The Ganondorf mindset.

[Devil7]

Ive been playing brawl online and competativly in my area and almost every other ganondorf player I have senn played or played agaist online or at tourney all have one fatal flaw in mind, their mind set.

I see a lot of this in the boards here and it is really reflected on what I have seen played. In order to play a ganon one has to have a certain mind set. This is true for all characters not just ganny but his is apperently harder to get into for most players.

#1: Ganondorf sucks. period. Do not assume for a second that you will have an edge on your opponent because you are using ganon. He is not top tier and you are fighting and up hill battle from the start just by using him. I see this every day here at swf, "ohh ganon so good his moves all kill at low percents". While the fact that he kill at low percents is true the fact is that he is very punishable is not played properly. Throwing out heavy hitting moves all the time will not give a kill, it will just make you dead.

#2: His moves are punishable. Like I stated above most of his moves are slow and punishable if you miss. Make every move hit. Don't run into the battle swinging wildly and expect not to get juggled like a plastic ball. This kind of goes along with play defensively. Your opponent will not give you a chance to recover and will smash you off the stage at every given chance, do not give them the opportunity.

#3: Don't be a scrub. Tech reading his flame choke is not cheap. It is probably one his best moves and stratagies. Use it, abuse it, break it in freak'n half. Everyone likes a good flame choke setup followed by a shield grab or elbow to the face.

#4: It is not good that Ganon is heavy. Yes this means he is harder to knock out, but it also means he is easier to combo on at low percents to build up on. Also if you play correctly you shouldn't need to use his weight to prevent you from getting knocked out, just don't get hit. While weight matters to a certain degree, at 200% even bowser had wished he dodged the last 5 attacks the each dealt 10-15 damage.

 

[Keltzon]

Good ideas. I just recently started playing Ganon, mostly due to the fact that in Melee I was crowned the "low-tier king" in my homecity. I heard that Ganon was terrible, but never got around to messing with him.

Sure, Ganon can kill in three hits. That is, if you actually get those hits off.

I find Ganon easier to play than most people for the same reason that I found Olimar to be easy to use. It's simply different from Melee battles. When anyone played Ganon in Melee, he had a pretty strong air game, especially with L-cancelling. This is no longer the case.

In reguards to having a Ganon mindset, I think I will expound a bit on yours:

1) Just like Bowser in Melee, know that you are going to be hit, and accept it. You are going to be countered, stomped, comboed, etc ALL THE TIME. Don't be frustrated. Getting frustrated pumps adrenaline through your system, and you tend to flail about with your character. You literally need to be calm to play Ganon well.

2) Know that your opponents are going to be full of glee when they see you are playing Ganon. They know they can punish him, and they'll be watching your every move in order to really hurt him.

3) Know that unless your opponent has actually sat down and studied Ganon, they don't know his priorities, his recoveries, or anything he does inbetween his moves. I know personally when I played against Ganon the few times I did, I was only looking at the beginning and end of his moves--to see what the move was, and when he would have that delicious downtime so I could smash him. LEARN HIS FAST MOVES. Other than the Utilt, his Ftilt, neutral-A, and Dtilt are surprisingly fast and very strong. I kill people constantly with Ftilt, and neutral-A is a stopper for anyone charging at you. Patience is key!

4)Practice, practice, practice. Tell yourself that you've had enough training to defeat your opponent's character. Each character has different timing, and with Ganon being one of the slowest, you'll have to refrain from pushing the A button once every second. If you are playing Sonic, playing hard-core defensive is your best option. Against Bowser, not so much.

With Ganon, you really have to switch off that fast-paced mind everyone is used to, and learn how to NOT push buttons. If someone calls you a camper, shrug it off and walk toward them. Forward-B is fun, and has little downtime at the end for a spotdodge if they spotdodged you.

If you got anything else, Devil, let me know. Like I said I've only just started with him, and this is what I've learned.

 

[:034:]

YES.

10ganons

 

[PK-ow!]

#1: Ganondorf sucks. period. Do not assume for a second that you will have an edge on your opponent because you are using ganon. He is not top tier and you are fighting and up hill battle from the start just by using him. I see this every day here at swf, "ohh ganon so good his moves all kill at low percents". While the fact that he kill at low percents is true the fact is that he is very punishable is not played properly. Throwing out heavy hitting moves all the time will not give a kill, it will just make you dead.

#2: His moves are punishable. Like I stated above most of his moves are slow and punishable if you miss. Make every move hit. Don't run into the battle swinging wildly and expect not to get juggled like a plastic ball. This kind of goes along with play defensively. Your opponent will not give you a chance to recover and will smash you off the stage at every given chance, do not give them the opportunity.

#3: Don't be a scrub. Tech reading his flame choke is not cheap. It is probably one his best moves and stratagies. Use it, abuse it, break it in freak'n half. Everyone likes a good flame choke setup followed by a shield grab or elbow to the face.

#4: It is not good that Ganon is heavy. Yes this means he is harder to knock out, but it also means he is easier to combo on at low percents to build up on. Also if you play correctly you shouldn't need to use his weight to prevent you from getting knocked out, just don't get hit. While weight matters to a certain degree, at 200% even bowser had wished he dodged the last 5 attacks the each dealt 10-15 damage.

I just can't accept number 1. Why should I? And if you or I did, then why would we main him?
I can accept he's at a disadvantage in a qualified sense, but certainly not what you advocate.

2 and 3 are of course sound imperatives. Of 4 I am skeptic. Maybe for some characters, he's a sandbag, but this *does* matter. Heavy weight means the opponent can't use hard-hitting moves until later, so if you force them to, you can be ready to retaliate - which means you can force them to, ready to retaliate, which in turn means you must be ready to force them to, because you can retaliate.

You're right about timing, Keltzon; calmness wins games, but you have to know the nuances of the matchups, such as against your example, Bowser. So very right.

 

[Tenki]

I just can't accept number 1. Why should I? And if you or I did, then why would we main him?
I can accept he's at a disadvantage in a qualified sense, but certainly not what you advocate.

But it's the mindset.

If you play as though you're at a disadvantage, you'll play more defensively/carefully. I was watching some videos that some people posted, and it pained me to watch f-air spam and smash-charges getting punished. It's understandable since they were (mostly?) made when Brawl was fresh..er so the people in the videos were treating him like Melee Ganondorf, and that's the mindset that kills Brawl Ganondorf players (at least, that's what I think TC was implying).

A bit off topic, but I looked up Lucario playing tips online a while ago, before finding smashboards, and I found a tip telling players to try training in Stamina with 100HP vs a lvl 9 with 300HP. It was training for playing defensively and being able to control damage (taken) while racking up damage on opponents. The main goal wasn't exactly to win, but to deal as much damage while taking as little as possible, since that's Lucario's game.

I'm not sure just how relevant that kind of 'training' would be for Ganondorf since he relies on his knockbacks (mostly taken away in stam mode)... but it's an interesting thought, though personally i'd train with 120-130 HP Ganondorf since that's when people tend to KO me. Anyone care to shoot it down? xD

 

[Vyse]

I think people will be able to keep the 'Gannon is outclassed, so play with that in mind' mindset more once the first tier list is made. For now, (And probably for this game's life span) I'll keep on playing him at least as a fun second character.

@Tenki:

While you have the right idea with that description of training, and the mindset that goes with it. Practicing with the CPU is not reccomended by any smashboards veteran. It has been said time and again that eventually the CPU will completely screw up your mindgames, and can actually make you worse of a player.

1 v 1 against a human will always be better.
As long as they understand (Or unknowingly utilise) Directional Influence, they will be better training partners.

EDIT:
I mean rather, using CPU's to practice for the sake of imporving one's mindgames/mindset.
In Melee, you would use level 1 cpu's to practice combo's because lvl 1 cpu's had max DI. I don't know if it's the same with Brawl (Because of my limited time with it) but yeah.

 

[Tenki]

Aha, I actually wrote a response earlier but didn't submit. Good thing I waited, you edited your post ;d

I'm not sure if you've played against level 9 computers in Brawl, but they PShield or dodge the majority of attacks thrown at them.

Training with a lv 9 computer in that condition might be bad for mindgames, but when I tried it with Lucario, I came out of it with a better feel for spacing (since especially for Lucario, you have to space moves to Aura's range) and which moves are most safely used against defensive opponents, assuming that they Pshield, block, or dodge and punish most attacks. As Ganondorf, if you knew that your opponent was going to Pshield your next attack, you wouldn't want to F-air it, right?

That kinda training would have set up a Lucario player to be able to take out 3 lives' worth of damage (~300%) for the length of 1 life (~100% for Lucario). It would be pretty impressive for a Ganondorf to pull that ratio off against a nimble character (and since they're usually light, it would be more like 1:4-1:5 instead of 1:3).

I think after each session, I'd come out with a temporary dodge/jab reflex lol. It's not so much mind-game training as it is reflex, since that's pretty much all that lv9 comps have running for them.

random q: In melee, sometimes it felt alot easier to fight against overaggressive comps and I noticed I'd win against lv 9 but lose against lv 5-6. Is Brawl like that? (sorry, I also have limited time on it lol)

 

[Devil7]

I just can't accept number 1. Why should I? And if you or I did, then why would we main him?
I can accept he's at a disadvantage in a qualified sense, but certainly not what you advocate.

2 and 3 are of course sound imperatives. Of 4 I am skeptic. Maybe for some characters, he's a sandbag, but this *does* matter. Heavy weight means the opponent can't use hard-hitting moves until later, so if you force them to, you can be ready to retaliate - which means you can force them to, ready to retaliate, which in turn means you must be ready to force them to, because you can retaliate.

You're right about timing, Keltzon; calmness wins games, but you have to know the nuances of the matchups, such as against your example, Bowser. So very right.

first off GANON SUCKS. I main him because almost no one else does compared to the other characters. kinda like gimpyfish and bowser. I also main him because he is the undisputed bad *** mother f***in king of darkness. And if you think weight matters in a good since play against a pro fox player as ganon and you'll see what i mean.

 

[studly]

useful information
i dont have a main and i switch what character im using pretty much everyday

gannon has been my character for the last week
Its very true i think..about not pushing buttons and against some characters
gannon's only winning option is to camp a bit

but seriously...he really does suck...at least at speed, and in a lot of competative matches that ive played, speed is what matters most.....and im not saying you guys shouldnt main him. on the contrary..imjust commenting on the ridiculas amounts of patience and skill it takes to master him

 

[Zarez]

Before I can say a character actually sucks, I have to see their true potential compared to that of other characters. But I do agree that you should play with the mindset you described, and that you should play defensively, rather than expecting it to be easy.

 

[Keltzon]

Devil: Brawl Fox or Melee Fox? Because quite honestly, I learned that the tiers in Melee were set up almost too well. A close-to-perfect Fox could never lose to a perfect Ganon, in my opinion. In Brawl, however, the characters are evened out much more, giving Ganon a chance to be on top.

Several times I surprised people with Ganon's new recovery. Not only is it vertically longer, but his arm reach is long enough to grab the edge by almost 3 entire inches on the TV screen!

About the weight: It works both ways. You HAVE to go into battle with the mindset that you will be comboed due to his weight/speed combination of PHAIL. I agree with PK-ow!'s logic on this one: Using smashes against Ganon is almost a waste of time early on, because he doesn't get knocked back as hard and he can punish it. Players will be forced to use faster moves, to whittle him down. And guess what? Every single attack of Ganondorf hits like a mac truck, and his damage doesn't get reduced.

It's simple, really: He starts heavy, and gets lighter the more damage he takes. In the beginning, he gets fewer hits off because his body is being juggled, but nonetheless he racks damage, and boy does it do it quick. Then, when he's lighter, the juggling stops, and Ganon hits them a few more times to send them off the screen.

GANON. HITS. HARD.

And as long as you punish your opponent often enough in the beginning minutes of the battle, any of Ganon's moves can finish them off.

 

[Magus-Cie]

I approach playing with Gannondorf with 2 different mindsets. Against non-projectile characters, it is that they will come to me, one way or another. With projectile characters, it is that this fight will be in close quarters, and as much as Samus likes her charge beam, she will only get a full one off if she takes serious punishment prior to getting it charged.

Either way, the mindset GDorf needs to have is "This fight will be on my terms."

 

[misterbee180]

Idk about this whole thread. You seem to be making ganon out to be shatty like bowser in melee. He's an amazing char who has amazing priority in battle. His strength alone allows him to play offensive while not caring about damage for for a long time. The one thing I agree about this post w/ is the idea that ganon needs to have a different play style and that playstyle is the disreguard for damage and a greater reguard for counter attacks

 

[Tenki]

Eh, Ganondorf isn't THAT heavy. He's lighter than Ike/Bowser/Dedede and a little heavier than Marth, so don't overestimate his weight. Regard your damage, but above that, pay attention to your opponent's moves so you can punish them into a Flame Choke.

If anything, I'd mix up Flame Choke--> follow-up juggle/tech-chase and aerial attacks for damage. Flame Choke puts all opponents on equal ground, since there's not much difference between a grounded Jigglypuff, Marth, Pit, or Bowser. With the standing D-tilt combo option (I believe it works on EVERYONE) from Flame Choke, you can always ensure at least 1 hit for a total of 20% per choke/kick, as well as disrupting your opponent's game.

I'm not sure about most of you people, but in my Ganondorf game, I put alot more emphasis on grab type moves and sparse power moves. ._.; it seems to work on most people, and kinda helps with the whole.. damage aspect, if you know what I mean.

 

[Cero]

#3: Don't be a scrub. Tech reading his flame choke is not cheap. It is probably one his best moves and stratagies. Use it, abuse it, break it in freak'n half. Everyone likes a good flame choke setup followed by a shield grab or elbow to the face.

lol-the best advice you can give to anyone about using any character can be summarized in 4 simple words:

DON'T. BE. A. SCRUB.

 

[Devil7]

Idk about this whole thread. You seem to be making ganon out to be shatty like bowser in melee. He's an amazing char who has amazing priority in battle. His strength alone allows him to play offensive while not caring about damage for for a long time. The one thing I agree about this post w/ is the idea that ganon needs to have a different play style and that playstyle is the disreguard for damage and a greater reguard for counter attacks

Ganon is about as amazing in battle as a cow is. he is slow and a big target. and it seems obviouse that you haven't played a real tourney because as i stated earlier DONT GET HIT. hell they have a shirt about it, real pro players will give you exact same advice. you should NEVER ignore damage in any fashion at all. A real pro fox will not let up pressure and continue to juggle and then deliver the final blow to send you over the edge and just prevent you from getting back on around 50% rather than knocking you offf the side or top.

 

[misterbee180]

Woah woah kid. You couldn't be farther from being correct. Let me first clarify that I am number one brawler over here at WSU as proven by a tourney we just had here this past saturday. And boy does it feel good to bait someone into giving me that opportunity to say that.

Second, ganon is much better than a cow. I'll tell you that much. In fact I'd say he's much quicker than one too. Any move of his can be used w/o even a second of lag excluding the f-air of course. You can even use your forward b w/ minimal chance of being punished for it and all of those forward b's lead into a potential tech counter.

You talk about fox but look how tiny fox is compared to ganon's massive stature. A well played ganon can always go into the 200 range of damage and despite his heavy and awkward appearance he is actually does amazingly well at constantly attacking people much like a fox or falco or who ever else you're going to compare him to next.

Damage is an afterthought for any ganon player because regardless of how much you have, chances are the only way you will die is by some sort of gimp kill.

Believe it or not, all the japanese are wrong when they place ganon at the lower or lowest end of the tier lists because frankly they have no idea what he is capable of. Trust me, I'm the best

 

[Tenki]

._.; Basing it off from a Sonic thread where I tried (as Sonic) to find kill moves, I found that the difference between pulling a successful combo off on a characterwith weight like Marth and a character with weight like Ganondorf was about 10% at the least.

Maybe the person was spamming the kill-move and stale move effect broke its knockback, or maybe you played very well and dodged / kept the opportunities for kill-moves away from your opponent, but I get KO'd quite a bit if I don't play Ganon-sumo aggressively.

P.S.
...flame bait... D:

 

[Sliq]

Misterbee is only posting that Ganon is good because I am awesome and rocked his **** with Ganon.

Also, you guys are posting really obvious **** that anyone with a brain stem should already know.

 

[misterbee180]

LOL yea right sliq i never played you. And if I did it was probably on wifi and we all know how unreliable that is. You're in New York, I am in Washington. What are the chances of a match between you and me ever happening. Seriously though, I hate when people try to make Ganon out to be bad. He is so amazingly powerful and quick that I question why any one even bothers playing any one else. Especially Ike that slow motha fatha! Now that's a character with some problems!

And wth is with this defensive strat being the only way to win with ganon? He has priority over pretty much everything in the game. A defensive strat will only hender how well you do because of how slow ganon is at dodging and moving. You need to set the pace of the battle. A fox will think twice about attacking you when the last two attempts at attacks were beaten back by an up air or a back air. A fox wont think twice about attacking you if all you're doing is shield rolling and using flame choke. Yea. I've seen some of your all vids and I am positive that that strat is unsuccessful 90% of the time. After a while your roll will get predicted and then what are you going to do? You need to use ganons massive strength to your advantage and scare your opponent into doubting what moves to do.

And if you dont believe me, try and use a defensive strat against another "lower tier" char like zelda. You cant do it. Her attacks are unpunishable by defense. Only by attacking and predicting her attempts and attacks can you ever truly turn her into your *****.

 

[Devil7]

WOW! you have no idea how to play ganon at all do you misterbee. First off flame choke is a set up move not a move that you just throw around a lot. Second who said anything about just dodgeing and flamechoking. Obviously your definition of defensive strat is a little off. Im not saying don't attack im saying make your moves hit with 100% accuracy so you don't get punished and don't get hit which entails just a little bit more than dodging and rolling.

 

[misterbee180]

Lol sorry devil... I'm way over this thread already. Good luck at trying to convince people of how bad your char is. You should post a few vids and people might agree with you.

 

[Devil7]

First off ganon is not my char. Im not saying people can't be good with him. Quite the opposite. I have seen bizzaro Flames vids and he is good. What I said was don't assume you have an advantage because you are playing him. There is a difference between a crappy char and crappy char being used by a good player and kicking everyones ***. I see around the boards that people have a hard time telling the two apart. Like in melee if you got beat by a ganon it wasn't because he was a awsome char like falco it was because whoever was useing him was better than you. I feel that this is still true in brawl like it was in melee. in order to win with him you need to be better than your opponent because your char is slow. You need read his movements and predict. Now ganons moves aren't all slow like you stated before but you can't just use those moves only in a match and expect to win. If you do your playing nOObs and well we all know how thats goes. You need to mix it up or you become predictable.

 

[0RLY]

Ganondorf:

1) Land 8 attacks.
2) KO your foe.
3) Don't get hit.

If a Ganon player can do this, they'll win. The only problem is, it's extremely difficult for Ganon to do this. Each of those three points can be broken down into many many techniques and mechanics that a player can use to succeed.

 

[FrostByte]

He is so amazingly powerful and quick

"lower tier" char like zelda.

WTF is this?

 

[Devil7]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160643

This actually goes into pretty good detail.

 

[studly]

crazy insane

 

[Grunge]

Scrubs will get sparta kicked >.>