The future of Clones and What Can Be Done.

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I liked Falco in Brawl waaaay better than in Melee, yet Project M had to go and degenerate him into a complete clone again. Why? Was it for balancing purposes? Ya know, a game doesn't have to be perfectly balanced to be fun. If you enjoy using powerful characters, then you're smart, not a noob. If you enjoy using less powerful characters, then that really shows how skilled you are at the game. Neither side should be demonised.

Because people enjoyed playing his Melee incarnation despite him being a clone. Also his play style is vastly different from Fox so it is acceptable.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

Lucas doesn't feel like Ness at all. try to main Ness or Lucas, and try to transition. it's like playing Mario, and moving to Ganondorf. this isn't just a change in stats, it's a change in moves and useability as well.

I can play Falco, than Jigglypuff no problem, and Metaknight then Marth. All those characters are very different, yet I have no problem. You're overreacting.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

Actually no, I'm not. When you play either at a high level, you can't just switch between the two and play with the same style. Playing Lucas at a high level, will always be different playing Ness at a high level. Same goes for the other "clones". I can see how the difference might not be seen by casual players though.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

Actually no, I'm not. When you play either at a high level, you can't just switch between the two and play with the same style. Playing Lucas at a high level, will always be different playing Ness at a high level. Same goes for the other "clones". I can see how the difference might not be seen by casual players though.

Except i'm not casual...... I find it ironic actually that so called high leveled players have trouble switching while casuals don't. I see the difference between them, it's just not big enough. Strawmen.......

 

[Souless_shadow]

I think clones are ok just as long as they are made different enough to be played differently. Just like how Toon Link is faster than Link and has different air attacks as well.

 

[DaDavid]

Except i'm not casual...... I find it ironic actually that so called high leveled players have trouble switching while casuals don't. I see the difference between them, it's just not big enough. Strawmen.......

It's not ironic, you just aren't playing the characters at as high a level as viewtiful is talking about. I don't mean to sound presumptuous, but it is incredibly difficult to master two or more characters.

I have no problem switching between characters among my friends, in fact I usually pick random, but it's not the same as trying to compete at a high level with those characters. And even if you are that damn good at multiple characters, you have to acknowledge that your playstyle has to change when you pick different characters, which is all he's saying.

Again, I hate to sound like some sort of elitist, but it is just a well known fact that mastery of a single Smash character is not mastery of them all.

 

[Protom]

I'm really fine with the current clones, and wouldn't care if we get new ones, as long as it's only one or two.
Except ganon. He needs to reworked in some way I feel.

 

[Jumpman84]

It's not ironic, you just aren't playing the characters at as high a level as viewtiful is talking about. I don't mean to sound presumptuous, but it is incredibly difficult to master two or more characters.

I have no problem switching between characters among my friends, in fact I usually pick random, but it's not the same as trying to compete at a high level with those characters. And even if you are that damn good at multiple characters, you have to acknowledge that your playstyle has to change when you pick different characters, which is all he's saying.

Again, I hate to sound like some sort of elitist, but it is just a well known fact that mastery of a single Smash character is not mastery of them all.

I don't think you're an elitest at all. What you're saying rings true. I try to have six mains in each Smash game and I know that each one has to be played in a different way.

As for clones, I love them and I hope the ones cut from Melee return.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

It's not ironic, you just aren't playing the characters at as high a level as viewtiful is talking about. I don't mean to sound presumptuous, but it is incredibly difficult to master two or more characters.

I have no problem switching between characters among my friends, in fact I usually pick random, but it's not the same as trying to compete at a high level with those characters. And even if you are that damn good at multiple characters, you have to acknowledge that your playstyle has to change when you pick different characters, which is all he's saying.

Again, I hate to sound like some sort of elitist, but it is just a well known fact that mastery of a single Smash character is not mastery of them all.

I'm not saying that their playstyles are the same. How a character feels, and how they play can be different. I have no doubt that Lucas has an extremely different playstyle than Ness, but that's not the subject at hand.

 

[DaDavid]

I'm not saying that their playstyles are the same. How a character feels, and how they play can be different. I have no doubt that Lucas has an extremely different playstyle than Ness, but that's not the subject at hand.

Then I suppose I'll need you to offer some sort of distinction. But first, so I'm clear, what you're saying is that Lucas and Ness feel too similarly for you?

To me, the way a character feels, or discovering that feeling, is sort of the first step towards finding a play style that works for that character, so in essence, two characters that feel similarly do not have different play styles and vice versa. So if I'm clear and you're saying that Lucas and Ness feel similar enough to be considered clones, but have different play styles, then I just don't see it.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

Then I suppose I'll need you to offer some sort of distinction. But first, so I'm clear, what you're saying is that Lucas and Ness feel too similarly for you?

To me, the way a character feels, or discovering that feeling, is sort of the first step towards finding a play style that works for that character, so in essence, two characters that feel similarly do not have different play styles and vice versa. So if I'm clear and you're saying that Lucas and Ness feel similar enough to be considered clones, but have different play styles, then I just don't see it.

*semi clones. And yes. How a character feels is not the same as playstyle. Mario and Luigi feel the same but have different movesets.

 

[mimgrim]

Then I suppose I'll need you to offer some sort of distinction. But first, so I'm clear, what you're saying is that Lucas and Ness feel too similarly for you?

To me, the way a character feels, or discovering that feeling, is sort of the first step towards finding a play style that works for that character, so in essence, two characters that feel similarly do not have different play styles and vice versa. So if I'm clear and you're saying that Lucas and Ness feel similar enough to be considered clones, but have different play styles, then I just don't see it.

Actually no.

Ness and Lucas actually have very similar physics yet play differently.

Ness is more air based while Lucase is more ground based.

 

[Empyrean]

I actually would really like to see a few more clones. It basically gives me more options when there's something I slightly dislike about a particular character. I also wouldn't mind if they gave a few of the current clones the Falco treatment, but I do wish that Falco gets his shine back.

To be completely honest, I would not be upset in the slightest if Ganon's moveset remained unchanged. However, over the years, it has become obvious that Ganon has the most hated moveset in any Smash Bros to date, and it's not hard to see why.

 

[DaDavid]

Alright then that's what the distinction needed to be for me. A characters physics are not what I refer to when I say "feels," though it seems that is what you guys were referring to.

Given that clarification then okay, we're not actually saying different things.

 

[Sonicthesneak]

Clones to me aren't inherently bad. But they should make sense.

To be fair, all of them in Brawl... do make sense... except for Capt. Ganon. I know it was a must for Melee... but by Brawl, it's something that should have been addressed. But beside him, I don't really mind.

And for me, there is a "tier" list for Clones. They are Clones/Costume swaps, Clones as in Semi-Clones and unique characters.

Level 1 Clone - Wario & Warioware Wario, Mario & Dr. Mario in Project: M, Wii Fit Trainer and Mii Fit Trainer*
Level 2 Clone (Semi-Clone) - Mario & Luigi, Fox & Falco, Ness & Lucas, C. Falcon & Ganondorf
Not a Clone - Everyone else.

*If he is a playable character.

Some "clones" in Smash 4 would make total sense. Like what happened to Dr. Mario in P:M, Lucina as a swap for Marth, Ninten could be for Ness, etc.

I'm not looking forward to many Semi-Clones in Smash 4 though. I don't see many characters left who would make good Semi-Clones.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

It's not ironic, you just aren't playing the characters at as high a level as viewtiful is talking about. I don't mean to sound presumptuous, but it is incredibly difficult to master two or more characters.

I have no problem switching between characters among my friends, in fact I usually pick random, but it's not the same as trying to compete at a high level with those characters. And even if you are that damn good at multiple characters, you have to acknowledge that your play-style has to change when you pick different characters, which is all he's saying.

Again, I hate to sound like some sort of elitist, but it is just a well known fact that mastery of a single Smash character is not mastery of them all.

This, is the point I was making. If you play a character at a high enough level, you will know that they play nothing a like, and alternating between the two with the same amount of skill will be difficult. that's why it's so difficult to actually be GOOD with multiple characters. it's easy to just play characters, but when you acheive mastery of any character, you can't just pick up that play-style and transition. it's never a seamless transition, even between clones and semi clones.

 

[DragonRob20]

Clones are honestly really lazy development. I can understand Melee because it was a semi-launch title for a system and they had to add as much characters as possible. But I feel in 2014 with better development kits and such, we shouldnt have to be suffering from clones. Playstation all-stars only had 1 clone (Cole/Evil Cole) and they felt unique. Whats Sakurai's excuse? Tho I think Brawl did a good job making the clones more unique. I like Falco over fox and Ness over Lucas. They really feel different when I use them. Tho Gannon as a C.Falcon clone is just super lazy. Especially since fans have begged G-dorf to wield a sword <_<.

 

[Eight Melodies]

Smash doesn't follow Mother canon when it comes to the moves of its characters so there was no reason for Lucas to share any moves with Ness. And don't get me started on Ganondorf.

 

[majora_787]

Smash doesn't follow Mother canon when it comes to the moves of its characters so there was no reason for Lucas to share any moves with Ness. And don't get me started on Ganondorf.

At least Lucas was on the "close enough to not even being a semi-clone that it hardly even matters" area next to Wolf. I mean they could use unique final smashes and whatnot but really the main problems are with Ganondorf and Falco off the top of my head when it comes to clones. They both should be a lot more standalone than they actually are.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Man I love what they did with toon link in project m. I pretty much want project m toon link in sm4sh. Also he should be able to crawl like in windwaker. A man can dream. Honestly I kinda like clones. It'd be even better if characters like Wolf and Doc were just alt costumes rather than going through the trouble of giving them different physics and move properties. Thats just my opinion though. I've always preferred quantity over quality. I cant resist fighting games that boast 50+ characters.

 

[JediLink]

Try not to double post. If you need to add more, just edit your existing post please.

And you shouldn't backseat mod. Oh wait...

On topic, I'm all for every character feeling unique. Toon Link getting Deku Leaf would be awesome as hell if it's useful and his moveset is properly balanced around it.

I don't want characters being different just for the sake of it though. Falco kicking his reflector and Mario's Fludd made them different, sure, but it also made those moves worse/useless. That's something we want to avoid.

 

[guedes the brawler]

the clone terms is bad for smash because there is no right definition.

It might not be okay to define Clones like we do in Street Fighter or so, because those games have many more special moves and normals feel more generic

 

[viewtifulduck82]

Man I love what they did with toon link in project m. I pretty much want project m toon link in sm4sh. Also he should be able to crawl like in windwaker. A man can dream. Honestly I kinda like clones. It'd be even better if characters like Wolf and Doc were just alt costumes rather than going through the trouble of giving them different physics and move properties. Thats just my opinion though. I've always preferred quantity over quality. I cant resist fighting games that boast 50+ characters.

If alt costumes were the way to go, I don't think we would get different characters as alternates. like fox and wolf, wouldn't really make too much sense. especially when they barely share any moves. Doc, makes perfect sense as an alternate though.

 

[Dr. Krumm]

I don't mind clones at all, however I do mind clones that should not be clones. The only one that comes to mind is Ganondorf. It's not a secret that he was a late inclusion to Melee, probably one of the last ones. Thus he was made like Captain Falcon. However I think this is sad, I feel like Ganondorf has never been justified in the Smash series, he is a character with tons of potential that Sakurai seems to ignore (seriously, we've seen him throw lightning bolts, teleport, possess, cause earth quakes, fight with swords and tridents). I was disappointed to see him as a clone in Brawl.

Hope they do him justice in Smash 4 (if Ganondorf is in it).

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm fine with Brawl's clones except for Captain Falcondorf. They should move that moveset over to Black Shadow or Blood Falcon and start from scratch for Ganondorf. (Blue pig Gannon anyone?)

 

[CrossoverMan]

I honestly wouldn't really give two thwomps whether or not they give Ganondorf a new moveset, as long as they change his stupid ass running animation.

 

[ErenJager]

Sakurai will execute order 66.

Meh, "Semi-clones" are fine, they add a little more meat and potatoes to the roster and probably don't require as much development time. I personally don't mind "cloned" characters, rather enjoy them actually.

Personally, I would however like to see Ganondorf receive a new move set with more magic and perhaps a sword. I feel like his old move set could be given to Black Shadow from the F-Zero series. This seems logical and appealing to me, but that's just my own personal preference.

 

[Empyrean]

As long as Ganon keeps Flame Choke, d-tilt, f-tilt, fair and dair, I'd be fine with any other change.