The Future of Pit and Discussions About Him

[Liquid Brick]

TL;DR - I ***** and moan about why Pit isn't being talked about on here.

If this needs to be removed or anything, just ask me and I'll do that. Some of the stuff I say here qualifies for other characters and aspects of the game as well; many ideas could be transposed to another character given the right situation. It's pretty long too.

Focal Point: Pit isn't being talked about very frequently on here, especially compared to other characters. I raise points as to why that is, and give responses.

Hey everyone. Somethings I've noticed here (the pit char discussion) are a little concerning. Quite frankly, this is one of the least active boards on the site, let alone the character discussion threads. Why? I realize that not too many people use smashboards as their first resource anymore, fewer still remain active for too long. I'm not exclusive to this, but I've checked back on here many times over the years, and it seems that Pit as a character in PM is a less popular choice.

There seems to be less general discussion about Pit than any other character, and the only times I see "Pit" in a sentence, "OP" "plz nerf" and "top tier" are never more than a sentence away. I'm not asking why that's so, but I'm generally just confused as to how a character who is so good has such a low amount of surrounding discussion. The player-base is both really small and spread out in terms of skill, despite how highly players in general rate Pit.

I have a few ideas as to why there isn't a whole lot going on here. I'm not given criticism on anyone in particular and this may seem like a whine-fest, but in reality, I'm generally curious as to why Pit just isn't talked about. Most importantly, I'm trying to see if we can fix that. Reasons for inactivity are given, followed by a response.

Again, this is just me saying something I think needs to be said.

1) Pit as a character is just boring. Auto combos for dayz - A bit true, but that can be said about a lot of characters in PM. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but that doesn't mean they're correct. And if you hate Pit that much, you probably wouldn't have added to the discussions anyway. An example of this sort of thing is the fact that one of the most popular threads in this section is a complaint thread about Pit's exceptional recovery. I'm not saying such threads are bad; in fact these kinds of subjects ADD to the general discussion. But when such a criticism is by far the most popular thread, it says a lot about the character's player-base.

2) Pit is just gonna get nerfed anyway - That's going to happen. It's true. In a very crucial way, PM's system of updates is flawed. By doing exceptionally well with any particular character, you are going to attract enough attention. That attention can lead to an outcry of people which in turn, leads to the Dev Team taking another look. We all know what that means. NERFS. They are just going to be a part of the game, given it's current situation of patching and balancing. This can cause people to stay quiet, because they don't want their fun with a character to be ruined. And if everyone stays all hush-hush, that leads to a lack of discussion. They might hesitate to explain a new AT or combo string, and it is this hesitation that might be responsible for the lack of discussion of the character. But as much as those statements are correct, I believe you SHOULDN'T hold back anything that might develop your character. While your character might get nerfed in the end, PM's patches are not released quickly enough to worry. You can totally have fun abusing your "broken" character for a while (until the next patch), and if you love that character so much, you'll stick by after such nerfs. It seems with Pit's impending doom following 3.5's release, I for one will still play him. I'll try and add to future discussions rather than fly off to a new character, and I implore you to do likewise. In the end, it's your own choice, but just know that one choice can help others and lead to future discussions pertaining to the character you once loved to play.

3) Pit's been figured out already. I can't use him to the level that the pros can - Then get gud. Like really. I know what it's like to have this feeling, and I've thought that Pit's been figured out before. But, I've played Pit since day 1 of Brawl, switched to PM in Version 2.0, and have stuck with him all of this time. And in that time, I gave little to no contribution to the metagame. I didn't go out and place highly at an international tournament. I didn't make a tutorial video and post it on youtube. I would have liked to, but I didn't. Instead, I contributed on smashboards, and told my friends and others at my locals all I knew about Pit. His strategies, his weaknesses (he has them, despite what people say), and most importantly, his qualitative aspects that I enjoyed enough to continue playing him. Then along came Armada, soon followed by ZeRo. I'm not blaming them for anything at all; I congratulate them on their success and progress. They have contributed FAR more than I have: they actually achieved goals with the character, won money, made guides, discovered combos and showed the world just how deadly Pit can be. But still I felt like something was taken from me. A character who I had played for so long and was trying to discover every little detail and nuance about had been taken to new heights by people who weren't even known for their skills in PM, let alone that character. As a smasher, my opinion means little, and I may seem like an ungrateful jerk. But I promise you, as a person, I am very grateful for what the true professionals have done. I do not blame them one bit for how I felt because that was my own problem. They are allowed to have fun, and I am too. That's when I came to the realization that I don't mean jack ****. In order to make myself worthwhile, I had to help people understand the character. I had insider knowledge and could teach and inform people on how to do the things Armada and ZeRo did with Pit. They brought attention to the character, now I had to do my part and help those with a newfound interest.I admit, I still haven't done a whole lot, but I have contributed. In a similar way, others can do exactly the same kind of thing. While we might not get a combo video of us made by an adoring fan, we as the community should provide help and create discussions. It's not helping ANYONE if you remain in the state I talked about earlier.

4) This is a collection of boards. Relax. Maybe people just don't FEEL like posting - Yea I get that. I'm guilty of simply passing over a board or post and keeping my thoughts to myself. But before posting this, there were no posts on the Pit character section for a week. The 2nd longest time between posts for other characters was only 2 days. Maybe there just isn't an overwhelming amount of people who want to talk about Pit. They're busy or can't be bothered. Smash 4 is a thing, and LOTS of people will be playing that. That means that there will be even LESS discussion about Pit and PM in general. But even before Smash Kerfuffle was released, the Pit boards weren't active. Part of the reason is that the social thread is pretty much defunct. Lots of people who provided content only a year ago, like Archangel and Eggz, aren't active. The reason no one feels like posting just might be that no one else is posting or adding to the discussion. If you have anything to say, PLEASE say something. Especially with the new update looming ever closer, Pit deserves discussion!

Thanks guys.

 

[PartlyCloudy]

M'k, I'll put myself out there.
I agree with you about the Pit boards being kinda bare. I think a lot of it might be the small playerbase, combined with a little of not wanting to have Pit get nerfed into the ground. Personally, I don't post a lot (or at all really) because I feel like I am pretty new to all this and not very high in terms of skill level. I don't have any tournament experience or feel really super good at the game, so I figure I'm wrong about most things or at least someone could do it better than me.
I would like there to be some more action on here though. I play Pit and Marth a lot, and my friend mains Ivy. He cannot seem to beat my Pit though, and I've tried to look on here to help him out only to find very sparse information. It's frustrating for him because he sees it as validation that the character is broken, and frustrating for me because I can't even say in good conscience that he isn't.

 

[Fortress]

>Reverse knockback on three attacks
>Attack specifically designed to **** people who crouch cancel against him
>Incredible killing potential and phenomenal damage output with next to no effort
>Worst matchups are considered 5.5/4.5
>Superb grabs
>The whole package; fast, powerful, diverse movement options, can kill off any side of the screen whether on-stage or off
>slowest attack is a frame ten

Take this whatever way that you want, my own take on Pit is that he's a character that has all of the tools, dialed up to eleven for good effect, falling under no specific character archetype and suffering no specific weakness because of it, while still being able to outperform other jack-of-all-trades characters.

I get that Lucas is a running gag as the 'perfect character', but Pit seems like an honest try to make a well-made character that came out too well. People complain about the recovery game, but it's only one element of his near-perfect design, which nobody talks about. Pit can recover, really well. Cool. But, he's also got incredible combos and a high amount of kill moves. Okay, so he's got killing potential, so? He's fast, very fast, with damage output and knockback unmatched by many characters in his 'speed' class as it were. So what, he's fast, and? He's got the tools to deal with literally every situation; a projectile that confirms into anything he has and can be fired off faster than you can say "low-tier garbage", the ability to put himself way out there to deal with recovering opponents, attacks to kill off of every side of the screen (on-stage and off), and for whatever reason a gigantic shield that only makes shield-grabbing (with his robust grab range) and defensive play more rewarding for Pit should he choose to play that way.

Pit can be played in literally any fashion and find success. There's no one thing one has to master to play this character to his fullest, and there's no one thing that he suffers so strongly in that his other utilities cannot make up for. You can play rushdown with his superb movement and extremely fast attacks, overwhelming an opponent with pressure from up close with the tools to pop opponents out of shields and connect before counterattacks can come out. Pit can play a more defensive style with his incredible ranged game, with his movement options allowing him to weave in and out of the fight whenever he needs to should he choose to remain at a range, and an overly-large shield bolsters his game when playing wait-and-bait. Pit also finds success with a balance between the two polar extremes with his incredibly strong attacks, tacking on large amounts of damage that seem too large for how fast and 'weak' his attacks look, especially for what his character type seems to be (fast, dainty, tough to combat off stage), only further-compounded by the fact that he possesses attacks with an absurd amount of knockback for how fast they are (cite Fox uSmash all you want, that doesn't justify Pit being Pit in the environment he's developed in).

Pit's got all of the right tools, they just need to be toned down a lot, and has no reason to have each tool be a useful one with little-to-no risk associated with it. The dev team just needs to decide if this is going to be a character who can recover more easily, but has weaker kill potential to compensate, a character with a superb projectile who suffers when distance is closed, or a character with great kill potential but the potential to die rather quickly himself. As it stands, he's a zoner with faster attacks than most of the cast (making him able to deal with pressure that characters of that class typically struggle with), with incredibly fast attacks that kill quickly (which is atypical of characters such as MK or Sonic who have killing tools but have specific setups and situations for them) with no particular focus on setup, with a recovery game that, while not perfect, is still well above-average.

TL;DR: It seems like the PMDT simply cannot decide what kind of character Pit is supposed to be. He's speedy, a powerhouse, an incredible ranged fighter with one projectile who does not suffer largely when the gap is closed, with fast attacks that kill quickly, who has an above-average (but not impossible to beat) recovery game. I think that it could benefit this character if the development team were to step back and examine just what kind of character they want this to be, since Pit seems to be a jack-of-all-trades that towers high-and-above most of the roster. Polarizing power with a very fast moveset possessed of high kill potential a balanced character does not make.

[collapse=Personal gripe]Closing note: On the topic of 'Pit's Future'. Based on his update history through versions of Project M, with his list of positive changes growing longer each update and list of negative ones growing shorter (with his last negative change being a level of armor lost on down-B), the only thing I forsee is cash money for Pit and his playerbase. Maybe he'll get another completely inconsequential nerf like down-B's armor rating being downgraded once more, but to compensate he'll gain another jump, a frame 1 uSmash, reverse knockback on two more attacks (probably fTilt and dTilt LOL), and a tether. Those are just my personal gripes, though.

The joke is that Pit somehow gets stronger each update. Oh wait the real joke is Pit's design. And your main's matchup against him is the punchline.[/collapse]

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

>Reverse knockback on three attacks
>Attack specifically designed to **** people who crouch cancel against him
>Incredible killing potential and phenomenal damage output with next to no effort
>Worst matchups are considered 5.5/4.5
>Superb grabs
>The whole package; fast, powerful, diverse movement options, can kill off any side of the screen whether on-stage or off
>slowest attack is a frame ten

Take this whatever way that you want, my own take on Pit is that he's a character that has all of the tools, dialed up to eleven for good effect, falling under no specific character archetype and suffering no specific weakness because of it, while still being able to outperform other jack-of-all-trades characters.

I get that Lucas is a running gag as the 'perfect character', but Pit seems like an honest try to make a well-made character that came out too well. People complain about the recovery game, but it's only one element of his near-perfect design, which nobody talks about. Pit can recover, really well. Cool. But, he's also got incredible combos and a high amount of kill moves. Okay, so he's got killing potential, so? He's fast, very fast, with damage output and knockback unmatched by many characters in his 'speed' class as it were. So what, he's fast, and? He's got the tools to deal with literally every situation; a projectile that confirms into anything he has and can be fired off faster than you can say "low-tier garbage", the ability to put himself way out there to deal with recovering opponents, attacks to kill off of every side of the screen (on-stage and off), and for whatever reason a gigantic shield that only makes shield-grabbing (with his robust grab range) and defensive play more rewarding for Pit should he choose to play that way.

Pit can be played in literally any fashion and find success. There's no one thing one has to master to play this character to his fullest, and there's no one thing that he suffers so strongly in that his other utilities cannot make up for. You can play rushdown with his superb movement and extremely fast attacks, overwhelming an opponent with pressure from up close with the tools to pop opponents out of shields and connect before counterattacks can come out. Pit can play a more defensive style with his incredible ranged game, with his movement options allowing him to weave in and out of the fight whenever he needs to should he choose to remain at a range, and an overly-large shield bolsters his game when playing wait-and-bait. Pit also finds success with a balance between the two polar extremes with his incredibly strong attacks, tacking on large amounts of damage that seem too large for how fast and 'weak' his attacks look, especially for what his character type seems to be (fast, dainty, tough to combat off stage), only further-compounded by the fact that he possesses attacks with an absurd amount of knockback for how fast they are (cite Fox uSmash all you want, that doesn't justify Pit being Pit in the environment he's developed in).

Pit's got all of the right tools, they just need to be toned down a lot, and has no reason to have each tool be a useful one with little-to-no risk associated with it. The dev team just needs to decide if this is going to be a character who can recover more easily, but has weaker kill potential to compensate, a character with a superb projectile who suffers when distance is closed, or a character with great kill potential but the potential to die rather quickly himself. As it stands, he's a zoner with faster attacks than most of the cast (making him able to deal with pressure that characters of that class typically struggle with), with incredibly fast attacks that kill quickly (which is atypical of characters such as MK or Sonic who have killing tools but have specific setups and situations for them) with no particular focus on setup, with a recovery game that, while not perfect, is still well above-average.

TL;DR: It seems like the PMDT simply cannot decide what kind of character Pit is supposed to be. He's speedy, a powerhouse, an incredible ranged fighter with one projectile who does not suffer largely when the gap is closed, with fast attacks that kill quickly, who has an above-average (but not impossible to beat) recovery game. I think that it could benefit this character if the development team were to step back and examine just what kind of character they want this to be, since Pit seems to be a jack-of-all-trades that towers high-and-above most of the roster. Polarizing power with a very fast moveset possessed of high kill potential a balanced character does not make.

[collapse=Personal gripe]Closing note: On the topic of 'Pit's Future'. Based on his update history through versions of Project M, with his list of positive changes growing longer each update and list of negative ones growing shorter (with his last negative change being a level of armor lost on down-B), the only thing I forsee is cash money for Pit and his playerbase. Maybe he'll get another completely inconsequential nerf like down-B's armor rating being downgraded once more, but to compensate he'll gain another jump, a frame 1 uSmash, reverse knockback on two more attacks (probably fTilt and dTilt LOL), and a tether. Those are just my personal gripes, though.

The joke is that Pit somehow gets stronger each update. Oh wait the real joke is Pit's design. And your main's matchup against him is the punchline.[/collapse]

Kind of ironic coming from a link main kek

 

[Fortress]

Kind of ironic coming from a link main kek

(I'm a Zelda main)

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

(I'm a Zelda main)

You should probably change your pm main in your id then

 

[Fortress]

Ooooooooor what. They'll nerf my character and make Pit even better? What could they possibly do? Allow his overly-large shield to let him move and perform uSmash on the move? Haha... ha... hahaha......

[collapse=Calling it now]His next big nerf is losing a whole color slot.[/collapse]

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

Ooooooooor what. They'll nerf my character and make Pit even better? What could they possibly do? Allow his overly-large shield to let him move and perform uSmash on the move? Haha... ha... hahaha......

[collapse=Calling it now]His next big nerf is losing a whole color slot.[/collapse]

Could you please not turn this into yet another "nerf pit he's bork xDDDD" page? We have enough of those already. Part of the whole point of this thread is to try to have actual pit conversation and circumvent people like you just spamming threads.

 

[Fortress]

Please show me that anything I pointed out about this character is wrong and that he has some actual deep discussion to talk about beyond "I grab them and do anything and then I win", and sure. I don't exactly see anybody piping up in his favor, and I'm not the only one in this thread who's pointed out that he's too good.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

You complain too much. Good players don't complain; they adapt.

 

[Fortress]

You complain too much. Good players don't complain; they adapt.

In a game like Project M, where devs have the power to change what they want when they want and balance the game accordingly, it is also the job of the playerbase to be sure that their experience being delivered is as balanced as it can be. "Get good" is just a bandaid solution in a setting like this, and a cop out way of avoiding discussion on something that is probably subject to balances. If you don't have anything actually good to come up with, then I suggest you quit with the 'get gud' talk. I've never heard of you.

Practice what you preach, and come up with something to let people like me know that there are ways to adapt like you say, or I'm going to just stick with "you agree with every point that I suggested on this character's abilities". Complaints about arrow spam? Pitch in with what you have done to adapt to it. Hearing about troubles with the character's speed? What have you done to circumvent it? Try saying something useful for a change instead of this "quit whining lol I'll never explain what I mean" bull****.

If you have something useful to discuss, discuss it, instead of pitching in with a "lol Link player" quip. I thought I did a pretty nice job explaining why I have the opinions on this character that I have, but I haven't seen you explain a thing about what you have to 'adapt' to it, or acknowledge one way or the other if this character is indeed too powerful or not. I asked you to point out what you disagree with and how it's wrong, to which you replied "quit complaining". I'm just going to stick with "I'm right, you couldn't come up with jack" until then.

 

[Vugzi]

Lol why are you so butthurt? Sazoon is just saying that you have Link set as your main on SmashBoards, no big deal. Also, Pit is really good IMO. He needs some nerfs, but definitely not as much as you think. He's not broken, I agree with 50% of what you're saying, and 100% with Sazoon

 

[Fortress]

Lol why are you so butthurt? Sazoon is just saying that you have Link set as your main on SmashBoards, no big deal. Also, Pit is really good IMO. He needs some nerfs, but definitely not as much as you think. He's not broken, I agree with 50% of what you're saying, and 100% with Sazoon

I'm saying that if somebody's going to jump in and go "no, you're wrong, get gud", then it'd probably be a smart idea to explain why what you're arguing against is wrong. I'm not hurt over some no-name not being able to give me a concrete answer, if anything it just helps me know that I'm not wrong when I lay out these things about Pit.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

I just don't really see the point in arguing tbh. It's pretty common knowledge that pit is like top 5, but the way you talk about him it seems as if he's invincible, which would probably lead most to believe that you don't know how to adapt. I'm not saying you're bad at the game, I'm saying if you just complain about how broken something is, people will think that your a scrub.

 

[Fortress]

I just don't really see the point in arguing tbh. It's pretty common knowledge that pit is like top 5, but the way you talk about him it seems as if he's invincible, which would probably lead most to believe that you don't know how to adapt. I'm not saying you're bad at the game, I'm saying if you just complain about how broken something is, people will think that your a scrub.

Somebody's got to point this stuff out. The character is most definitely not invincible, but I'm not going to sit here and not say that he doesn't have too much going on for him. It's pretty obvious that Pit is arguably top 3, but why he is ought to be explained. I'm laying out, in my tournament experience over the past couple of years, why I think the way I do about this character, and hope that some other players can point out what specifically they think can be toned down. I could just lay out my opinion that Pit is a boring, broken mess, but I'm going to explain a little more than that.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

Somebody's got to point this stuff out. The character is most definitely not invincible, but I'm not going to sit here and not say that he doesn't have too much going on for him. It's pretty obvious that Pit is arguably top 3, but why he is ought to be explained. I'm laying out, in my tournament experience over the past couple of years, why I think the way I do about this character, and hope that some other players can point out what specifically they think can be toned down. I could just lay out my opinion that Pit is a boring, broken mess, but I'm going to explain a little more than that.

We have enough of those "prophets"

 

[Fortress]

We have enough of those "prophets"

All I hear is "I don't have anything good enough to come up with to tell you that you're incorrect". :^)

 

[Vugzi]

Hey Fortress, I don't mean to sound mean or anything, but Sazoon actually has a good point.

 

[Fortress]

...which would be? I've heard "you're wrong", but I haven't heard how and why. So, again, just sticking with "I'm right, you know that Pit's borked and needs to be discussed."

 

[Spralwers]

I'm generally just confused as to how a character who is so good has such a low amount of surrounding discussion. The player-base is both really small and spread out in terms of skill, despite how highly players in general rate Pit.

I think it's because of this:

falling under no specific character archetype

It seems like the PMDT simply cannot decide what kind of character Pit is supposed to be.

I've had similar thoughts about Pit. I've played him, I've watched him be played at the highest level, I've even played against Armada's and Zero's Pits in tournament. I just can't get a grasp for what he is (other than a jack of all trades that also happens to be a master of things). When I play him, I don't really know what to look for, and I don't really know what to do just to have casual fun with him. When I play against him, it's not really obvious what to do. This ambiguity just leads me to lack a lot of interest in him.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

...which would be? I've heard "you're wrong", but I haven't heard how and why. So, again, just sticking with "I'm right, you know that Pit's borked and needs to be discussed."

I never said you were wrong. I said maybe you should complain less. I also said pit is broken atm too so I don't know what your problem is. I don't really feel like continuing replying to you on this thread so kthxbai. btw you won this...argument(?) if it makes you feel better.

 

[Daeeedal]

Pit kind of feels like PMDT's attempt to combine Sheik and Metaknight or something. My main issue is the hitstun on the arrows making Falco's lasers look like Fox's. Plus you can direct them. That added with his speed and power makes him probably the single most potent edge-guarder in the game.

So reduced arrow hitstun would be a good start. It was already a really good projectile in Brawl when you could aerially dodge it multiple times and still get back to the stage. Now, with one single air dodge that leaves you vulnerable, it's basically up to the shooter to mess up and miss you.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I just don’t get why/like that Pit runs faster than Marth, Pikachu, and Sheik.
There’s nothing about Pit’s identity to suggest he should run so fast. On the contrary, that he’s an archer means his arrows should be pretty good, which suggests he should be slow enough that he can’t just run away and shoot them all day.
Judging by his official description, his glide is supposed to be his other defining feature, yet it’s obviated in most situations. Running is safer, less committal, and more rewarding; that it’s also faster leaves no point to gliding except when running is literally impossible.
And it’s not like it’s some Brawl leftover. In Brawl, Pit had average speed; the closest other character was Mr. Game & Watch, who has his (slower) Melee speed in PM. Even Pit’s awkward animation suggests running is not his forte.

In conclusion, PMBR plz make Pikachu faster.

 

[Player -0]

I think one of the biggest problems is is that the hitstun increases with percent. I think normalizing the histun to not be dumb later would be good.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

I just don’t get why/like that Pit runs faster than Marth, Pikachu, and Sheik.
There’s nothing about Pit’s identity to suggest he should run so fast. On the contrary, that he’s an archer means his arrows should be pretty good, which suggests he should be slow enough that he can’t just run away and shoot them all day.
Judging by his official description, his glide is supposed to be his other defining feature, yet it’s obviated in most situations. Running is safer, less committal, and more rewarding; that it’s also faster leaves no point to gliding except when running is literally impossible.
And it’s not like it’s some Brawl leftover. In Brawl, Pit had average speed; the closest other character was Mr. Game & Watch, who has his (slower) Melee speed in PM. Even Pit’s awkward animation suggests running is not his forte.

In conclusion, PMBR plz make Pikachu faster.

Pit's speed just seems exaggerated because of his initial dash. They left it the same from brawl.

 

[Player -0]

Check the info guide. Pit runs .02 faster than Marth, Pit and DK. So preeetttyyy friggen fast.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

Check the info guide. Pit runs .02 faster than Marth, Pit and DK. So preeetttyyy friggen fast.

lol pit is faster than pit. but yeah I probably shoulda checked before posting

 

[Fortress]

The Pit-Pit matchup is actually, like, 120/-20. It's rough.

 

[Cubelarooso]

It's the pits.

 

[Fortress]

>my experience any time I play Pit