The Future of Lucas in the Meta

[Muffin from Mars]

never mind im dumb

 

[Shrug]

This video might be relevant to help you straighten out your thoughts on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTXPCgR62_k

I agree that it's a shame that Lucas's representation in high level play is shrinking rather than growing. I'd love to have more footage to study, but it's a fair choice by those players. If you personally are more interested in reaching the top level of Smash 4, then you are much better off picking a top 10 character. However, if you enjoy exploring Lucas as a character, pushing his meta, and seeing how far you can take him, then you should stick with Lucas. It's really as simple as that.

Personally, I think that Lucas has more potential than he's given credit for. I don't think he's top 10, but I do think he's a solid character. I don't play this game expecting to win supermajors, but I sincerely enjoy playing as Lucas and learning this game through him.

Judging from the way you talk about Lucas here, it seems to me like you'd be better off sticking with him. However, if your main goal is to become the best, you are better off picking someone else.

 

[Hukster]

Personally, I think that Lucas has more potential than he's given credit for. I don't think he's top 10, but I do think he's a solid character. I don't play this game expecting to win supermajors, but I sincerely enjoy playing as Lucas and learning this game through him.

I definitely agree that Lucas has way more potential than what people give credit for. Probably a very slept on character, especially looking at that one tier list that was made just before this last patch. Lucas just lacks reps that will actually represent the character. Maybe in the near future people will actually show that Lucas has more potential. Whenever I go to tournaments, I typically try to pull out Lucas more than Ness, because I do wanna try to show people that Lucas is better than what most think. I know I haven't gone to many tournaments, but yeah.

 

[NewZen]

I'm just gonna say this about him:

Yes, I use him as well, and have been since Brawl, but at the same time, high level players are gonna play who they're gonna play, no matter how much we'd like to see a character get represented.

Lucas, as it stands, is a character that has a good bit of potential, but he's still one that's outclassed because of his many problems (Unreliable kill options, slow speed, light frame and substandard recovery), and with Bayonetta (Hard to master, but brutal when in full effect due to her options) and Corrin (Relies on reach, but has amazing options, good aerials and standards, and decent Specials) on the scene now, he's just becoming more irrelevant to others, unfortunately. As a Lucas player, it's hard to fight against a number of the cast when trying to get in requires me to basically think of a 5-Stage Development plan just for a payoff unlike certain other characters.

Hell, this situation kind of reminds me of when people started dropping Luigi after he got hit with the nerf bat, but, difference is in that regard, people just dropped him because they felt they couldn't get free wins anymore (At least that's what it seemed like at the time), as opposed to Lucas, who simply requires too much work to make use of. I'm not dropping him, but I can understand why people are dropping him.

 

[Piipp]

I feel like all Lucas needs is for that ONE person to come up and just perform to the level nobody expected him to. Because Lucas definitely has more potential then what he's given credit for. Think about Scatt, the best Megaman, for a moment. After about a year of Competitive Smash 4 nobody had expected Megaman to come out and do anything really, regardless of skill. But then Scatt comes out and gets top 8 at MLG Finals using Megaman. Nobody expected anything like that to come from a Megaman player, but it happened. The fact of the matter is, that Lucas has potential, and I hope to someday be the one that pushes Lucas' meta to the next level, because I won't drop Lucas. And I feel like if there's anyone that likes him and feels like they can make something happen with him as much as I do, then they shouldn't drop him just because they don't get free wins.

 

[Luco]

I use Lucas as a co-main to my Ness and it's incredibly invaluable. Lucas covers key MUs Ness struggles in like Luigi, Rosa, Sonic and others. Don't think he'll lose any kind of niche that he has, and for the record I think he's significantly better than people believe he is.

 

[that_rock]

Ok, Lucas is good. Really good, and many top smashers agree. So what's the issue? I said it before, and I'll say it again - WE DON'T HAVE REPRESENTATION. The meta involves professional placings, and we have none. We, Lucas mains, are one of the lowest in tourney results on this site.

I'm going to give representation a little relief. Not many people know the Lucas matchup, and that's good. Maybe we'll catch a Ryu off guard. The real thing is his combos...or his lack of. Look, before you flame me and say "NAIRS FOR DAYS" you obviously don't know that Nair can be sdied extremely easily. Sure, if you're playing low level then go ahead, but we're talking about the meta. His aerials aren't 'slow' per say, but the autocanceling is sorely missed. I feel like Lucas can overcome that. This game is mostly reads, and Lucas has a nasty punish game. He can heal, has a good guarenteed kill option, very powerful smashes, amazing recovery, a meteor, very good spacing tools, and can use the lack of matchup experience against opponents. We can see how this character can take out threats from streams at VGBC(Rip Pink D: ) and TLoc(Haxii mboy). SpaceDong in Toronto is holding up strong. The character has evidence that he can go against the best.

So I'm going to state my final verdict: Lucas can survive in the meta. He has the tools to go toe to toe with most top tier characters. His issue is that nobody has put the time in to make him look viable. Nobody put in enough lab time to find out what can link to this or that. That issue is one that hopefully we can solve soon, and we don't need Sakurai to do it.

Cheers for our boy

 

[BornABrawler]

In giving my opinion it's probably going to sound like what most others have said, but that's because it's the truth. But I digress.

Personally I think Lucas CAN survive in the current metagame. He has good enough tools to deal with the majority of the cast and has combos that can lead into large strings and even kills. Granted he's not as good as Sheik but that doesn't mean he can't deal with Sheik. It's kind of a shift of perspective. Honestly I think Lucas is better than Ness as an overall character, but I'm in the minority and I don't want to start an full-blown argument. If we really want Lucas to be respected, we need to have a top player representative to reveal him as a threat. PinkFresh hasn't abandoned Lucas but is currently working on Bayonetta, and Hakii currently being the only one to really push Lucas at a decently high level. Nakat sometimes pulls out Lucas at regionals, but doesn't really do him justice do to the lack of commitment compared to his other characters.

So what do we do? Well at this point we kind of have to take the matters into our own hands. If a top player Lucas main never arises out of what we have now I'm afraid we will stay under the radar. And that's why need to take the initiative to push him ourselves by practicing like hell and going to tournaments, whether they are big or small, online or offline. All I know is I'm not letting my baby boy die any time soon, and I hope you guys share the same sentiments.

I second that; cheers for our boy.

 

[nerdbot]

In my time against some Cloud players I consider very experienced at Smash, I've found Lucas is an incredibly solid matchup for them. He has spacing abilities, he can deal with most of Cloud's approach options, dsmash/PK Thunder/PK Freeze are all great tools for harassing Cloud offstage without sticking your neck out. I also feel like Lucas is a really good matchup for Rosalina, especially in comparison to Ness, who flounders against her.

I can see Lucas eventually becoming somewhat like Toon Link in Brawl, where he has great matchups with certain high tier threats but has issues with the best of the best and a few unfavorable matchups scattered across the cast. Lucas's big problem is that no one really seems to play him at high levels. It's not that he's bad, he's just really under-represented. And a lack of representation becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because there's not any example to follow.

 

[Enjeru Karasu]

I may be a Yoshi main who is only considering using Lucas as my secondary against certain match ups, but this topic is a general one for anyone struggling with their current main like this, so I'll give my thoughts on it.

First off, while it is a little disappointing to see representation of a main and/or character you like go down, the situation for Lucas isn't too bad off. First of all, while there will be no more future DLC, that doesn't mean that there won't be anymore balance patches. While you guys didn't get an upgrade this patch, Lucas did get reduced frames on his grab among other things, which was a pretty significant buff. And more stuff could happen for you in that regard in the future.

Yoshi mains like myself haven't gotten any buffs as more annoying match ups showed up for us to deal with (the worst of them being Cloud). We have a Jigglypuff main in the Yoshi Skype group, and it's much worse for him. At least Lucas and Yoshi are viable characters. Puff is bottom tier and desperately needs some significant buffs. But Puff has gotten nothing worthwhile from patches. Trying to main Puff right now is like trying to fly a hot air balloon in the middle of a fierce storm. You get knocked around all over the place as you try desperately to stay alive. So yeah, while it sucks that some Lucas mains are swapping to other characters, it can always be worse.

Now I'm not going to be like a broken record and repeat everything that video that Shrug put up went over, but it is worth asking yourself why you play smash and want your ultimate goal is. There's always the struggle between wanting to run a lower tier character and wanting to win. A lot of top smashers don't really have character loyalty and just pick top tier characters who suit their style the best. Zero is the most prominent example of this, since he always mains the #1 character in whatever incarnation of Smash he's playing.

For everyone who doesn't run a top tier character, there's always that struggle of wanting to win and wanting to play as a character that you like. It's clear that Pink Fresh wants to main Lucas, since he was his main in PM. But at the same time Pink Fresh wants to place high and do really well, and Bayonetta may be his ticket for doing well at a National tournament. I've had some frustrating moments as Yoshi sometimes, but I like Yoshi and my goal isn't to be the absolute best. I would like to main Samus snd Dr.Mario competitively, since they were my main and secondary back in my non-competitive Melee days. Sadly, Samus has so many flaws that I would need a whole other topic just to talk about them. Dr.Mario isn't as bad as most people make him out to be, but inevitably the question of "is there any reason to run this character over Mario?" pops up, and no one can come up with that many good answers to it.

It's gotten to the point where I myself have begun to pick up Sheik as a pocket top tier... Whwt can we do guys? What can we do...

You've got two options available in regards to competitive Smash. You can swap to a higher tier character and practice as them. Sheik isn't really a pocket character: if you're going to go to the trouble of pulling her out, you might as well play as her from the start and focus on her in practice. If you are going to go to a higher tier though, I would recommend Ness. The transition from Lucas to Ness would be relatively smooth, and it gives you a practical reason to secondary Lucas. As Luco pointed out, Ness does have some bad match ups that Lucas has an easier time dealing with, the worst of them being Rosalina. It's such a commonly known bad match up that one of the tips that can pop up as a battle is loading outright tells Rosa players that they can gimp Ness's recovery with their down b. Every time it pops up I picture the developers laughing as they talk about how hilarious it will be to see Ness players suffer. If you do go this route, you can go to a higher tier while also keeping Lucas around.

The second option is to just stick to your guns and work as hard as you can on your Lucas. It won't be easy for current Lucas mains having to be the innovators of new tech and strategies, but it has to be done if anyone is to do well as Lucas. Although even if there were more examples, you can only go so far with that: you'd likely be in the shadow of the innovators for all time unless if you work super hard and/or come up with things and/or a style that they haven't considered. Every person who has posted in this thread believes in the potential of Lucas. And it's the right attitude to have if you want to do well. You're going to be frustrated at this game from time to time: whether it's placing low at a tournament, annoyance at what a patch did or didn't do, or if unexpected problems come up, there are going to be periods where feel like throwing the controller down in frustraition. It's either give up then and there or find a way to move forward.

So you should give it your all before totally giving up. Do some research, watch replays of Lucas, pay attention to tournaments and learn match ups, learn as much tech as you can as Lucas and improve your fundamentals as much as possible. Every person here who mains or secondaries Lucas here believes that they can move forward despite the challenges ahead. You should do your best to keep up with them.

 

[Kodystri]

I picked him back up and fully believe in his potential now.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not particularly enthusiastic about Lucas' future. For sure don't think he's terrible, but he's definitely underwhelming compared to many other characters and their tools. And like others have said, his representation right now is pretty barebones. He has SpaceDong and Hakii, but those are really it. He needs somebody to get consistently good results with him and show him what he's capable of at top level so his public perception will improve for the better.

 

[that_rock]

I picked him back up and fully believe in his potential now.

I'm not particularly enthusiastic about Lucas' future. For sure don't think he's terrible, but he's definitely underwhelming compared to many other characters and their tools. And like others have said, his representation right now is pretty barebones. He has SpaceDong and Hakii, but those are really it. He needs somebody to get consistently good results with him and show him what he's capable of at top level so his public perception will improve for the better.

I feel like these quotes solve each other. Go Xanos go~

 

[JesterJaded]

Well, it's kind of hard to follow-up after Xanos, but I'm not letting Lucas' low tier placement get me down this early in the game's lifespan. Just a few days from now I'll be attending my local tournament scene again, and I encourage everyone here on the Lucas board to do the same. Let's all work together to further Motherboy's meta, no matter where it takes him

 

[JosePollo]

Lucas is in that strange position where he's not considered good enough for people to pick him up over better characters, while at the same time good enough for people to NOT pick him up because he lacks that low-tier hero "luster" that characters like Samus, Ganon, and Zelda have. Like, you won't be winning much with Lucas at the top level, but it'll be kind of like "whatever" if you win. It's kind of funny.

...which I guess doesn't really have much to do in terms of his meta.

 

[JesterJaded]

For high-level players to consider maining or secondarying Lucas, they need to be able to cover high level matchups better than other characters don't / have a unique gameplan that isn't invalidated because other characters do it better. I think this is why some people use the Ness / Lucas duo because they're more confident in the Rosa / Ryu matchups and the transition is pretty smooth.

That said I don't think Lucas provides anything that isn't simply outclassed by ZSS's kit, except for his anti-zoner properties and smaller hitbox. Of course you could say the same about most of mid tier as well lol, but a lot of the things Lucas has - strong CQC, strong grab combo game, great spacing in neutral, a really good Zair, etc. - ZSS has as well, but better: better jab, better spacing and mobility, better grab reward (but slower grab), better recovery and disadvantage, etc.

 

[Piipp]

Well, it's kind of hard to follow-up after Xanos, but I'm not letting Lucas' low tier placement get me down this early in the game's lifespan. Just a few days from now I'll be attending my local tournament scene again, and I encourage everyone here on the Lucas board to do the same. Let's all work together to further Motherboy's meta, no matter where it takes him

Im going to two tourneys this weekend actually. We're going to show people how viable Lucas really is. #forourboy

 

[JesterJaded]

Im going to two tourneys this weekend actually. We're going to show people how viable Lucas really is. #forourboy

My local scene doesn't have many tournaments or weeklies, so I can't usually attend more than one every two weeks unless I travel. Mississippi why you no Smash scene


Do you solo main Lucas? I can't bring myself to drop Tink, and Cloud is another character I'm fond of due to Melee Marth disjoint nostalgia, though I'm not sure how well that covers my matchups. Tink vs Sheik seems doable though.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Honestly I think Lucas is better than Ness as an overall character, .

I agree with you he is at least as good or better than Ness, but like everyone said he needs representation. Even just one person will do it. Like I don't really see many Pikachu's just really Esam and sometimes Nakat but that is more than enough for people to realize that Pikachu is a great character that can win at a national level.
@ Piipp I hope you do well. Do you know if they will be streamed or uploaded to youtube?

 

[Enjeru Karasu]

My local scene doesn't have many tournaments or weeklies, so I can't usually attend more than one every two weeks unless I travel. Mississippi why you no Smash scene


Do you solo main Lucas? I can't bring myself to drop Tink, and Cloud is another character I'm fond of due to Melee Marth disjoint nostalgia, though I'm not sure how well that covers my matchups. Tink vs Sheik seems doable though.

What match ups do you feel like you need to cover the most? Other then Shiek? Cause that one is always a given. Lol

 

[JesterJaded]

What match ups do you feel like you need to cover the most? Other then Shiek? Cause that one is always a given. Lol

To be thorough, I'll go down the tier list to low-high:

Sheik feels doable for Tink. If we're talking low-level needle spam, just walking with shield prevents me from getting anti-zoner and will usually frustrate the player to approach. If we're talking mid-high level, things start getting tricky with me struggling to keep her at bay, but boomerang and bomb traps will usually let me win Neutral with platforms involved or the return of the boomerang on Smashville / other usually flat stages. Also, Utilts for days.

ZSS is tricky for Lucas IMO, since as I said previously that her kit outclasses his, but I'm pretty confident using Cloud against her with defensively charging limit, then using the increased mobility to pressure her and catch her off guard with blade beam. I can usually punish a whiffed grab with a clutch Finishing Touch this way too. Offstage is kind of a nightmare but w / e.

Compared to Ness, Lucas vs. Rosa seems doable at worse, but I haven't faced a really good Rosa. That said, Cloud seems to be even or favorable.

I'm confident that all three of my characters can outspace Ryu. Basically my favorite matchup.

Pikachu is a bit tricky for Tink and Lucas, but Nair usually catches QA for me and their lack of range is where Lucas' CQC really shines IMO. PKT 1 is free damage offstage where others usually can't safely challenge the rat's recovery, so that's a major plus. I'll probably interchange this with him and Cloud.

I hate Sonic. Mostly from lack of Matchup experience, but I struggle to deal with his mobility. Maybe more Zair and less PK Fire, or just play super defensively with shield baiting, IDK.

I feel like Fox is doable with all three characters, especially offstage using Lucas' PKT 1 to cover side-B. More Utilts for days with Tink, and the neutral isn't too bad either. Cloud outspaces him well enough, plus can contest his mobility in Limit + clutch Limit kills.

Lucas goes pretty even with Mario, IMO. I know fireballs aren't that important in his kit, but completely invalidating that button can only be a boon for us. Zair is particularly effective here, and same with Rat, the lack of range helps our CQC. May interchange this with either alternative characters.



Diddy may be another problem character for me; his neutral and CQC puts Tink's to shame, and I don't have much MU experience to judge how well Lucas does against him. Cloud seems like he might do decently enough though.

I think MK beats Tink, but Lucas' floatiness may help escape his ladders of death. He might also easily beat us offstage though. Not sure about the MK / Cloud MU. Possibly another problem character.

I feel like the Tink and Lucas / Villager matchup is even or slightly in Tink's favor, or in Villager's against Lucas. Still doable though. Unsure about Cloud.

Tink beats Cloud IMO. Especially offstage. We can pressure his limit charging with projectiles, and since they're hit confirms, he can't afford not to shield. We still die ridiculously early, but keeping characters out is what a Tink's supposed to be good at, and Limit whiffs are free Bthrow > gimps. Cloud dittos are fun too.

Lucas beats Ness. Period. There I said it. The neutral is either even or in Lucas' favor. Grab reward is comparable with Ness probably being a bit better. CQC is better, meaning Bthrow should never be free. Ness' disadvantage / advantage may be slightly better due to aerials / PKT1.

But we wreck this kid offstage. It's kind of hilarious. A lot of people like to jank on Ness' recovery, but we can literally eat Ness' PKT1 with our PKT1 with almost no risk, absorb with PSI Magnet, run-off Zair, or just Dsmash the 2-frame. A Bthrow on our end practically kills Ness as early as his Bthrow hills us.

The spread could be a lot worse, so I'm happy with it for now, but I can't help like I should be able to improve on it.

 

[Enjeru Karasu]

To be thorough, I'll go down the tier list to low-high:

Sheik feels doable for Tink. If we're talking low-level needle spam, just walking with shield prevents me from getting anti-zoner and will usually frustrate the player to approach. If we're talking mid-high level, things start getting tricky with me struggling to keep her at bay, but boomerang and bomb traps will usually let me win Neutral with platforms involved or the return of the boomerang on Smashville / other usually flat stages. Also, Utilts for days.

ZSS is tricky for Lucas IMO, since as I said previously that her kit outclasses his, but I'm pretty confident using Cloud against her with defensively charging limit, then using the increased mobility to pressure her and catch her off guard with blade beam. I can usually punish a whiffed grab with a clutch Finishing Touch this way too. Offstage is kind of a nightmare but w / e.

Compared to Ness, Lucas vs. Rosa seems doable at worse, but I haven't faced a really good Rosa. That said, Cloud seems to be even or favorable.

I'm confident that all three of my characters can outspace Ryu. Basically my favorite matchup.

Pikachu is a bit tricky for Tink and Lucas, but Nair usually catches QA for me and their lack of range is where Lucas' CQC really shines IMO. PKT 1 is free damage offstage where others usually can't safely challenge the rat's recovery, so that's a major plus. I'll probably interchange this with him and Cloud.

I hate Sonic. Mostly from lack of Matchup experience, but I struggle to deal with his mobility. Maybe more Zair and less PK Fire, or just play super defensively with shield baiting, IDK.

I feel like Fox is doable with all three characters, especially offstage using Lucas' PKT 1 to cover side-B. More Utilts for days with Tink, and the neutral isn't too bad either. Cloud outspaces him well enough, plus can contest his mobility in Limit + clutch Limit kills.

Lucas goes pretty even with Mario, IMO. I know fireballs aren't that important in his kit, but completely invalidating that button can only be a boon for us. Zair is particularly effective here, and same with Rat, the lack of range helps our CQC. May interchange this with either alternative characters.



Diddy may be another problem character for me; his neutral and CQC puts Tink's to shame, and I don't have much MU experience to judge how well Lucas does against him. Cloud seems like he might do decently enough though.

I think MK beats Tink, but Lucas' floatiness may help escape his ladders of death. He might also easily beat us offstage though. Not sure about the MK / Cloud MU. Possibly another problem character.

I feel like the Tink and Lucas / Villager matchup is even or slightly in Tink's favor, or in Villager's against Lucas. Still doable though. Unsure about Cloud.

Tink beats Cloud IMO. Especially offstage. We can pressure his limit charging with projectiles, and since they're hit confirms, he can't afford not to shield. We still die ridiculously early, but keeping characters out is what a Tink's supposed to be good at, and Limit whiffs are free Bthrow > gimps. Cloud dittos are fun too.

Lucas beats Ness. Period. There I said it. The neutral is either even or in Lucas' favor. Grab reward is comparable with Ness probably being a bit better. CQC is better, meaning Bthrow should never be free. Ness' disadvantage / advantage may be slightly better due to aerials / PKT1.

But we wreck this kid offstage. It's kind of hilarious. A lot of people like to jank on Ness' recovery, but we can literally eat Ness' PKT1 with our PKT1 with almost no risk, absorb with PSI Magnet, run-off Zair, or just Dsmash the 2-frame. A Bthrow on our end practically kills Ness as early as his Bthrow hills us.

The spread could be a lot worse, so I'm happy with it for now, but I can't help like I should be able to improve on it.

Despite maining different characters,
we view a lot of match ups in a similar light. Well Toon link is one of the final characters I'm considering for my secondary, so that may have something to do with it. I won't go over all the characters you listed, just the ones you've had trouble with.

Sonic: Yeah, we Yoshi's really don't like this match up in the slightest. He's too fast to zone out properly and he has priority on most of his moves. Believe it or not, playing super defensively all the time isn't the way to go. There are moments where you have to play like that, but you've got to be prepared to swap tactics at the drop of a hat, since Sonic can close the distance so fast. Basically what it comes down to is that you have to slow him down and not give him a lot of room to run, camp when he has a substantial lead, etc.

Control his speed and limit his movement, and set the pace of the match. You should only play super defensively when you have to, although charging in recklessly is going to get you hurt. Toon Link is really good at this match up it seems, since I've seen multiple examples of them being to zone Sonic out and set the pace in various ways, using their projectiles in various ways along with their z air and overall speed to set the pace. TL isn't Sonic fast, but he's speedy enough to get to where he wants to be. Playing too super defensively works in Sonic's favor: it basically comes down to just slowing them down with various tactics. Go see for yourself: there's a few Toon Link Vs. Sonic videos up on YouTube where Toon Link is able to deal with Sonic realativelh well. And before you ask, it isn't just Hyuga's toon link who I found doing this. More then a few TL's seem to handle Sonic really well, so I'm pretty sure it means that it's a match up in the favor of TL. Dunno for sure though.

Diddy..... -shudders- As of right now, that's Yoshi's worse match up. As annoying as Sheik can be to face, I feel like Diddy was made to counter Yoshi specifically. Worst yet, none of the secondaries I'm interested in right now have an advantage against him: at best they're just even, although it seems like I'm interested in characters that have a bad match up against the little monkey. I've heard Luigi has an easier time against him, and I did main him before swapping to Yoshi. I don't really want to pick him up again just to deal with Diddy though. I dropped Luigi back when his downthrow was the best throw in the game just because he didn't match the play style I wanted. Although at this rate I might have to use him just for that one match up.

All my frustrations at the monkey aside, I can only give you some general advice that helps a little bit, since I don't too much experience with facing Diddy when I'm not Yoshi, especially as Lucas or Cloud. Screwing up their banana game helps: hitting it with a projectile to make it vanish or grabbing it at the right time and using it can throw him off a little bit. And be every wary of the f air wall, grabs, etc. I do think could could handle him well too: see how that pans out.

That's basically all I have to say in that regard. You know your characters match ups better then I do.

 

[JesterJaded]

Despite maining different characters,
we view a lot of match ups in a similar light. Well Toon link is one of the final characters I'm considering for my secondary, so that may have something to do with it. I won't go over all the characters you listed, just the ones you've had trouble with.

Sonic: Yeah, we Yoshi's really don't like this match up in the slightest. He's too fast to zone out properly and he has priority on most of his moves. Believe it or not, playing super defensively all the time isn't the way to go. There are moments where you have to play like that, but you've got to be prepared to swap tactics at the drop of a hat, since Sonic can close the distance so fast. Basically what it comes down to is that you have to slow him down and not give him a lot of room to run, camp when he has a substantial lead, etc.

Control his speed and limit his movement, and set the pace of the match. You should only play super defensively when you have to, although charging in recklessly is going to get you hurt. Toon Link is really good at this match up it seems, since I've seen multiple examples of them being to zone Sonic out and set the pace in various ways, using their projectiles in various ways along with their z air and overall speed to set the pace. TL isn't Sonic fast, but he's speedy enough to get to where he wants to be. Playing too super defensively works in Sonic's favor: it basically comes down to just slowing them down with various tactics. Go see for yourself: there's a few Toon Link Vs. Sonic videos up on YouTube where Toon Link is able to deal with Sonic realativelh well. And before you ask, it isn't just Hyuga's toon link who I found doing this. More then a few TL's seem to handle Sonic really well, so I'm pretty sure it means that it's a match up in the favor of TL. Dunno for sure though.

Diddy..... -shudders- As of right now, that's Yoshi's worse match up. As annoying as Sheik can be to face, I feel like Diddy was made to counter Yoshi specifically. Worst yet, none of the secondaries I'm interested in right now have an advantage against him: at best they're just even, although it seems like I'm interested in characters that have a bad match up against the little monkey. I've heard Luigi has an easier time against him, and I did main him before swapping to Yoshi. I don't really want to pick him up again just to deal with Diddy though. I dropped Luigi back when his downthrow was the best throw in the game just because he didn't match the play style I wanted. Although at this rate I might have to use him just for that one match up.

All my frustrations at the monkey aside, I can only give you some general advice that helps a little bit, since I don't too much experience with facing Diddy when I'm not Yoshi, especially as Lucas or Cloud. Screwing up their banana game helps: hitting it with a projectile to make it vanish or grabbing it at the right time and using it can throw him off a little bit. And be every wary of the f air wall, grabs, etc. I do think could could handle him well too: see how that pans out.

That's basically all I have to say in that regard. You know your characters match ups better then I do.

After watching a few matches, yeah, I'm starting to see what you mean with the Tink / Sonic matchup. Tink's able to throw out a lot of hitboxes in the neutral that Sonic has to be careful not to run into, and his decent mobility makes it harder than usual for Sonic to close that gap - long enough to take a pivot bomb to the face, anyway. It also looks like Sonic kind of struggles to seal a kill against TL, whereas our bomb and boomerang confirms get more and more dangerous with rage if Sonic's kept at the kill% window. It seems more doable to me now.

As for Diddy... I'm gonna see where Cloud goes in that matchup. M2K makes it seem doable, at the very least, but M2K's M2K. If not, I may switch out for Tink and try to out-neutral him. Hopefully my scene hasn't gotten a good Diddy player.

 

[Enjeru Karasu]

. I'm gonna see where Cloud goes in that matchup. M2K makes it seem doable, at the very least, but M2K's M2K. If not, I may switch out for Tink and try to out-neutral him. Hopefully my scene hasn't gotten a good Diddy player.

Well depending on how far you go, you're going to run into a Diddy eventually no matter what. It's easy to avoid certain match ups at locals depending on where you are. At the higher level tournaments though, more people converge, so you're going to have a more diverse pool of players and match ups. I attended Genesis 3 and intend to attend EVO 2016 eventually. If I manage to improve my game enough where I can actually make it out of pools, it's all the more likely that I'll run into a Diddy main sooner or later. Also, one guy in the Smash crew I'm in may end up swapping to Diddy. Not to mention my region has at least one pretty notable Diddy that does go to local tournaments in addition to national ones. So I'm going to have to face the monkey no matter what.

M2K's Cloud is definitely s cut above the vast majority of Clouds. Although going from experience on fighting Cloud, I don't think he'll have a disadvantage against Diddy. Can't really say much other then that.

 

[that_rock]

Lucas probably belongs in B tier, once he gets recognition. He has matchups that, without a doubt, you can solo main and do perfectly fine. However, a secondary is recommended.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Lucas probably belongs in B tier, once he gets recognition. He has matchups that, without a doubt, you can solo main and do perfectly fine. However, a secondary is recommended.

It's probably only 2 or 3 match-ups that might need a secondary. Diddy, Cloud and maybe sheik come to mind.

 

[DE235]

Good news everyone Pinkfresh still uses Lucas. Just played him in xanadu

 

[Y2Kay]

My local scene doesn't have many tournaments or weeklies, so I can't usually attend more than one every two weeks unless I travel. Mississippi why you no Smash scene


Do you solo main Lucas? I can't bring myself to drop Tink, and Cloud is another character I'm fond of due to Melee Marth disjoint nostalgia, though I'm not sure how well that covers my matchups. Tink vs Sheik seems doable though.

he also uses falco and DK

back to the shadows I go

whoosh

 

[Piipp]

My local scene doesn't have many tournaments or weeklies, so I can't usually attend more than one every two weeks unless I travel. Mississippi why you no Smash scene


Do you solo main Lucas? I can't bring myself to drop Tink, and Cloud is another character I'm fond of due to Melee Marth disjoint nostalgia, though I'm not sure how well that covers my matchups. Tink vs Sheik seems doable though.

Nah Flaco and Dk for different mu's. I also love them as characters lol

 

[lui3k]

damn it lucas...

 

[EmpireCrusher203]

We're all screwed...

At least Lucas is mid tier, that's not that bad. We just need to keep on exploring his moveset and frame data and see if we can discover anything new.

 

[NekoJubei]

Lucas does have the potential, he just isnt represented much. He isn't low tier or anything, is impossible. I guess is because people like to pick up different characters or something, which is fine we can't obligate people.

I guess is just not our time now.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Lucas is just like Greninja and Peach.
You NEED that one person to show the world what Lucas can do.
Problem is, why would you when you can 5,99 and play Payonetta or Frloud?

 

[abx]

Because winning with an overlooked character is much more satisfying.

 

[EmpireCrusher203]

Hopefully Mekos can help us. He's attending Pound in one week. Maybe he can help with Lucas's representation. He was a really good in Brawl. Can't wait to see how he does in his first Smash 4 tournament!

Other than Pink Fresh and Mekos, there are pratically no pro Lucas. Sure a few of you have gone to local tournament, but what about huge tournaments like Shots Fired.

 

[JosePollo]

Like many have said, all Lucas really needs is someone who can utilize and optimize the tricks and options he has at his disposal. Stuff like footstool combos, kill confirms off of grabs even as early as 40% (it's possible against characters with poor recovery if you do down throw to weak to meteor bair), up smash parries against multi-hit moves, his zoning tools in fair, zair, and PK Fire, etc.

I'm personally of the idea that Lucas is very much capable of taking a national, just not many people have spent enough time or prefer taking the "easy" route with higher-tier characters.

 

[PKBeam]

This is still the first tier list. The tier list will stabilise over a span of time.
From there we need multiple players attending tourneys with Lucas and we need at least some decent results in majors if we ever want to see Lucas in high tier, like FAE/PF/Mekos in Brawl; there's a reason the top players know to hold up if they get Daired over 80%.

What would help greatly is becoming consistent with Lucas' 0-death setups. Even if you only use it once every 50 matches, such a powerful tool can greatly change the public perspective on Lucas, especially in a metagame leaning towards two stock rulesets.

You can see it in the Japanese Brawl tier list. Lucas is +6 (out of 38) from NTSC-U to NTSC-J because not only were there more players, but they perfected his tech (wavezaps and edgehog -> dusterslide getup) and even started getting Dtilt locks off Nair at 30%.

 

[Piipp]

Hopefully Mekos can help us. He's attending Pound in one week. Maybe he can help with Lucas's representation. He was a really good in Brawl. Can't wait to see how he does in his first Smash 4 tournament!

Other than Pink Fresh and Mekos, there are pratically no pro Lucas. Sure a few of you have gone to local tournament, but what about huge tournaments like Shots Fired.

Well Nakat and FOW both have pocket Lucas'

 

[BornABrawler]

Well Nakat and FOW both have pocket Lucas'

That's true, but they really haven't had any big placings with Lucas; especially not solo Lucas. They really only use him when they believe the matchup is better in Lucas's favor, which is not a lot apparently. I think Nakat got a pretty decent placing with Lucas recently (Honestly don't remember), and FOW hasn't really touched Lucas during tournament at all. Not to bash them as players for not putting more time into Lucas, but I would not consider them "pro Lucas's" at this point in time. Just in my opinion.

 

[frozentreasure]

Nakat won Battlegrounds 2 a couple of days ago using Lucas; and when I say "using Lucas", I mean he used Lucas against Jbandrew in grand finals because he knew that Jband wouldn't be as familiar. Nakat won because he's a great player, but his Lucas was incredibly bread-and-butter.