The DI/VI Naming Debate

[Chiroz]

Well, I honestly don't care anymore if it's called whatever. I think Conda has a point that if commentators call it DI in tournaments then it will actually stay DI in everyone's mind. Going against what the commentators will call it will make people even more confused. I would personally prefer it not be called DI, but if I hear commentators/streamers saying DI, I will call it DI.

 

[Conda]

Meaning that you feel VI is winning because of a lack of awareness because the rest aren't not mentioned in the OP? Nah, man, VI is winning because more people like it to be called VI.

Also, the fact that the explanation for VI in the OP is present, but not the argument for naming it that, just screams 'subjective' to me. If you truly want to give every name a fair chance, shouldn't you give both sides of the argument and leave it to people to decide which they find most compelling? Yet the OP has clearly left out any arguments for VI and only included the ones that support his decision. Luckily it doesn't seem to be working very well, because VI is still ousting others for the top choice. That's good, because the OP is a pissy

Speaking off-the-cuff, yeah. I'm going to come at this from the outside-the-box-looking-in angle of "Hmmm, why are we doing this thing we are doing?"

The name caught on because a thread was posted about it, and then people went to streams - such as ZeRos - and asked about VI. ZeRo obviously referred to it as VI to answer their questions and talk about it, and everyone started freaking out about how matches would get long - because of something radically "NEW" called "Vectoring" and "VI". It was the perfect strange, glitchy, antagonistically complex-sounding name it needed to be to catch on virally in the online videogame verse.
It was, and still is, a tabloid-esque headline topic to talk about in shocking terms, with little actual data being gathered and discussed calmly.

The history of the name "VI" will forever go down as being chosen "because someone picked it to make it sound 'new and technical', and streams/forums blew up with the name as a controversial-sounding conversation-starting name."

It's a bad name, and if we stopped for a second to chill out, we'd realize it's just the new redesigned DI mechanic that replaced the old simpler version of DI. It's not actually something 'new' - like when Hunters got 'focus' in WoW - a resource that acted radically different, changed their entire class gameplay, and actually had a characteristic and fitting replacement name. VI is not that type of mechanics change, and the name is especially not worthy of selling its case.

It's silly to let virality be the sole reason VI is chosen - "because people are calling it VI on streams." Of course they are, it's exciting and people love bashing the mechanic for being the 'bad' thing they were waiting for to pop up in Smash 4.
That is a wholly bad defense for keeping VI as the name.

Basically: Of course it is winning the vote, it is today's headline tabloid topic and it has a 'cool-yet-controversial'-sounding technical name. It's a south-park-ian event and it's funny that it has actually been catching on for the few days its been around.

 

[Chiroz]

Speaking off-the-cuff, yeah. I'm going to come at this from the outside-the-box-looking-in angle of "Hmmm, why are we doing this thing we are doing?"

The name caught on because a thread was posted about it, and then people went to streams - such as ZeRos - and asked about VI. ZeRo obviously referred to it as VI to answer their questions and talk about it, and everyone started freaking out about how matches would get long - because of something radically "NEW" called "Vectoring" and "VI". It because, and still is, a tabloid-esque headline topic to talk about in shocking terms, with little data being discussed.

The history of the name "VI" will forever go down as being chosen "because someone picked it and streams/forums blew up with "VI" as a shocking and conversation-starting name."

It's a bad name, and if we stopped for a second to chill out, we'd realize it's just the new redesigned DI mechanic that replaced the old simpler version of DI. It's not actually something 'new' - like when Hunters got 'focus' in WoW - a resource that acted radically different, changed their entire class gameplay, and actually had a characteristic and fitting replacement name. VI is not that type of mechanics change, and the name is especially not worthy of selling its case.

It's silly to let virality be the sole reason VI is chosen - "because people are calling it VI on streams." Of course they are, it's exciting and people love bashing the mechanic for being the 'bad' thing they were waiting for to pop up in Smash 4.
That is a wholly bad defense for keeping VI as the name.

Not to be nitpicky but in your WoW example Focus was almost literally the same as Energy with the a different recovery rate. They could have called it energy and just refer to it as "Hunter energy" and "Rogue energy". In fact they could have called everything "mana" since everything works the same with just a few minor differences. You get resource, you spend resource, you get more resource.

They named it differently so you understood there were differences in how they were used. Which is exactly why I think it shouldn't be named DI.

I understand your fear that Vector might not be the best name for the technique, but I do think calling it "DI" is confusing.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I honestly don't care what an online poll says, I will still call it DI. It's not confusing.

 

[Conda]

Not to be nitpicky but in your WoW example Focus was almost literally the same as Energy with the a different recovery rate. They could have called it energy and just refer to it as "Hunter energy" and "Rogue energy". In fact they could have called everything "mana" since everything works the same with just a few minor differences. You get resource, you spend resource, you get more resource.

They named it differently so you understood there were differences in how they were used. Which is exactly why I think it shouldn't be named DI.

I understand your fear that Vector might not be the best name for the technique, but I do think calling it "DI" is confusing.

No, they named it differently because energy and focus existed in the same game. You can't have two different forms of energy in the same game because there are pieces of gear that give benefits to one and not the other. They needed to separate them for obvious ingame reasons - thus they called the hunter version 'focus' and everything was dandy.

Old DI isn't in Smash 4, so there's no risk of overlap. There's no point to rename it for distinction, because there's no overlap.
It's like saying we can't call the longjumps in Mario 3D World "Long Jumps", because they utilize inputs differently than they did in Mario 64. It's a long jump. Long jump 4.0, but a long jump nonetheless.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

To me, either Knockback Influence or, to sound more officially Smash-like, Launch Influence make more sense. Directional Influence no longer describes what it actually does.

Speaking of that, SDI is a stupid name. Smash Directional Influence does not describe what it does at all. It does describe the input used ("Smashing" the control stick, as in a Smash Attack or a Smash Side Special), but doesn't describe how it works. Smash 4 has the right idea in calling it "Hitstun Shuffling", but the most accurate term to describe what we currently call "Smash Directional Influence" is actually Hitlag Shuffling. In fact, Smash 4 also has an official name for what we call "Shield SDI". It's "Shieldstun Shuffling", and this one actually makes the most sense by far in terms of naming.

Although, someone mentioned in the Vectoring/VI/new DI thread that there's a possibility that it actually influences your movement by teleporting you at intervals during your launch, rather than actually changing the trajectory at all. If so, Smash 4 could possibly have combined "SDI" and "DI" into one thing, which would mean that Hitstun Shuffling is an accurate term for both and actually describes both of them perfectly.

Speaking of official names, Smash 4 terminology says that a Short Hop is officially called a "Low Jump".

 

[MushroomKiller]

Speaking off-the-cuff, yeah. I'm going to come at this from the outside-the-box-looking-in angle of "Hmmm, why are we doing this thing we are doing?"

The name caught on because a thread was posted about it, and then people went to streams - such as ZeRos - and asked about VI. ZeRo obviously referred to it as VI to answer their questions and talk about it, and everyone started freaking out about how matches would get long - because of something radically "NEW" called "Vectoring" and "VI". It because, and still is, a tabloid-esque headline topic to talk about in shocking terms, with little data being discussed.

The history of the name "VI" will forever go down as being chosen "because someone picked it and streams/forums blew up with "VI" as a shocking and conversation-starting name."

It's a bad name, and if we stopped for a second to chill out, we'd realize it's just the new redesigned DI mechanic that replaced the old simpler version of DI. It's not actually something 'new' - like when Hunters got 'focus' in WoW - a resource that acted radically different, changed their entire class gameplay, and actually had a characteristic and fitting replacement name. VI is not that type of mechanics change, and the name is especially not worthy of selling its case.

It's silly to let virality be the sole reason VI is chosen - "because people are calling it VI on streams." Of course they are, it's exciting and people love bashing the mechanic for being the 'bad' thing they were waiting for to pop up in Smash 4.
That is a wholly bad defense for keeping VI as the name.

Hmm... But can you PROVE PROVE PROVE it to me that VI is the most popular choice simply because of "virality"? Unless the majority of the people who voted VI come out and say, "We really only call it that because ZeRo said it first!", I don't see you think your argument that VI garnered traction because of ZeRo's/other person's stream is really a legitimate one. I for one first saw it through Strong Bad's post, and haven't even watched ZeRo' stream yet, mostly because streams don't interest me.

Oh, and I stopped to chill out a long time ago. And I HAVE realized it's the new redesigned DI mechanics - which is precisely why it can't be called DI anymore!

Now as for whether VI is a bad name, I can't fault you on that opinion. I come from a school that taught me the concept of vectors when I was 15, and as someone who LIKES math, I have no problem at all with it being called VI, as I don't find it unnecessarily complicated. But I understand that's just me Equally, I have no problem with the name being KI or FI or whatever the people want to call it... AS LONG as it's not DI

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Hmm... But can you PROVE PROVE PROVE it to me that VI is the most popular choice simply because of "virality"? Unless the majority of the people who voted VI come out and say, "We really only call it that because ZeRo said it first!", I don't see you think your argument that VI garnered traction because of ZeRo's/other person's stream is really a legitimate one. I for one first saw it through Strong Bad's post, and haven't even watched ZeRo' stream yet, mostly because streams don't interest me.

Oh, and I stopped to chill out a long time ago. And I HAVE realized it's the new redesigned DI mechanics - which is precisely why it can't be called DI anymore!

Now as for whether VI is a bad name, I can't fault you on that opinion. I come from a school that taught me the concept of vectors when I was 15, and as someone who LIKES math, I have no problem at all with it being called VI, as I don't find it unnecessarily complicated. But I understand that's just me Equally, I have no problem with the name being KI or FI or whatever the people want to call it... AS LONG as it's not DI

No...that's precisely why it can be called DI, because there is no overlap of the old DI mechanics present, thus no confusion.

To me, either Knockback Influence or, to sound more officially Smash-like, Launch Influence make more sense. Directional Influence no longer describes what it actually does.

Speaking of that, SDI is a stupid name. Smash Directional Influence does not describe what it does at all. It does describe the input used ("Smashing" the control stick, as in a Smash Attack or a Smash Side Special), but doesn't describe how it works. Smash 4 has the right idea in calling it "Hitstun Shuffling", but the most accurate term to describe what we currently call "Smash Directional Influence" is actually Hitlag Shuffling. In fact, Smash 4 also has an official name for what we call "Shield SDI". It's "Shieldstun Shuffling", and this one actually makes the most sense by far in terms of naming.

Although, someone mentioned in the Vectoring/VI/new DI thread that there's a possibility that it actually influences your movement by teleporting you at intervals during your launch, rather than actually changing the trajectory at all. If so, Smash 4 could possibly have combined "SDI" and "DI" into one thing, which would mean that Hitstun Shuffling is an accurate term for both and actually describes both of them perfectly.

Speaking of official names, Smash 4 terminology says that a Short Hop is officially called a "Low Jump".

The point of a term is not to describe how it works, though. It's to simply to describe what it is, as simply and thought-forward as possible. In science one thing that is said (when writing papers or research) is that when you present a finding or write a report, the shortest possible summation is the best way. Complex wordings and thought rambling tends to do very poorly in the profession.

Smash DI is called Smash DI only because it's DI that's used on a smash attack, it makes sense I would think.

Also..."low jump" is essentially synonymous to "short hop" so it's not really important that we address a naming issue there...short hop was simply a more used term in the FGC when smash came around, so it passed through to Smash.

 

[Conda]

Shuffling is cool too, but again - we generally don't go with what Sakurai names things as the way we should call them. I'm not sure why, but it's likely because things were called silly names back in the 64/melee days.

Our vocabulary is set and makes sense in linguistic terms - DI still involves influence and directions. As far as names go, it's still functional and has more effectiveness since it's a word we already have connections to in our mind. VI makes things feel different, and exacerbates our discussion about it - everything is at level 10, when really it's not that earthshattering.

It's like when we start calling something harmless by a different name, and we then get terrified of it. Our emotions get tweaked, our paranoia rises, and our impatience for celebrity opinion grows. That's the effect that I see happening with VI .

Visiting a stream would show you people going nuts about VI being the death of Smash 4. They would not be up in arms if they had to say "the changes to how DI works is the death of smash 4" -- it has less punch, and doesn't rile people up as easily (the only reason VI caught on).

 

[Chiroz]

Now as for whether VI is a bad name, I can't fault you on that opinion. I come from a school that taught me the concept of vectors when I was 15, and as someone who LIKES math, I have no problem at all with it being called VI, as I don't find it unnecessarily complicated. But I understand that's just me Equally, I have no problem with the name being KI or FI or whatever the people want to call it... AS LONG as it's not DI

Basically I share this same sentiment. I just think calling it DI will confuse more people than not calling it DI.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Basically I share this same sentiment. I just think calling it DI will confuse more people than not calling it DI.

I don't understand how it's confusing? Who here is confused? It's a mechanic in the game, it doesn't even need a name, because it will continue to function how it does without one.

It's (as in both) function is to modify the result after being hit.

If I have two knives, a butchers knife, and a steak knife, there's nothing wrong me me calling either a knife. They both inevitably do the same thing.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Let the community decide. As long we know how **** works in Smash 4, who the hell cares what we call it? I don't know why we're entertaining semantics like this.

No disrespect meant to those labbing hard and figuring out ****. That's all well and fine, but there shouldn't be this borderline pretentious/haughty attitude revolving around naming conventions. Or, dare I say, they shouldn't be entitled to it, either. A technicality or two doesn't hurt anybody as long as people understand it.

Smooth Criminal

 

[MushroomKiller]

No...that's precisely why it can be called DI, because there is no overlap of the old DI mechanics present, thus no confusion.

Actually, I WAS pretty confused when I first heard that DI in Sm4sh is different. Ha! There's a counterpoint to your argument already! I **** you not, I am not just saying that, lol. You can think me stupid, but the fact was that I really was confused that if DI in Sm4sh really is different...Why not just call it something else?

In Math we could call this a 'contradiction'.

Anyhoozie, even though I feel that DI is a bad name, I couldn't care less what it's called in the end, so keep on arguing your hearts out, people

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Actually, I WAS pretty confused when I first heard that DI in Sm4sh is different. Ha! There's a counterpoint to your argument already! I **** you not, I am not just saying that, lol. You can think me stupid, but the fact was that I really was confused that if DI in Sm4sh really is different...Why not just call it something else?

In Math we could call this a 'contradiction'.

Anyhoozie, even though I feel that DI is a bad name, I couldn't care less what it's called in the end, so keep on arguing your hearts out, people

You were confused?

I mean, if someone tells you a mechanic is different, your first reaction is confusion? I would think, logically, your first question would be "How does it work, then?".

Then you would read about how it works.

There's no confusion in that mix, I think you're just using the wrong words to highlight the circumstance.

 

[Chiroz]

I don't understand how it's confusing? Who here is confused? It's a mechanic in the game, it doesn't even need a name, because it will continue to function how it does without one.

It's (as in both) function is to modify the result after being hit.

If I have two knives, a butchers knife, and a steak knife, there's nothing wrong me me calling either a knife. They both inevitably do the same thing.

There's 20 pages of confusion in the other thread.

Shuffling is cool too, but again - we generally don't go with what Sakurai names things as the way we should call them. I'm not sure why, but it's likely because things were called silly names back in the 64/melee days.

Our vocabulary is set and makes sense in linguistic terms - DI still involves influence and directions. As far as names go, it's still functional and has more effectiveness since it's a word we already have connections to in our mind. VI makes things feel different, and exacerbates our discussion about it - everything is at level 10, when really it's not that earthshattering.

It's like when we start calling something harmless by a different name, and we then get terrified of it. Our emotions get tweaked, our paranoia rises, and our impatience for celebrity opinion grows. That's the effect that I see happening with VI .

Visiting a stream would show you people going nuts about VI being the death of Smash 4. They would not be up in arms if they had to say "the changes to how DI works is the death of smash 4" -- it has less punch, and doesn't rile people up as easily (the only reason VI caught on).

I don't think the name is to blame. It's moreso the people that want the game to fail and start screaming: "THE GAME IS DONE FOR" on every new mechanic thread.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

There's 20 pages of confusion in the other thread.

That's confusion over details of the mechanic itself and how it functions, not confusion over its identity and whether it contradicts its function. You know better than to make that kind of comparison, man.

 

[Conda]

There's 20 pages of confusion in the other thread.

.

Confusion about how vectors work, and why it's called vectoring. Not about "what DI means as a word".

The changes to DI make it harder to explain visually and textually, especially since we're still doing tests. That is why that thread is long (also a lot of us talking about the name - before this thread was made).

But it's not a more complicated gameplay mechanic. It is designed to give players a way to change how they are knocked back when they are hit with an attack. It is a skill-ceiling-adder, and a mechanic that keeps the combo game from being predictable (an already unique element in competitive smash bros).

We refer to the inputs players make when properly adjusting their knockback as "good DI." That's just what we do. You could be playing a smash bros fan-made game that would have a similar mechanic but with different math and limitations, and we'd still call it DI. It is the name for "entering an input to alter how you are knocked back, in order to try and survive or escape."

 

[MushroomKiller]

You were confused?

I mean, if someone tells you a mechanic is different, your first reaction is confusion? I would think, logically, your first question would be "How does it work, then?".

Then you would read about how it works.

There's no confusion in that mix, I think you're just using the wrong words to highlight the circumstance.

Nope, there was confusion. Who are you to dictate how I feel?

Here's how it went:

College Roomate: Dude, there's this new mechanic in Smash 4 that works differently from DI. Some people are trying to give it a new name, but I personally prefer letting it remain DI.

Me: ...Wot? Why call it DI when it's different?

See? Confusion.

And then, of course, after my roomate's failed explanation, I proceed to Smashboards where I found Strong Bad's excellent write-up.

True story!

 

[Chiroz]

That's confusion over details of the mechanic itself and how it functions, not confusion over its identity and whether it contradicts its function. You know better than to make that kind of comparison, man.

Yes, but it's my theory (although it's a personal one, no real data to back it up) that that confusion comes from the fact that people are trying to compare it to old DI instead of just learning it as a new technique.

This might sound a little "egocentric" (is that the correct word?) but I feel as if the mechanic itself is too simple for people to get confused about and that the reason they are getting confused about it is because they are trying to make sense of it when comparing it to an old mechanic.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

This might sound a little "egocentric" (is that the correct word?) but I feel as if the mechanic itself is too simple for people to get confused about and that the reason they are getting confused about it is because they are trying to make sense of it when comparing it to an old mechanic.

Or, y'know, it could have been the almost Byzantine explanation of vectoring disseminated to the populace initially.

Sure, the big brains get a kick out of it (I know I did, and I ****ing hate math), but guess what? Not everybody gives a **** about vectors and the like. It's counter-intuitive.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Chiroz]

Or, y'know, it could have been the almost Byzantine explanation of vectoring disseminated to the populace initially.

Sure, the big brains get a kick out of it (I know I did, and I ****ing hate math), but guess what? Not everybody gives a **** about vectors and the like. It's counter-intuitive.

Smooth Criminal

It could also be that, which is why I am not against calling it KI or FI. But I would prefer not to call it DI because I still feel my theory might be true too.

BTW I didn't mean to sound condescending in my last post. I am sorry if I made you angry. It wasn't my intention, I was merely expressing how I felt.

 

[Conda]

Once the game lands and people who don't visit these forums are playing the game, they'll know to call the way they change how they are knocked back "DI".
It's what they called it in the previous games when it had different mathematics and effects, and they'll know "hey, it feels and works differently in this game, they must've changed it around a bit. That makes sense."

They'll google search it, and find out people are calling it a dorky new name - VI and Vectoring - because a few people early on in the 3ds's Japanese release decided to call it something mathematical and shocking.

Hopefully much resistance is met, and people go on their merry way calling the mechanic "DI" - a name chosen by competitive gamers a decade ago when we were better at naming fighting game mechanics.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

BTW I didn't mean to sound condescending in my last post. I am sorry if I made you angry. It wasn't my intention, I was merely expressing how I felt.

Pffft, I didn't get that vibe at all. It's not like...I dunno, I can't think of any generic Latin term for these kinds of discussions/debates where we're slinging mud at each other (abso reductum ipso ad nauseam incognito infinitum red herring blah blah blah). But yeah, it's not like that at all. We're just spitballing.

Smooth Criminal

 

[MushroomKiller]

That's all well and fine, but there shouldn't be this borderline pretentious/haughty attitude revolving around naming conventions.

Once the game lands and people who don't visit these forums are playing the game, they'll know to call the way they change how they are knocked back "DI".
It's what they called it in the previous games when it had different mathematics and effects, and they'll know "hey, it feels and works differently in this game, they must've changed it around a bit. That makes sense."

They'll google search it, and find out people are calling it a dorky new name because a few people early on in the 3ds's Japanese release decided to call it a mathematical name. Hopefully much resistance is met, and people go on their merry way calling the mechanic "DI" - a name chosen by competitive gamers a decade ago when we were better at naming fighting game mechanics.

You know, I couldn't understand at first what Smooth Criminal meant by pretentious/haughty attitude. But after reading your post, I clearly see it right there.

 

[Chiroz]

Once the game lands and people who don't visit these forums are playing the game, they'll know to call the way they change how they are knocked back "DI".
It's what they called it in the previous games when it had different mathematics and effects, and they'll know "hey, it feels and works differently in this game, they must've changed it around a bit. That makes sense."

They'll google search it, and find out people are calling it a dorky new name because a few people early on in the 3ds's Japanese release decided to call it a mathematical name. Hopefully much resistance is met, and people go on their merry way calling the mechanic "DI" - a name chosen by competitive gamers a decade ago when we were better at naming fighting game mechanics.

You play a game where everything that makes you slide is called "wave" because apparently there was one fighting game a long time ago which had a mechanic called "wave" also. I think you aren't being fair to the current community.

 

[Conda]

You play a game where everything that makes you slide is called "wave" because apparently there was one fighting game a long time ago which had a mechanic called "wave" also. I think you aren't being fair to the current community.

Fair.I think wavedashing was a silly name too. I suppose I shouldn't speak of our naming practices in the most blessed of ways, but if anything that does support a stance of "bad names are bad, and let's not keep making the same mistake."

You know, I couldn't understand at first what Smooth Criminal meant by pretentious/haughty attitude. But after reading your post, I clearly see it right there.

Ouch. The penalties of enjoying hating the term 'VI' has a cost. I apologize for sounding polarized or partisan in a theatrical way about this, I assume no expertise or authority. I'm mostly jesting at the fact that we've come up with such a strange name for what is a very conceptually simple mechanic in a fighting game.

I'm not advocating the technical name with such haughtiness, which would be elitist to technical accuracy and mathematical respect. Instead, I'm advocating for a simple and clear name that we as a community already enjoy using. I may have communicated it in a passionate way, but I'm advocating the down-to-earth 'chillax, y'all' side of the coin.

 

[Chiroz]

Fair.I think wavedashing was a silly name too. I suppose I shouldn't speak of our naming practices in the most blessed of ways, but if anything that does support a stance of "bad names are bad, and let's not keep making the same mistake."

Plus wavebouncing, wavesliding and wavelanding. I mean I get that they are named like that because they "resemble" a wavedash, but they are still silly names that are hard for a newcomer who doesn't know what wavedashing is to learn.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I'm going to call it "Strong Badding", because @Strong Bad was the one that discovered it.

All other choices are inferior.



(I'm joking; VI is fine)

 

[Chiroz]

I'm going to call it "Strong Badding", because @Strong Bad was the one that discovered it.

All other choices are inferior.



(I'm joking; VI is fine)

That reminds me of when a guy I know in real life discovered DACUS and posted it here and tried calling it by his tag name "Dante Link X Cancel" or "DLX Cancel" for short. Thankfully people didn't let that one go through.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Nope, there was confusion. Who are you to dictate how I feel?

Here's how it went:

College Roomate: Dude, there's this new mechanic in Smash 4 that works differently from DI. Some people are trying to give it a new name, but I personally prefer letting it remain DI.

Me: ...Wot? Why call it DI when it's different?

See? Confusion.

And then, of course, after my roomate's failed explanation, I proceed to Smashboards where I found Strong Bad's excellent write-up.

True story!

I'm sorry but your short yet anecdotal exchange isn't significant enough to warrant changing the name of a term.

 

[Conda]

I'm sorry but your short yet anecdotal exchange isn't significant enough to warrant changing the name of a term.

Haha yeah. We'll see how people outside of this clearly 5-person discussion thread will feel, but I doubt it will be like in that quoted exchange

Plus wavebouncing, wavesliding and wavelanding. I mean I get that they are named like that because they "resemble" a wavedash, but they are still silly names that are hard for a newcomer who doesn't know what wavedashing is to learn.

Haha yeah it's funny how things catch on. E'gad, what if that happens with the word Vector in Smash 4. We'll have mechanics that we let sound more ridiculous than stuff in even Starcraft 2.

Regarding the 'wave' naming pattern, though -- a lot of people (me as a young'un included) felt 'wave' still fit due to melee's over-the-top smokey-wave landing effect. The name beautifully fits, no matter the origin. A dorky name, but would be unable to feel natural if it wasn't for the wave-like movement and graphic of the effect.
That's the flexibility of the name and makes it work. The motion and the graphic make 'wave' a sensible name, even if the origin was convoluted.

DI has that same flexibility.

That reminds me of when a guy I know in real life discovered DACUS and posted it here and tried calling it by his tag name "Dante Link X Cancel". Thankfully people didn't let that one go through.

I remember that
In my shoes, though, that's exactly how I see the "VI" situation. A temporary unfitting name. Because at the end of the day, once we stop caring about the math and start caring about the effect, the super technical name "Vectoring" will not feel right anymore.

"Vectoring" feels right today, as we learn the technical implications and the math behind it. But once we understand it, it'll become "hit this direction when you are sent this direction at this % range", and it'll become as second nature as DI was in past games.

Once the math subsides and leaves our minds, we'll bounce back to feeling 'DI' is right as rain.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You know, I couldn't understand at first what Smooth Criminal meant by pretentious/haughty attitude. But after reading your post, I clearly see it right there.

I'm not advocating the technical name with such haughtiness, which would be elitist to technical accuracy and mathematical respect. Instead, I'm advocating for a simple and clear name that we as a community already enjoy using. I may have communicated it in a passionate way, but I'm advocating the down-to-earth 'chillax, y'all' side of the coin.

See the bold there? Hey, look, my point exactly! Which is pretty much what Conda's been pushing for the whole time. I dunno where you get off saying that's he's acting self-righteous or elitist. Sooooooooo

Smooth Criminal

 

[MushroomKiller]

I'm sorry but your short yet anecdotal exchange isn't significant enough to warrant changing the name of a term.

Heh, that "short yet anecdotal exchange" was to illustrate the fact that I felt 'confusion' which you so readily disbelieved

As for changing the name of a term, well... Two things. One, we're not CHANGING the name, because as of now the name of this mechanic has not been universally agreed upon. You can argue that we're changing it from DI to whatever (or rather: that we shouldn't change it from DI to whatever), but the fact is that I never saw this mechanic as DI in the first place. *gasp* Again, contradiction!

Two, as I mentioned earlier, I couldn't care less what the name is in the end. I'd honestly be fine with DI, and although I would love another name, it's nothing that I lose sleep over. Just thought I'd come here in my free time and give my own two cents of what I feel

 

[Sobreviviente]

I thought it was given a different name because it works differently to DI, i mean, isnt easier to talk this way?
Everybody is calling it like this though, this debate is not going to change anything

 

[Conda]

I thought it was given a different name because it works differently to DI, i mean, isnt easier to talk this way?
Everybody is calling it like this though, this debate is not going to change anything

It works differently in the same way an expansion pack may change how critical hits are calculated or how the game's impact physics work. It's an underlying math change that alters what is possible controls-wise, but it is the same underlying gameplay mechanic.


When a game has 'jumping' in it, and it works by 'increasing the player's X position", it's 'jumping'.
When a sequel comes out, and updates the jumping mechanic to be more detailed and complex - to: "inflict force of 40 pounds at players feet, utilizing player weight and terrain type to dictate jump height -- and allowing 25% horizonal movement control" -- it is STILL Jumping.

It's a more complex jumping mechanic, but the developer know to still call it 'jumping', and players know to still call it 'jumping.' It doesn't matter how complex the math has gotten underneath, or how different the new mechanic iscontrols-wise, it is still jumping.


That is what VI is - a differently implemented version of DI that is meant to incorporate the same gameplay elements to the fighting engine. It is not a new parallel element.

Saying Smash 4 has "VI" implies it still has DI as well, hence the need for a new name and need for differentiation (ala "Focus" and "Energy" in WoW).

 

[Sobreviviente]

It works differently in the same way an expansion pack may change how critical hits are calculated or how the game's impact physics work. It's an underlying math change that alters what is possible controls-wise, but it is the same underlying gameplay mechanic.


When a game has 'jumping' in it, and it works by 'increasing the player's X position", it's 'jumping'.
When a sequel comes out, and updates the jumping mechanic to be more detailed and complex - to: "inflict force of 40 pounds at players feet, utilizing player weight and terrain type to dictate jump height -- and allowing 25% horizonal movement control" -- it is STILL Jumping.

It's a more complex jumping mechanic, but the developer know to still call it 'jumping', and players know to still call it 'jumping.' It doesn't matter how complex the math has gotten underneath, or how different the new mechanic iscontrols-wise, it is still jumping.


That is what VI is - a differently implemented version of DI that is meant to incorporate the same gameplay elements to the fighting engine. It is not a new parallel element.

Saying Smash 4 has "VI" implies it still has DI as well, hence the need for a new name and need for differentiation (ala "Focus" and "Energy" in WoW).

yeah but doesnt VI reduce/increase knockback rather than redirectioning it? i think thats an important difference.

 

[MushroomKiller]

Ouch. The penalties of enjoying hating the term 'VI' has a cost. I apologize for sounding polarized or partisan in a theatrical way about this, I assume no expertise or authority. I'm mostly jesting at the fact that we've come up with such a strange name for what is a very conceptually simple mechanic in a fighting game.

I'm not advocating the technical name with such haughtiness, which would be elitist to technical accuracy and mathematical respect. Instead, I'm advocating for a simple and clear name that we as a community already enjoy using. I may have communicated it in a passionate way, but I'm advocating the down-to-earth 'chillax, y'all' side of the coin.

See, the thing is, you described the name as 'dorky' and 'better at naming fighting game mechanics' in the post that I replied to. What I got from these words in particular was this:

'dorky': Calling the mechanic 'VI" is dorky because Vectors reminds me of Math and Physics, and those are for dorks!

'better at naming fighting game mechanics': Man, these new guys have nooooooo sense in naming fighting terms. Who invited them? Back in the old days, we used to be SO MUCH BETTER at naming stuff than these young bloods!

Now, if you truly did write in a jesting manner, and didn't actually believe whatever I inferred from there that I thus perceived you to be pretentious, then, of course, I wholly apologize Sarcasm is a bit hard to detect over the texts of the Internet, and so it may have flew over my head. But I hope you understand that, in the light of some absence of context, I really did perceive that post in particular to be pretentious and rather snobbish We cool?

See the bold there? Hey, look, my point exactly! Which is pretty much what Conda's been pushing for the whole time. I dunno where you get off saying that's he's acting self-righteous or elitist. Sooooooooo

See the bold in my answer to Conda? Hey, look, my point exactly! I now hope you know why I thought Conda was acting elitist. Soooooooooo

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

No...that's precisely why it can be called DI, because there is no overlap of the old DI mechanics present, thus no confusion.



The point of a term is not to describe how it works, though. It's to simply to describe what it is, as simply and thought-forward as possible. In science one thing that is said (when writing papers or research) is that when you present a finding or write a report, the shortest possible summation is the best way. Complex wordings and thought rambling tends to do very poorly in the profession.

Smash DI is called Smash DI only because it's DI that's used on a smash attack, it makes sense I would think.

Also..."low jump" is essentially synonymous to "short hop" so it's not really important that we address a naming issue there...short hop was simply a more used term in the FGC when smash came around, so it passed through to Smash.

The point of a term is to describe a phenomenon in as simple and direct a manner as possible. "Directional Influence" has now become a misnomer, hence why I think "Knockback Influence" or "Launch Influence" work far better. "Vector Influence" sounds overly-technical and slightly pretentious, to be blunt.

The term "SDI" confused me at first when I was super-casual because the name implies that it's related to DI. It's really not, though. "Smash Directional Influence" doesn't actually influence your direction at all, only your location. And the way the Smash Wiki describes it sort of implies that it is related to DI, as well. And as for your point, SDI isn't used on a Smash Attack at all unless your timing is freaking incredible or you're TASing, realistically. You're mostly going to use it to escape from multi-hit moves. The only way the name isn't confusing is if you're familiar with the concept of Smash Specials such as Samus's Super Missiles, or Robin's new Smash Aerials.

I was just arguing semantics bringing up the official name of short hops though, to be honest. Besides, the official name might have actually been "short hop" in Brawl. They changed a few of them, such as teching/Ukemi now being referred to as breakfalls in Smash 4.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I prefer vectoring. It is clear, concise and illustrative. Vector Influencing seems to have been created out of this need to build a compromise between the Vectoring people and the Directional Influence people. But the people claiming this is Directional Influence are wrong and don't know what they are talking about, so I don't see why there has to be a compromise term. Knockback influence is a little stillborn too because it seems to be shy of a shorter word that perfectly describes what is going on and also has the unfortunate KI abbreviation. Vectoring is A-OK with me and that's what I will be calling it. Just plain ol' V.

 

[Overtaken]

It works differently in the same way an expansion pack may change how critical hits are calculated or how the game's impact physics work. It's an underlying math change that alters what is possible controls-wise, but it is the same underlying gameplay mechanic.

Ok, this point of 'other games wouldn't change names' is really not applicable here. We aren't
'the game' (you just lost btw), we aren't the game developers or marketing designers or what have you, we're the fan community. Moreover, in this context we are a competitive game community. Technical distinctions in gameplay mechanics are fundamentally important to us. For casual players, for this mechanic to have a term at all is pointless. " 'Directional influence'? What item is that??"

When a game has 'jumping' in it, and it works by 'increasing the player's X position", it's 'jumping'.
When a sequel comes out, and updates the jumping mechanic to be more detailed and complex - to: "inflict force of 40 pounds at players feet, utilizing player weight and terrain type to dictate jump height -- and allowing 25% horizonal movement control" -- it is STILL Jumping.

It's more than a mere change in game code reflecting the same mechanic, it's a different mechanic. The fact that in most instances you would press a different input direction on the controller, often the exact opposite, as you would in previous smashes, shows that for competitive smash it worth changing a letter to indicate and reflect those differences.

That is what VI is - a differently implemented version of DI that is meant to incorporate the same gameplay elements to the fighting engine. It is not a new parallel element.

Ever notice how there is a constant need to refer to air dodging as either "melee air dodge" or "brawl air dodge" in conversations about "air dodging"? Same idea, in conversations about "DI" we would only end up having to say "melee/brawl DI" or "S4 DI" if we stick to not changing the name at all. We're still going to have to use different language when the topic comes up, and "DI" versus "VI" is a lot simpler and practical than "Melee/Brawl DI" versus "S4 DI" or whatever we would be forced to say.