The good and bad characters at this point (cast spoilers)

[Cronos_Rainbow]

After a few days of playing and having all characters unlocked I'm going to give a short impression on how I feel the characters stack up so far. I won't bother with everyone, though if I feel something needs mention I'll do so.
*Note this analysis is from a competitive players point of view - so think no item stock match*

GREAT
Marth (owning in one game wasn't enough for this guy it seems)
Lucas
Pit
Zero Suit Samus

VERY GOOD
Ike
Olimar
Pokemon Trainer
Falco
Wolf

DISAPPOINTING
Lucario
Dedede

This is how I feel it stands at the current skill level my friends and I have. After playing competitively throughout the life of Melee the new feel is obviously something to get used to.

Some character notes:

Yoshi: Considerably fast in comparison to the rest of the cast. The lack of DJC seems to work against him however. UpB giving some height is both good and bad depending on how you intend to use it.

Fox: Fair is well and truly worth giving a go. Shine is much less fruitful. Bair requires some precision to use now.

Peach: Balanced - I don't think more needs to be said.

Pikachu: Short hopped airs are only worth doing with some characters in this game due to lag you just can't seem to remove. Pikachu seems to have come out last in this race. Bair is multihit and good on a fulljump.

Link: Nair, fair and bair have virtually no lag and work great in short hop situations. Landing killing blows with Link is somewhat difficult, but not at all impossible.

Lucas: Every move is awesome. His psi-magnet is held out infront of him, and when released if inside an opponent serves as an attack somewhat in the realm of a shine hit, though more horizontal. Great combo ability, improved grab range on Ness and overall awesome character.

Marth: Almost exactly as he was in melee. Shield breaker is better at its namesake, and Marvelous combination is faster. Broken so far xD.

Lucario: Takes a lot of work to do well with. He has a counter which serves well when coupled with his projectile, but overall his startup delay is hard to look past when coupled with his mediocre recovery.

Ike: STRONG. His recovery is very good unless he finds himself knocked diagonally downward....though most moves don't do this in Brawl. Forward B when charged has some crazy return ability. Out of the screen? No worries - he makes it with distance to spare. Landing a killing blow is rather difficult once the percent gets up there at first. Upsmash seems the most useful of his smash attacks.

Metaknight: Very good but something feels lacking for the moment. Recovery-wise he has 3 good options, and one other in downB thats short ranged.

Pikmin and Olimar: Played well this is a heck of a character. Damage racks up insanely fast, and the fat purple pikmin have a staggering amount of KO potential even at low percents. Recovery is not the most dependable.

Pit: Great recovery, spammable projectile and a reflecting move all on top of a good ground and air A game. His short hop game isn't the best however, and kills are mainly gained through around 3 moves.

Snake: Totally unorthodox. It'll take some time and getting used to before this guy can be even roughly measured. The fact he requires a lot of setting up to really shine leaves me thinking he's no place in the topmost echelon though.

I hope this is somewhat useful to people. If anyone has questions feel free to ask.

 

[SilintNinjya]

ike? very good? having played the game, i disagree. he is awful for 1v1. he is AMAZING for 2v2...but he is so slow that you cant connect with anything in a 1v1 game. its very easy for a sonic or fox to avoid almost all of his attacks.

 

[iLink]

ike? very good? having played the game, i disagree. he is awful for 1v1. he is AMAZING for 2v2...but he is so slow that you cant connect with anything in a 1v1 game. its very easy for a sonic or fox to avoid almost all of his attacks.

That just means he has a disadvantage against speedy characters, obviously. He looks like he can hold his own against average speed characters.

Is DDD really that bad? He looked rather broken with his chain grabs

 

[mezbomber]

one big question: are Marth and Falco's spikes meteor cancellable?

 

[JohnAnon]

Dedede is comparable to Melee Bowser, only more balanced. He's got RANGE.

And all characters are usable. There aren't characters that are comparable to Pichu.

So shut up.

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

I agree it's hard to connect the initial hits. As it stands I find the best approach to be a shff fair/nair into AA/AAA. Once the opponent is in the air things become interesting . Otherwise having a counter limits the opponents options well.
I come from melee maining Roy - so my experience may bias my opinion somewhat.

Marth and Falco have spikes. Falcos doesn't seem as good as Marths dair tipper though.

Dededes chain is easily escaped. he falls over on many moves, and his recovery is tragic.
Shut up? Learn some manners.

 

[/~Dogma~\]

no the only things u can meteor cancel are moves that r....meteors, a move that is a meteor are one that have a little bright ball

 

[mezbomber]

so marth and falco's dair is still not a meteor smash? Are there any additional spikes that are not meteors?

 

[Demon Kirby]

Lucario looks like he was badass beyond belief, and DeDeDe (played by Ikki) in the Japanese demo videos beat the Ike player's (whos name I forget) rear what, 4/6 or 3/5 times?

 

[TMS]

Any word on R.O.B.?

 

[drengist]

Snake does seem to be a difficult character to play with. At this point no-one has any idea how to use him effectively.

I agree that Olimar is going to be a beast. He is the next Ice Climbers.

 

[shortwanabelaker]

sonic?????

 

[JawaJedi]

What are the differences between Link and Toon Link?

 

[Paranormalsin]

thus let it be known there will be no tier list for awhile and we all know one persons opinion is way diff than the next. so just cause one person says ddd is bad doesnt mean you wont have the skill to make him better. its the same way with ike. im kinda turning toward him since i loved to play roy and they took him out.
what are your opinions on mario j/w?
kinda main him now till brawl comes out so id like to know. ive seen that his Uair is faster but thats roughly about it

 

[cooldude123]

Peach: Balanced - I don't think more needs to be said.

.......NO! SAY MORE NOW!!!

....pretty please? hahaha

 

[Proven]

I think I saw a video where both Ice Climbers could hold on to a ledge at once, and their Belay causes whichever Ice Climber to reach the ledge first to pull up the other one. Please test these two things.

 

[Kimosabae]

*subscribes*


-SynikaL

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

glad my pit is up there.

and **** marth.

 

[ComradeCanada]

Snake's Back ariel and FTilt look really nice in some of the videos I've seen.
like this one.
Anything about Rob?

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

R.O.B is pretty cool. His laser beam charges over time like Wario waft. It's pretty harsh as an edgeguard once charged xD. his UpB has a lot of recovery distance (he flies with his boosters) and can act out of it. Many of his air moves influence his movement slightly...though not harshly.

Sonic is pretty average in terms of move speed. Running speed hes a gun. His B moves are all pretty similar, and I wouldn't say they're OP or anything. Sonic to me seems at the better end of average at the moment. His smashes are all good.

The Ike was supposedly Masashi.

Toon Links nair and upsmash are different. One slash upward instead of three. His nair is more similar to Marths. His run speed is great, and his dair is very fast. Dair shoots downward like Sonics and some others. Boomerang doesn't bring them back. Hero bow more straightforward like a blaster shot.

Spikes - I don't think I've experienced all tha characters enough to say how useful each of their spikes are just yet. A lot of meteors though. Just to note, Gdorfs dair is horrible on the ground ><.

Mario is pretty solid allaround. Recovery-wise he's not as good as he was in melee. Not to say he can't recover well, but everyone can now so he's nothing special (Less options now too). Fireballs have less range. UpB seems shorter range. Very similar to melee Mario really. Dair is a change for the better unless you like me used it to link into grabs, utilts or upair as it throws them outward now.

Just a point - everyone has magnet hands at the edge. The kills come at higher percents generally so this game is a lot more an intercepting game rather than edgeguard. Edgehogging works really well.

On Dedede being like melee Bowser. It's kind of true. Take away the safety move Fortress and replace the vertical recovery flaw with a horizontal one and it seems about so.

Forgot to mention: Toon Links bair is also different to Link. Its a sword slash not kicks.

Snakes bair is one of his faster moves, though it lags on landing.

Belay - Yes it does, though its height is not as good as it was in Melee.

What else would you like to know about Robot?

 

[Thinkaman]

Any details on Jigglypuff? What about Pokemon Trainer's crew and Peach/Zelda? Samus, Zamus? Heh, so many characters to learn about!

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Puff = Very similar to Melee.
PT: Squirtle is typcially a lightweight. He has a good bair, and some surprising range on his attacks. UpB takes some people some getting used to due to its set trajectory. Watergun isn't exactly fantastic but it's useful if you use it imaginitively.
Ivysaur: Nice recovery. Has a lot of exploding pollen moves. Many multihits from leaves or vines. Upsmash is slow to start but very powerful (Moreso than almost all other characters if not all.)
Charizard: Very powerful as expected. Great recovery. Good air combo ability. Strong finishers and nice long range. Actually very fast considering his strength.

Peach: Weakened downsmash. Still has all the floaty tricks. Fair is faster. Turnips don't smash throw as far from DownB. Parasol isn't godly. Toad is better. Peach Bomber has more range. Run speed is one of the better average run speeds.

Zelda: Very similar to Melee. Stronger bair/fair. Better Dins dire. Faster neutral A. Grabs are faster to actually grab therefore useful xD. Overall similar just buffed. (PS Sheik is almost identical also though needles are a little different to charge and fair is weaker. can stall on walls by clinging, as can other characters like Lucario and Squirtle for instance.)

Samus: Bombjumping is more awkward as you move away from bombs easily. Air combo ability is increased. For those who liked it the instant homerun bat swing is gone . Charge shots are weaker. Grapple can only be used to the edge not to walls. (Same for Link)

Zamus: Very fast. Long range. Stuns on B and downsmash. Forward smash is long range to the front and also swings to the back. Forward B is an extention of the whip straight ahead with god range - this is a kill move at higher percent. Back air is her main kill move. Lacking in KO abilities all up. Downsmash hits only the the front. Very good ground to air combo ability/juggles. Can walljump and crawl.

 

[sHy)(gUy]

how are sheik,diddy g&w and kirby?

 

[Thinkaman]

Excellent information; incredibly useful, what most of us I'm sure have been looking for!

 

[Big Burn]

subscribed.... how does falcon seem to u?

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

ike? very good? having played the game, i disagree. he is awful for 1v1. he is AMAZING for 2v2...but he is so slow that you cant connect with anything in a 1v1 game. its very easy for a sonic or fox to avoid almost all of his attacks.

I'm thinking you're just not that great with Ike, then.

There's been quite a few videos of Ike in one on ones from the final version of the game at this point...and they all seem to agree with Cronos' assessment.

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

G&W: Very melee. His nair is now a fishbowl instead of a chute. His UpB opens a chute at the top of it and allows u to glide around like Peach with parasol. Makes getting back less preditable and gives that needed horizontal distance.

Diddy: Really good combo character. Fast moves in general. His recovery has a long distance on it. His dash attack is a fast cartwheel like DKC games - possibly one of the best dash attacks around. Drops banana peels to control the opponent a little more. Peanuts are a fairly good projectile. Forward B is cool - you'll have to see it for yourself though xD.

Kirby is largely unchanged. his dash attack is better and he's slightly stronger than in melee. His air jumps don't feel as useful now however.

Falcon is a slower runner than he once was. His ability to run around shuffl killing everything in sight has been reduced. Falcon Punch has a little less range on it. Falcon kick can't be acted out of when in the air (as with Gdorf also). Knee is weaker. Overall sadly Falcon seems to have been hit with the nerf-stick.

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

Oh and BTW, thanks for the great info Cronos.

 

[Kirby Redux]

nothing about kirby?

 

[Mysteryfox1]

does Pit's mirror shield do something else then reflecting?

 

[Ricard_the_dragoon]

What about R.O.B.!!!! Is he good?

 

[supersonicdjs]

Kirby acts like his SSB64 self, and insted of him spinning his hammer in the air, he kicks I think.

 

[veil222]

There's been alot of videos with ganondorf, DDD, lucario, and others that he claims are bottom of the barrel showing these characters doing quite well. One persons opinion isn't really enough to give a realistic assessment. So far it really seems characters have been balance to where any character can beat any other character with a bit of practice.

 

[Ban Heim]

There's been alot of videos with ganondorf, DDD, lucario, and others that he claims are bottom of the barrel showing these characters doing quite well. One persons opinion isn't really enough to give a realistic assessment. So far it really seems characters have been balance to where any character can beat any other character with a bit of practice.

My thoughts exactly. We don't even know how good the OP is. Lucario being low tier surprised me since he seems to **** pretty hard in almost every video. Plus the damage/knockback he does seems to increase when he takes more damage (if what everyone's been saying is true).

 

[ph00tbag]

Why is Falco only in very good? From what I've seen, he is broken as hell.

 

[FSLink]

My thoughts exactly. We don't even know how good the OP is. Lucario being low tier surprised me since he seems to **** pretty hard in almost every video. Plus the damage/knockback he does seems to increase when he takes more damage (if what everyone's been saying is true).

O_o, the OP just said he's disappointing compared to the rest of the cast, which I can see as true very easily...
I don't really see anything that says Lucario's low tier, and there seems to be a smaller gap between tiers than Melee anyway.

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Well Kirby isn't very different at all. His hammer in the air spins twice if you press B again. You can hold across and mash B to keep spinning it around and around (similar to the grounded hammer though not air melee hammer). It stops after the second spin but restarts very fast.

Robot/R.O.B. isn't a disappointment.

Wolf for those who are interested is not at all disappointing. Hes very dissimilar from the other two space animals, and hits hard though fast. His nair is a good move to shff. His bairs can be linked withs second jump off the edge like Marios in melee, and his recovery Up and Side B easily allow for this killing method. His reflector has more range than Fox.

Lucario isn not bad. He's disappointing because he isn't what I or my friends had hoped. He is a good character however. Hecan combo reasonably, and like I mentioned having a counter and projectile is a strong advantage for mind games. His SideB is yet to prove itself useful. Downsmash hits both sides rather than one otherwise think Mewtwo. His nair is unlike Mewtwos. Many of his moves wave his arms around a la Chinese martial arts movies before actually going off. In this respect he's similar to Ike in that you must plan out your stronger attacks. Unlike Ike though the KO power isn't phenomenal.

Dedede's recovery is really exploitable. It doesn't sweetspot like many other characters. His chain throw is easily DI'd out of and tilted or jabbed to stop it. Like I mentioned things like his dash attack result in him falling over. On the plus side he is pretty strong, and hold A down results in a multi-hit hammer-spin (spinning the handle around hitting the opponent with the head) that has a nice range on it.

None of the characters plain suck at all....It's a good thing to see

Pits shield not only reflects but protects him from physical attacks also. Since it can be used in the air a good use is to use it to get back up off the edge and create an opening for counter attacking.
Another thing to note with Pit is that mashing B increases how far he can fly with his UpB.

Falco: He's still a great character. Spamming shb isn't an option this time around though, and things like pillaring aren't an option either. If you played NTSC, you will miss the dair being a spike at all times also, as it's more like the PAL dair, which sends up after some time. Reflector is thrown meaning it can't get you out of trouble as easily. Forward smash has less coverage. nair is a multihitter rather than a sex-kick. Firebird isn't as insanely powerful as it was - I wouldnt consider it a kill move.

 

[joeysmash]

good to know olimar does indeed do well... I want to main him as he looked to be the most difficult player

 

[LoserNumber2]

i have a question, how does fox compare to the other space animals?

 

[veil222]

I really think lucario is just a character that's going to take more time to get the hang of, I saw him face off against a sheik that was doing everything a sheik does well, and there were alot of times he had the upper hand. If the guy knew lucarios moves better, that sheik wouldn't have had any room for error. Oh, and you can wall-stick with lucario's recovery, making for tons of recover options.