits on F-Smash was punishable?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I thought the gap between the two hits on F-Smash was punishable?

On block more than likely. Less likely on hit.

 

[Denjinpachi]

On block more than likely. Less likely on hit.

You think it could still get beat out by like Mario CC D-Smash even on hit? Like at 0 or near lower Percent?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

You think it could still get beat out by like Mario CC D-Smash even on hit? Like at 0 or near lower Percent?

Test it out for yourself :D

 

[Denjinpachi]

Yeah, she can still be punished in between hits on some moves for sure. but that's on fast starting moves, and also below like 20 percent it seems. But once she has damage built up, its already hard to CC hits anyway, so its good vs. damaged opponents that like to CC.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Also, could someone verify if it true that a new adjustment to the ledge was that after a certain amount of regrabs, you no longer gain invulnerability? I'm not sure where I heard or read this, but wanted to be sure.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Also, could someone verify if it true that a new adjustment to the ledge was that after a certain amount of regrabs, you no longer gain invulnerability? I'm not sure where I heard or read this, but wanted to be sure.

As of 3.5, you get 5 invincible ledgegrabs before you need to land on the stage. If you grab the ledge a 6th time without touching the stage or a platform, you will not get invincibility.

 

[Denjinpachi]

As of 3.5, you get 5 invincible ledgegrabs before you need to land on the stage. If you grab the ledge a 6th time without touching the stage or a platform, you will not get invincibility.

Thank you very much!

 

[Denjinpachi]

I'm a little unsure of what other PM specific tech that really applied usefully to Sheik. I'm already covering RAR, and DACUS. is there anything else im missing? I covered each moves potential use, so I think it'd be redundant to add a combo, or edge guard section. Should I just move to a Match Up section?

 

[HelloAxi]

I thought of more to add. So when I play I have a hard time in neutral. That's just a me problem. But I have to "traps" that I abuse to get ups in neutral. I imagine at higher level play they'll get you some decent openings if used sparingly. So as I'm dash dancing about I will spontaneously stop and jump straight up (typically near center stage if I can). On the way up I charge needles. At this point your opponent had a choice to make. Of they go in you toss needles and do what you will. I like to dacus in or grab. This works very, very well unless they go high which isn't their first choice, normally. It's a great mix-up in neutral.
My second trap typically involves platforms. You wait below one and as soon as the opponent is in range you wave land onto the platform and slide off with a very low back air. It auto cancels and you can get a grab off of it at zero on most characters. I'm not sure if this is a true combo bit it sure works quite a bit. Obviously cc can beat it but it's blindingly fast.
Wave land back air is amazing no matter what. Sheik actually has great options with a platform above her.

 

[Denjinpachi]

I can see how the platform play can be beneficial when used spontaneously. But it seems a little too situational to make these uses a deadset piece of information for the guide, because all of the platform play you mentioned is kind of read or reaction based. Which would be a good piece of information for informative use of stage knowledge, and positioning. You should definitely make a thread on platform options with sheik. If you can create more concrete options on the platform for her, ill gladly add it though.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Sorry its been a while since I have updated the guide. I'm wondering, is where the guide is at fundamentally good enough to have as is, or should I add more to just make it a full guide overall for Sheik? I kinda wanted something to help kick start new players, but the more information the better right?

 

[HelloAxi]

Sorry its been a while since I have updated the guide. I'm wondering, is where the guide is at fundamentally good enough to have as is, or should I add more to just make it a full guide overall for Sheik? I kinda wanted something to help kick start new players, but the more information the better right?

If it's not too much work, in your opinion, make it a full guide. This move section is excellent but that only helps players get so far. The harder bits like what to sonic neutral or good mixups are the parts that especially elude new players.