The "Good" Life

[Sandy]

Go to school, study hard, get good grades, get into college, lather, rinse, repeat, get a "good" job, get a house in the suburbs, get married, have kids, move to Florida and retire....

Can anybody tell me why society is so obsessed with this formula for a "perfect life," why it looks upon the high-school drop out who very much enjoys his life (even though he doesn't wear a suit to a monotonous 9-to-5 job) as if he is a piece of trash who has wasted his very existence? I don't understand it, really. I don't get why the concept of a "wasted life" even exists. If somebody (be it a pothead, crackhead, or what have you) enjoys their life, who is anybody else to look down upon them for "wasting" it? Why is the cashier at a retail store regarded as "less successful" than a millionaire businessman? What good is money, what good is an education, if it subjectively brings you no more joy than sitting around and smoking pot on your free time? Can anybody give me a reasoned, logical answer to that?

 

[Falco&Victory]

Because, like or not, America is becoming stupider by the year.

Our society is built on hard-laborers, and now that immigrants are taking those jobs those raised with an education have more sophisticated jobs to fulfill. You're a man of faith, I believe, and you should know slot is a sin. As is gluttony, envy, etc. Smart people manage the laborers, they stop mistakes from being made. If suddenly less pressure was put on kids to succeed, suddenly America would become even stupider. Of course, no child left behind isn't helping(give a boost to the hopeless kids at the cost of intelligent student's education), but America is serious about its education.

And when is the government going to accept people are born with their IQ, some people are unteachable.

 

[Xsyven]

Go to school, study hard, get good grades, get into college, lather, rinse, repeat, get a "good" job, get a house in the suburbs, get married, have kids, move to Florida and retire....

Can anybody tell me why society is so obsessed with this formula for a "perfect life," why it looks upon the high-school drop out who very much enjoys his life (even though he doesn't wear a suit to a monotonous 9-to-5 job) as if he is a piece of trash who has wasted his very existence? I don't understand it, really. I don't get why the concept of a "wasted life" even exists. If somebody (be it a pothead, crackhead, or what have you) enjoys their life, who is anybody else to look down upon them for "wasting" it? Why is the cashier at a retail store regarded as "less successful" than a millionaire businessman? What good is money, what good is an education, if it subjectively brings you no more joy than sitting around and smoking pot on your free time? Can anybody give me a reasoned, logical answer to that?

Though I really shouldn't judge people, I'd have to say that I'm guilty of doing such. When I see someone homeless sleeping on the streets, it blows my mind. How could anyone stoop that low? I don't think they understand the joys of life when they spend thiers begging for money to buy momentary happiness by drowning their sorrows in alchohol.

The "Perfect Life" isn't about becoming a millionaire. It's about parents that want their children to have a happy life. They don't want bad things to happen to them. That's why youth has been taught "go to college", generation after generation. Some parents want kids to have a good life, like they did-- others don't want their kids to make the same mistakes they did.

Though there are some exceptions, the "I'm rich, you're not, you fail at life" attitude is what 'losers' use as an excuse to hate those richer than them-- when most people just live their lives, day to day, being happy, and getting work done.

Getting work done makes society run smoother. If you're not working, you're nothing but a burdon.

 

[Blackadder]

Though I really shouldn't judge people, I'd have to say that I'm guilty of doing such. When I see someone homeless sleeping on the streets, it blows my mind. How could anyone stoop that low?

That's pretty nasty, really.
What if they were brought up into a life of poverty?
There are many possible things that may have forced them to "Stoop that low".

While some may have made really stupid choices in there youth, I think those people need to be pitied, and helped if possible.

It really may not always be there fault.

Now, for the topic at hand itself; The thing is...well, a pothead is just looked down apon because he is just seen as useless to society.
It's the way it works really, if you don't follow the general idea of "The perfect life" you suck. It's just what people think in general, but maybe, like homophobia, and racism, it'll just go one day.

 

[Xsyven]

That's pretty nasty, really.
What if they were brought up into a life of poverty?
There are many possible things that may have forced them to "Stoop that low".

While some may have made really stupid choices in there youth, I think those people need to be pitied, and helped if possible.

There are some exceptions, but seriously-- if they were brought up into the life of poverty, then it was their parents' fault for not being a good working citizen. It just furthers the point to work that miserable 9 to 5. They may enjoy their life of slothfulness, but if it means ruining the life of their children, then it's just not a good option.

I do pity them. And the government does help them. It's just a bad thing that they don't pity or help themselves.

 

[Blackadder]

There are some exceptions, but seriously-- if they were brought up into the life of poverty, then it was their parents' fault for not being a good working citizen. It just furthers the point to work that miserable 9 to 5. They may enjoy their life of slothfulness, but if it means ruining the life of their children, then it's just not a good option.

I do pity them. And the government does help them. It's just a bad thing that they don't pity or help themselves.

Pity themselves? I imagine they do greatly, it would be hard not to if you wake up on a daily basis to a life with no money or work.

And they do try to help themselves, greatly. Everyday they have to go off and find whatever food they can find, and sometimes even more to support friends or family, to help themselves and others. And while the government does help, they hardly walk around and hand out a house and a fat wad of cash to every homeless guy they see, that's obviously impossible, but the rules and such of helping them have been known to be (Often) to strict, limiting the people they help greatly.

I just think you shouldn’t pass judgment on these people.
I know a lot of people assume "If you have money, you have worked hard, and are a good person" but that's often not that case, especialy for these people.

 

[RDK]

Though I really shouldn't judge people, I'd have to say that I'm guilty of doing such. When I see someone homeless sleeping on the streets, it blows my mind. How could anyone stoop that low? I don't think they understand the joys of life when they spend thiers begging for money to buy momentary happiness by drowning their sorrows in alchohol.

There are some exceptions, but seriously-- if they were brought up into the life of poverty, then it was their parents' fault for not being a good working citizen. It just furthers the point to work that miserable 9 to 5. They may enjoy their life of slothfulness, but if it means ruining the life of their children, then it's just not a good option.

I do pity them. And the government does help them. It's just a bad thing that they don't pity or help themselves.

^ ENORMOUS stereotype.

How can you lump every homeless person into the category of "they're poor because they're not hard workers and they just beg for money all day"? That's completely ridiculous.

Most people of lower income have probably worked harder than you ever have in your entire life. They have to in order to survive.

And the thing about their parents being lazy and not working hard? That's just laughable also. Yes, that may be the case in some situations--but they could have been brought up in poverty also, and it's a very hard circle to break.

I'd like to see you try it some time.

Normally, I wouldn't take this side in this particular debate, but Xsyven's post is so ignorant that I had to say something.

 

[lonejedi]

That's pretty nasty, really.
What if they were brought up into a life of poverty?
There are many possible things that may have forced them to "Stoop that low".

While some may have made really stupid choices in there youth, I think those people need to be pitied, and helped if possible.

It really may not always be there fault.

Now, for the topic at hand itself; The thing is...well, a pothead is just looked down apon because he is just seen as useless to society.
It's the way it works really, if you don't follow the general idea of "The perfect life" you suck. It's just what people think in general, but maybe, like homophobia, and racism, it'll just go one day.

I'd do a multi-quote, but I'm lazy. Honestly, don't play people being poor because of their parents, worst possible explanation ever. Everyone has free will, everyone has an opportunity to grow, everyone has an opportunity to make a good living. Sure their parents might be a bad example. But schooling is free, and anyone can can apply them self.

It's bad choices in schooling that lead someone to being on welfare, and begging in the streets.

A prime personal example is of a friend I know. He's lives in an appartment, under a single-parent his mom. But the kid excells, he doesn't let his surroundings effect him, and he's on the right road. Don't make excuses for people. I can understand that some people work lots of hours for small pay, but that is really their fault. I recommend the movie Pursuit of Happyness to anyone who doubts me.

 

[Xsyven]

^ ENORMOUS stereotype.

That's another bad side to me. I believe in stereotypes. I believe that they're bad to label on people I don't know, but here, we're talking about poor people as a whole. Most poor people are bad workers. Hard to swallow?

Everyone grows up with the same opportunities. Public schools are free, the government grants money for students with poor families to pay for college.

I said there were some exceptions, ie disabilities, and in some cases, extremely bad luck, but being raised in poverty is no excuse to not go to schoool.

I'm a first generation college student, meaning neither of my parents graduated college. I go to college for free due to Pell grants. Every low-income student is granted one.

Normally, I wouldn't take this side in this particular debate, but Xsyven's post is so ignorant that I had to say something.

No good debate comes from a post that takes both sides!

 

[Falco&Victory]

Xsyven does have a point, every who is healthy and fit has the same opportunities, some people just have a harder path to walk, so to say. In the end, don't judge someone by their career, because every job needs someone to fulfill it(and most people here wouldn't last a month as a physical laborer. I would have, but I got pneumonia )

Instead, judge people on how they persevered towards their career goals. Again, you're born with your IQ, some people just don't physically have enough potential, it's not their fault.

 

[Blackadder]

@Lonejedi

Um...I was ON the side you talked about?
I think you should have quoted Xsyven if you wanted to say that stuff..coz I'mon your side here man, lulz.

Anyways, I agree with Darkstar with Xsy being to biased towards that whole "Group" of poor people. The thing is, you REALLY have no idea how they got to where they are now. To make any judgement, I think you should ask them what happend, what it's like, or even try to live a week like them.

I'm sure you'll find that theres more to the story than you see.

 

[RDK]

Black, I think he accidentally quoted one of your posts instead of Xsyven's.

And again, Xsyven, you shouldn't judge people by their social status. Judge people by their actions, thoughts, and beliefs.

That's another bad side to me. I believe in stereotypes. I believe that they're bad to label on people I don't know, but here, we're talking about poor people as a whole. Most poor people are bad workers. Hard to swallow?

I, too, believe in stereotypes to an extent. But you're talking like the entire population of homeless people are lazy slackers who have no place in society when that's completely untrue.

 

[OnyxVulpine]

I believe that the perfect life is whatever a person wants it to be. And a majority of people want their life to be like that in pretty much that order.

Getting through life without problems, having everything planned and set out...

To tell you the truth, I do look down on some people a bit when they don't plan to go to college and even try to get somewhere that is considered good. I mean, if they want to finish high school and work in fast food their entire life, be a taxi driver, a department store manager. Thats fine.

But when your a child you want to become something like an astronaut etc. Even though when your that young you don't know what it takes to do things like that, you still want to become one I don't think you should give up.

When people talk about the perfect life, even if there are things in between that will get in your way. Getting a good job and setting your kids up for a better life than you had for yourself, I think thats what a perfect life is, or thats what I feel it is right now.

-Onyx

 

[WFL]

I'm sort of spoiled when it comes to talking with people about having to work had everyday just to live. In the spot I'm in right now in my life I'm just trying to get good grades, go to a good engineering school, and try to set up a life with a family in the suburbs just like stated in the first post described, but I'm going to try to do it doing something I like to do which I thank my parents for giving me a good education, home, etc.

When I see someone that is homeless on the streets, or someone in a bad neighborhood I try not to judge or try and figure out how they got there. I try to just think it's something that they couldn't control and thats how the world works, but in reality some people aren't as smart as others or don't have that drive to try and get there name out there trying to get a job. Sure, a lot of the time people that are homeless weren't given any opportunity, but I see it as they didn't have the necessary parenting/upbringing that would help them find that job that would give them the opportunity to have a better life.

I'm just hoping that I can have that good life and I'm happy that I was one of those lucky people to be born healthy and hopefully life a fulfilling life.

 

[AltF4]

No Johns, people.

You're the one in control of your life. Nobody else. If your life isn't everything it could be, then it's your fault for not getting it. Don't blame society, don't blame your lower middle class upbringing. It is never too late to clean yourself up, get at least a mild education, and work your way up the ladder.

I'm an Engineer in college right now, and I can't even begin to tell you how many friends I know that started out with nothing. Nothing. They grew up in India, and flew to America with no money to their name. Or China, etc...

Oh, and people that say "I'm happy with my life working at Walmart for minimum wage. Don't judge me." are lying. You're not happy. You just don't want to admit that you're jealous of those with more work ethic to get themselves out of a bad situation.

 

[Blackadder]

Oh, and people that say "I'm happy with my life working at Walmart for minimum wage. Don't judge me." are lying. You're not happy.

Ehh, I know of a few people that work at a K-Mart store, but there happy.
Some have everything they ever really wanted in life;
Enough money to live, a girlfriend, a neat littlehouse (Or apartment) and a car, and great friends. You can't see into these peoples minds here, you have no idea at all how they feel about there life.

But I know a few, and they seem jolly happy.Some people just don't want to become a scientest at NASA, some would just rather...well, "chill" and go with life as it is to them.
There isn't anything that wrong with those ideas is there?

I know I myself will be going to acting college, and plan on becoming an actor (If I'm lucky) but I don't judge the people that just say "Know what, I just want a beer, a car, a TV, a job, and a girl."

But I myself am pretty laid back, and have a fair few of those "Bad lifestyle" things in my life, but I'm pretty cool about it.

 

[Deleted member]

The ignorance in this thread is astounding.

Getting work done makes society run smoother. If you're not working, you're nothing but a burdon.

Oh man.

First of all, I'd like to know why you think work is productive. Then, I'd like you to define "productive".

The first request may or may not be obvious. The second, however, is where you are probably wrong - if you think that non-workers are burdens on society, you are an ignorant self-righteous idiot.

The OP brings up a good point - why is a "successful" life better than a life of "nothing"? It's not.
The two are not comparable. They are lifestyles. Difference in opinion.

If you enjoy doing "nothing", an example that teenagers that can relate to would be..

sleeping in till 4 in the afternoon on a Summer Sunday...

then who is to tell you that you're "wasting" your time? I've had my mom and dad tell me that I'm wasting my day after sleeping that long. I usually stay up late, like 4-5-6 AM, because I love the night. Not many people are around, and I can do my best thinking and writing, like right now. Are they not also guilty of wasting their night? It's a very peaceful time to relax. It's nearly 3 as I write this, not a sound in the house. Bliss.

It's probably a waste of time if you had something that needed to be done. But if you're free as a bird and you want to sleep more, then who's to judge you? I'm sure everyone has had someone criticize them for sleeping in late and "wasting" their day. Am I right?

Anyway, Xsyven, I do not have a job. Am I a burden? Do I actually bring down your silly little "society"? Because if you think having a job being a drone from 9-5 all day is one of the only ways to be productive then I laugh at you. Society is bull****. Walk down a busy street one day and look at all the businessmen running off to their silly cubicle jobs and ask yourself if that means anything in the end. Is money everything? It unfortunately is to the majority, which is all that matters. That's why I hope to strike it rich one day, then sit back and do whatever the **** I want, and laugh at the people governed by some invisible force known as time.

Yes, I am a future hedonist. If I become rich, there's no way in hell I'm working if I can live extravagantly the rest of my life.

You better hope that your sense of accomplishment from working as a burger flipper makes you happy in the end too, if you criticize a fantasy life of doing "nothing" and forever pursuing pleasure.

I'll bet you'd be jealous.

Life is what you make of it. If you decide that writing is your passion, and you want to write for a living, then who is to tell you that you're taking a risk? You may or may not make much money, but you're sure as hell going to enjoy life a lot better doing what you love.

Also..tell this to people who criticize those who sleep late:

"I'll have you know that while you were out for a nice morning walk, I was slaying an evil dragon that was burninating the countryside, WHILE rescuing the princess. If that's not productive, then I don't know what is."

Do what you like.

Like what you do.

Life is good.

Spoiler

Owned?

 

[Blackadder]

Spoiler

Not just owned, Pwnd.

As they say.

I agree FULLY with you.
His point stands darn high in my view. Life is whatever the **** you want it to be, and if you don't become a Buisness man, so what? Is it going to have such a big impact on society? No, but you at least get to be happy.

Life is what you make it, as the guy above me said.
Live it, love it.

 

[Xsyven]

There's nothing wrong with staying up late.



Anyway, onto your questions.

First of all, I'd like to know why you think work is productive. Then, I'd like you to define "productive".

Alright, my lazy friend. You ask why I think work is productive? Let's see. What happens if absolutely everyone decided to stop working at the same time? Society crumbles into non-exsistance, omg. Thanks to working, life as you know and take for granted is possible. My definition of "productive" is: "Anything that helps the continuation and bettering of something." In this case, working helps and betters society.

Anyway, Xsyven, I do not have a job. Am I a burden? Do I actually bring down your silly little "society"? Because if you think having a job being a drone from 9-5 all day is one of the only ways to be productive then I laugh at you. Society is bull****. Walk down a busy street one day and look at all the businessmen running off to their silly cubicle jobs and ask yourself if that means anything in the end. Is money everything? It unfortunately is to the majority, which is all that matters. That's why I hope to strike it rich one day, then sit back and do whatever the **** I want, and laugh at the people governed by some invisible force known as time.

Well, you're certainly not helping anyone out, that's for sure. And sorry, but you think I'm ignorant? You basically just slapped humanity in the face by saying "I won't contribute to soceity, I'll just sit back, become poor, spend all my welfare money on lottery tickets, and laugh at you while doing so. Life is a joke, and as long as I'm happy, I don't care what happens to anyone else." Awesome lifestyle, man. Ignorance is bliss.

I have to agree with you on one thing though. If for some reason, I strike it rich, There's no way in hell I'm working. They take enough out of my winnings for taxes. But until then, I'll work my *** off to bring my (futre) wife and children the money they need. They deserve a good life.

As I said before, ignorance is bliss, Delorted. But for once, open your eyes and look at the real world. Life isn't easy. Get over it, and stop being such a "self-righteous idiot."

 

[Deleted member]

There's nothing wrong with staying up late.

To many people there is. You are a hypocrite.

Alright, my lazy friend. You ask why I think work is productive? Let's see. What happens if absolutely everyone decided to stop working at the same time? Society crumbles into non-exsistance, omg.

I'd love to see that.

Thanks to working, life as you know and take for granted is possible.

What makes you think I take my life for granted? This is why I call you overly smug, you think not working makes me a waste of air

My definition of "productive" is: "Anything that helps the continuation and bettering of something."

Does making myself happy fit your description of productive then? It helps me carry on and betters myself.

In this case, working helps and betters society.

I will let this slide.

Well, you're certainly not helping anyone out, that's for sure.

Say I become rich. Does spending money not help the economy to better your "society"? If I'm spending money, it's just as good as working, is it not? If nobody spent money, "society crumbles into non-existence, omg." You talk like you took a brief course in Economics and failed miserably, or just weren't paying attention.

And sorry, but you think I'm ignorant? You basically just slapped humanity in the face by saying "I won't contribute to soceity, I'll just sit back, become poor, spend all my welfare money on lottery tickets, and laugh at you while doing so. Life is a joke, and as long as I'm happy, I don't care what happens to anyone else." Awesome lifestyle, man. Ignorance is bliss.

This is the real nugget of dumb right here.


Yes, you are the ignorant one. First of all, I've edited your quote to take out your assumed negative, below:

You basically just slapped humanity in the face by saying "I'll just sit back, spend my money, and enjoy my life. Life is short, and as long as I'm happy, I don't have a bad life." Awesome lifestyle, man. Ignorance is bliss.

^ That's what I implied. I am not against working you fool. If you feel like working then go ahead. But while I tolerate your wanting to work, you had better tolerate someone's not wanting to work, if that is what they choose to do in life. You are so naive, can you not see that I'm being rhetorical here? You continue to criticize lifestyles that you think are inferior to yours simply because in the one rhetorical scenario, you have a job and I don't. Way to go.

I have to agree with you on one thing though. If for some reason, I strike it rich, There's no way in hell I'm working. They take enough out of my winnings for taxes. But until then, I'll work my *** off to bring my (futre) wife and children the money they need. They deserve a good life.

Wow. And then you come bursting out of the gates with a quote filled with contradiction. By your logic, which you've used to criticize me earlier, you are being a sponge in that lifestyle! Clearly a sponge has a worse life than a working man. But no, you agree with me. I've been saying this the entire time. I didn't even see this quote till I started responding. Why am I responding to you when you agree with me?

As I said before, ignorance is bliss, Delorted. But for once, open your eyes and look at the real world. Life isn't easy. Get over it, and stop being such a "self-righteous idiot."

I'll get right on that.

 

[Xsyven]

You read every sentence as a sentence by itself and not as a paragraph as a whole.

Try again.

To many people there is. You are a hypocrite.

I'm a hypocrite for not thinking that staying up is bad? Did I say it was? I didn't, so I'm not.

I'd love to see that.

Please tell me what you think would happen if everyone stopped going to work. I need a good laugh.

What makes you think I take my life for granted?

You don't take your life for granted, you take society for granted.

Does making myself happy fit your description of productive then? It helps me carry on and betters myself.

I'll admit that I went a bit off track here. I'm not arguing as to what makes you happy, I'm arguing as to why people pressure kids today to go to college and work for a living.

Say I become rich.

Like that'll happen, hippie.

Does spending money not help the economy to better your "society"? If I'm spending money, it's just as good as working, is it not? If nobody spent money, "society crumbles into non-existence, omg." You talk like you took a brief course in Economics and failed miserably, or just weren't paying attention.

Where are you getting this money to spend? Welfare? Working class tax payer's hard earned cash?

This is the real nugget of dumb right here.

omg, ur so demeaning and scary

That's what I implied. I am not against working you fool. If you feel like working then go ahead. But while I tolerate your wanting to work, you had better tolerate someone's not wanting to work, if that is what they choose to do in life. You are so naive, can you not see that I'm being rhetorical here? You continue to criticize lifestyles that you think are inferior to yours simply because in the one rhetorical scenario, you have a job and I don't. Way to go.

I think we're both debating on different things here. I'm trying to explain as to why society puts pressure on people to live the good life-- you're arguing that being a bum is a good life, as long as your happy.

Wow. And then you come bursting out of the gates with a quote filled with contradiction. By your logic, which you've used to criticize me earlier, you are being a sponge in that lifestyle! Clearly a sponge has a worse life than a working man. But no, you agree with me. I've been saying this the entire time. I didn't even see this quote till I started responding. Why am I responding to you when you agree with me?

This was me agreeing with you-- that if you already have the good life, why work for it?



Anyway, you're not exactly helping society for not working-- but yeah, you can be happy by being a bum.

 

[Falco&Victory]

Hmm, hard to imagine I'm still a temp debater and Xsyven isn't. The point is, not working doesn't make you a drag on society. Being homeless does.

If you work and are happy, you have the good life. Even sewage workers, no, especially sewage workers help us live in peace(for the most part). Every job has its place for better or for worse.

DeLoRtEd1 is right, even if he did take some sentences out of context. But, Xysven, you're kind of prejudice IMO.

 

[Blackadder]

Hmm, hard to imagine I'm still a temp debater and Xsyven isn't. The point is, not working doesn't make you a drag on society. Being homeless does.

If you work and are happy, you have the good life. Even sewage workers, no, especially sewage workers help us live in peace(for the most part). Every job has its place for better or for worse.

DeLoRtEd1 is right, even if he did take some sentences out of context. But, Xysven, you're kind of prejudice IMO.

Agreed, generaly.
I don't feel HOMELESS people are a drag on society, however. Why is it we look down on them so?
I really just think they need to be helped…often it’s not there fault, and who are we to say “You have no house, no food, and a dead family! Stop being such a drag to the rest of us!”
It really is a cold world at times, but maybe I’m the silly naïve one here?

 

[Falco&Victory]

Agreed, generaly.
I don't feel HOMELESS people are a drag on society, however. Why is it we look down on them so?
I really just think they need to be helped…often it’s not there fault, and who are we to say “You have no house, no food, and a dead family! Stop being such a drag to the rest of us!”
It really is a cold world at times, but maybe I’m the silly naïve one here?

Tacoma just spent millions in tax payer dollars to build apartments for the homeless, and now they have extra apartments and extra money they're going to spend on education or something(which was NOT mentioned in the bill that passed). And hawaii has a huge homeless problem, they are sleeping on the beach and stealing food.

But, yeah, am I weird when I'm drunk?

 

[Deleted member]

I'm a hypocrite for not thinking that staying up is bad? Did I say it was? I didn't, so I'm not.

You're a hypocrite because in this stage of our life, where we probably aren't going to be homeless, sleeping in till 4 PM is the one of the closest things to being a bum as you can get at this age. You're not working, you're sleeping. Yet you don't have a problem with this?

Please tell me what you think would happen if everyone stopped going to work. I need a good laugh.

I'm saying it would make a very interesting movie. Did you laugh when someone proposed the possibility that the world around you is just a computer generated program? Or did you not see the Matrix?

You don't take your life for granted, you take society for granted.

To be honest, I hate the majority of a lot of people, society in general. Your society isn't all what it's cracked up to be. You -are- talking about the same society that thinks it's cute to feed dogs at the dinner table yet we don't feed the homeless? Just because we have a stable economy in North America doesn't mean society is good.

Like that'll happen, hippie.

Sure thing.

Where are you getting this money to spend? Welfare? Working class tax payer's hard earned cash?

It doesn't exactly matter in a rhetorical situation does it?

This was me agreeing with you-- that if you already have the good life, why work for it?

My point exactly. I have a pretty sweet life right now. I'm intelligent, I have a beautiful girlfriend who loves me, I have a large house with a loving family, running water, plenty of food, etc. I could name many blessings that I hope you have yourself. Is this not a good life?

For example. What did you do this summer? Did you work? I'm curious. I was pressured into getting a job this summer very heavily but I still declined, much to my parents' chagrin.

Luckily, I had many ways of making money. For example, I'm good enough at Smash to win local tournaments fairly frequently. This right here has kept me afloat with all the money I needed the past weeks.

I ended up getting to enjoy my summer to the max. Doing whatever I wanted, sleeping whenever I wanted, not having to worry about getting days off, not having to work in general. Was I a bum? I'm on vacation. Am I a bum? I want to know what you think. Because I'm pretty proud of myself that I went the summer without being broke at all, while still not having to work in some degrading uniform during my vacation. Yeah, I lived a very hedonistic lifestyle from June-September. It was pretty sweet. But are you saying this is not a good life?

Anyway, you're not exactly helping society for not working-- but yeah, you can be happy by being a bum.

Forget society. That's not what we're talking about here. If you agree that "bums" can be happy and have equally good lives to successful people, then we're done here.

 

[Xsyven]

Hmm, hard to imagine I'm still a temp debater and Xsyven isn't.

So, do you want me to say?

"People should wooork... but if they don't want to they don't have to... but if they really don't they'll just be poor... but if that's what makes them happy... well, I guess they could..."

I chose a side, and I stuck to it. I'm a bit of an extremist at times, but hey, people are having a fun time arguing with me.

You're a hypocrite because in this stage of our life, where we probably aren't going to be homeless, sleeping in till 4 PM is the one of the closest things to being a bum as you can get at this age. You're not working, you're sleeping. Yet you don't have a problem with this?

What if I work from 4pm to 1am? My company has that shift for Crew Support. (I work at SkyWest Airlines's corperate headquarters.) There's nothing wrong with sleeping in as long as you're working. And if you have a day off, why the hell not? How is sleeping in being a bum when you're still working?

I'm saying it would make a very interesting movie. Did you laugh when someone proposed the possibility that the world around you is just a computer generated program? Or did you not see the Matrix?

I thought the Matrix was cool. Businesses dying and complete anarchy isn't.

To be honest, I hate the majority of a lot of people, society in general. Your society isn't all what it's cracked up to be. You -are- talking about the same society that thinks it's cute to feed dogs at the dinner table yet we don't feed the homeless? Just because we have a stable economy in North America doesn't mean society is good.

Well, on your side of the argument, I'm sure happy being the middle class fella that I am, so who cares?

Sure thing.

It doesn't exactly matter in a rhetorical situation does it?

Ever heard of an ironic response to an unintelligent rhetorical question?

My point exactly. I have a pretty sweet life right now. I'm intelligent, I have a beautiful girlfriend who loves me, I have a large house with a loving family, running water, plenty of food, etc. I could name many blessings that I hope you have yourself. Is this not a good life?

For example. What did you do this summer? Did you work? I'm curious. I was pressured into getting a job this summer very heavily but I still declined, much to my parents' chagrin.

Luckily, I had many ways of making money. For example, I'm good enough at Smash to win local tournaments fairly frequently. This right here has kept me afloat with all the money I needed the past weeks.

I ended up getting to enjoy my summer to the max. Doing whatever I wanted, sleeping whenever I wanted, not having to worry about getting days off, not having to work in general. Was I a bum? I'm on vacation. Am I a bum? I want to know what you think. Because I'm pretty proud of myself that I went the summer without being broke at all, while still not having to work in some degrading uniform during my vacation. Yeah, I lived a very hedonistic lifestyle from June-September. It was pretty sweet. But are you saying this is not a good life?

...

Well, I'm arguing towards the 'real' world. Not parent's house, during summer vacation between freshman and sophomore year of high school. People that are too old to live at mom's house should be working.

And yeah, I did an 8-5 internship at my current company, working for ... free. Got myself some college credit, got me a job afterwards, and it looks awesome on a resume. I'd never do it again though.




As for this topic as a debate, I've decided that this topic just isn't that good. There are way too many 'ifs, ands, and buts' that can change the outlook of every single argument anyone makes.

 

[Delphiki]

This is why I hate the Debate Hall. Why discuss, when you can argue? Way to go, mods. x_x

Anyways, on to the topic.

I feel that somebody should contribute to society. However, this is not done by working 9-5 - that is working for yourself, and before any tries to find my position, that is exactly what I do. Also, by 'society' I do not mean 'the economy of the proletariat'.

And just to clear something else up - economy can never collapse, it can only change. If everyone stopped working a new economy would instantly rise up to replace it - an economy does not have to be based on dollars and coins.

Contribution to the advancement of society is good, stagnation is bad. 9-5 jobs are stagnation (or at least most, I admit the possibility of exception) - whether it's foodservice or a desk job, most do not give opportunity for innovation. Now don't get ahead of me and say that 9-5 workers are unproductive, only their jobs.

So, in summation only things which are permanent and beneficial to the future of society are what should be called 'productive'. Idle work is none of those.


Most people work for their own benefit or for a limited group and stay happy. Is there anything wrong with that? No. But with the opportunity, who would choose to make less people happy? The productive entrepreneur who does what he enjoys may perhaps be the happiest man alive.

 

[Indigo4]

First of all, allow me to mention that this thread is amazing. I finally found someone who agrees with me. Why does this "formula" seem to be the "thing" in america?

Do people do this to "impress" others? I've always felt that there was something wrong with me, because I do not desire these things. I want to live in the suburbs with a decent paying job. I have never desired to marry or have children. I want to adopt. Aren't there enough people in this world without anyone? Why bring more in? I want to be a foster home for abused animals, until they can be adopted out. I want to be a writer on the side. And I pray that when I die, I will ascend to heaven. You would not belive how many people I know who actually cannot belive I do not want a family, and would prefer "this life". It is almost laughable.

I recall reading "Brave New World," and I cannot help but compare it to our own world. Was this what Aldous Huxley was talking about? Think about it: Everyone is a cookie-cutter cut-out. Being different or wanting something out of the norm is shunned. Though America has free speech, fear of alienation and rejection prevents it from being effectivly used.

Why do we go to college, for example? Is it expand our minds? Or is it fear that society will look down upon us, and that we will not be "successful? Why waste your life working hard and getting money, when in 80 or so short years, you perish? It amazes me how hard people try to crawl to the top of societies pile, when it can never be truly reached. What is happiness? Why is it that in the most pampered country in the world, suicide and depression are rampant, yet in third world countries, people smile and are grateful for small blessings?

I guess when it boils down to it, the one thing that makes the "good life" for anyone is priorities. What do you want out of this life? To be "successful?" A family? Money? Fame? I think we all want the same thing, but nobody can seem to find it. Happiness. Where is it hiding? Why do we always try to fill the hole in our heart with other things? It's madness.

Is a miserable millionare better than a happy hobo? Is the college graduate with no direction any happier than the High School Drop out who has a path? It's difficult to say. I try to only worry about my life, and achieving my goals. As long as you are honestly happy, who cares what you do? It only matters to the person doing it: You! ^_^ The Good Life Is What You Make It!

 

[AltF4]

If money doesn't buy happiness, then why do so many poor people want it? The fact is that material possessions do bring people happiness. And in oder to have these things, you need to have money. In order to have money, you need to work. (With extraordinarily few exceptions)

Everyone wants money. Even people who have money want more.

But you see, there's a difference between wanting something and being willing to do what it takes to get it. Everyone wants a million dollars. If you walked up to any person on the street and offered them a million dollars, they'd take it. But why isn't everyone a millionaire? Because not everyone is willing to do what it takes to get a million dollars.

It takes work. A **** lot of hard work. All the millionaires you see on TV are musicians, athletes, etc... These represent only an extremely minute percentage of the total group of wealthy people that worked their entire lives for their money. If you think you can get rich without working, then you've been deluded by watching too much TV. Sorry to say, but you actually have to work to get money.

If you don't want to work, be ready to be poor. Very poor. And guess what? It won't be a pleasurable experience. You'll wish that you didn't have to live in that apartment with the cockroaches coming out of the pluming. You'll wish you could afford to run the air conditioner. You'll wish you had all kinds of things that you could have with money.

And as you sit, destitute, you'll claim that you're "happy" in the situation you're in. But you're not. You just don't want to admit that you wish that you had money, but are too lazy to do anything about it.

Well go ahead. I'll be living in that house up on the hill, sipping on some tea, watching a movie with my amazing girlfriend (whom I've known since high school) on a 46" LCD HDTV.

No life Johns.

It's madness.

Madness? MADNESS?!

 

[Deleted member]

AltF4, if you think that material possessions are the only things in life that make one happy, and you have them, then you have a good life. I agree with you for the most part, because I'd love to be a hedonist the rest of my life and I also want material possessions, but the millionaire and bum can share the same happiness. It's not a john. I only agree with you because I share the same wants. You cannot dismiss other lifestyles that do not have the letters L, C, and D included in them as lesser lives.

Sidebar - I had the first philosophy class of my new year today. The teacher gave us a handout. The two questions that are relevant:

What do you see yourself doing after your education?

My answer - Enjoying life.

What do you see your line of work being?

My answer - My passion.

 

[AltF4]

Hooray Double post. I don't usually do that. Read the next post.

Stop looking here. Go on.














Why are you still reading.

 

[AltF4]

Right, we're talking in generalizations here. Of course there might be some poor guy out there who actually doesn't want money and is happy. There might be some rich guy completely unhappy with all of his wealth.

But they are the vast minority. They are the exception. As a general statement, is is safe to say that happiness increases with wealth.

Material possessions are not accurately described as the only thing that makes one happy, but rather a prerequisite for being happy. The chances of you establishing a loving relationship with a woman while homeless are almost non-existent. Think of how many homeless singles there are as compared to couples.

Note that I mentioned in my ideal description of myself that I was watching a movie with my girlfriend. (We've been together over 5 1/2 years) She is a major influence on my happiness. But I'm not going to be naive and think that my wealth won't change that. She is quite unlikely to stay with me if I decide to be homeless and beg for food for a living.

(At which point you might say, "Yea, but mine will". But no, she won't.)

On somewhat of a side note, I'm just being realistic here. I'm just not sugarcoating any naive ideologies about how "money can't buy happiness". I'll look it up more again later, but I remember seeing a study that tried to find how much the average man's wife is worth to him. Of course nobody would answer the question "how much would you sell your wife for?" But you could measure it by seeing measuring the choices people make that influence their relationships. (Like going to school for engineering decreases the odds of meeting a wife significantly, rather than choosing a degree in art) Anyway, they said that the average man's wife is worth about $100,000 to them per year.

 

[Indigo4]

At the risk of sounding like a cheesy Christmas special, I truly do not believe money always brings happiness. Do not get me wrong, recieving a large sum of money would certainly put a spring in my step. But, as you said yourself, money is rarely something that is given to you, and if it is, you get it through inheritance, or the lotto. But to get the money, sacrifices must be made. Work often gets in the way of personal desires. Those who work hard to get to the top do in fact recieve their money. But family, friends, and personal convictions may have been pushed aside in the process. I look at famous people, and am thankful that I do not have the stress that they do. Again, they have a vast amount of wealth, but at what cost? Going to get a cheeseburger means bodyguards so crazed fans can't kill you, the paparatzzi is in their face, and they are always whisked from one fake group of people to the next. Why do you think drugs and alchohal run rampant in Hollywood? To escape the pain they feel. The sacrafices are truly not worth it in the end.

 

[AltF4]

You're living in a fantasy world. Millionaires are not movie stars or lotto winners. Sure, some are. But how many? Fame and wealth are two totally different things.

Look at this article. It's from last year, but it gets the point across.

Millionaires are people who work hard their whole lives, make smart decisions, and make long term investments. Actors make up a drop in the bucket in these statistics.

And don't kid yourself into thinking that these people are unhappy. There's a reason why everyone would want to be one.

 

[Indigo4]

I don't doubt that they are happy...in a sense. I mean, money doesn't take care of all your problems. And being a millionare is hard work. And it takes a LOT of time, and a LOT of paitence. I'm not sure I'm that commited to such a lifestyle. I guess, like I said before, it all boils down to what you are willing to sacrafice to get something else. I mean, would you be willing to work away 3/4ths of your life, to be assured that the last 1/4th would be golden? Is it worth it? I don't think so. But then again, that's me. It's not laziness, or apathy. It's just my choice.

 

[Falco&Victory]

I saw a statement earlier saying 'money buys happiness', and I must disagree with this to an extent. As a sociology man, I know that almost anyone with a degree in the field would say the same as me, and that's that money only makes you happy up to a certain point, then it's your own personal actions that make a difference.

True happiness comes from many different places. Some prefer hoarding money away with an obsession, some enjoy working hard. Some enjoy just having free time and good friends. My happiness comes from helping my friends out, even if I have a personal disagreement with what they want help with(i'm trying to hook up the girl I have a crush on with an older football player.... what the hell). But this argument is not easy to agree on at all. I want enough money to buy the necessities, some games and sports gear.

 

[Delphiki]

OK, quick survey.

Next time anyone else posts in here, state your income and expenses. Also note what expenses other people pay for you. I think it will help shed some light.

As for me - $700- $800 a month, about 1/4 - 1/3rd goes to expenses. Most of the rest is squandered on friends, family, and myself. Currently I am not paying rent or utilities, but I do buy a lot of the groceries in the house.

I get way more money than I need, so it gets squandered. Unfortunately for me, I'm very lazy and don't save much. I admit I don't have the drive to pursue a better job and get a lot of money.