The Definitive Lloyd Irving Thread - fall down seven times, stand up eight (Mii costume confirmed)

[blueneuronDOTnet]

Something bit weird to talk about if I mention this, but do you believe Sakurai might take cues from Mii Swordfighter's Specials resembling Lloyd's Techs as a a blueprint for implementing them?

I mostly feel there might be revisiting the aspect of Lloyd being Mii Swordfighter-costume with some matching specials to boot, so yeah.

I could flat-out see Lloyd being a Sword Mii echo. Most of the specials fit, and their builds match too.

 

[JarBear]

The Sword Mii fighter does have some moves that have the feeling of Lloyd's move pool. However, I do hope he is not an echo of the Sword Mii fighter. I say this because Echoes should only be from the same franchise. Granted, this is a personal bias, especially with regards to Ganondorf's move-set starting back with Melee. Finally he is starting to become more like his real self, but if there is a future Smash game that becomes a reboot, Ganondorf does need further changes.

But back to Lloyd, this does not mean he shouldn't have some moves based off the Sword Mii Fighters. Other fighters in the roster to share some moves from different characters, such as Dr. Mario's new Down Air that is like Ganondorf's ... Lucario, Little Mac, etc. having a counter move like Marth and Roy's, etc.

 

[User Name String]

Actually thinking about it Sakurai did say that Mii gunner's moveset was made with Geno in mind.
Could Geno and other potential fighters (such as Lloyd) receive reworks of Mii movesets?

Something bit weird to talk about if I mention this, but do you believe Sakurai might take cues from Mii Swordfighter's Specials resembling Lloyd's Techs as a a blueprint for implementing them?

I mostly feel there might be revisiting the aspect of Lloyd being Mii Swordfighter-costume with some matching specials to boot, so yeah.

 

[Nazyrus]

Hey guys, I figured I would share this here (don't know if anyone has already). It's the Tales of Symphonia Animation all of the episodes. It's a youtube playlist if you open it outside of this forum, for those who are interested in watching it. Obvious spoiler warning, if you haven't played the game, the animation covers most of the main events from beginning to end (even if it doesn't truly cover EVERY single event of the game, because the game is … well… long as hell, LOL).

 

[Icedragonadam]

Hey guys, guess what's at Gamescom in this great cabinet of the Gamecube's history.

GameCube is dominating Gamescom pic.twitter.com/Wvkd1xZBnm

— John Linneman @dark1x.bsky.social (@dark1x) August 21, 2018

 

[Nazyrus]

Hey guys, guess what's at Gamescom in this great cabinet of the Gamecube's history.

GameCube is dominating Gamescom pic.twitter.com/Wvkd1xZBnm

— John Linneman @dark1x.bsky.social (@dark1x) August 21, 2018

I freaking need it… I gave up my Gamecube to my big sister a year ago and I actually never got a copy of ToS… Damn I wish I was there now, I would've bought it right away.

 

[ryuu seika]

Going about this in the same way that I did over in the Banjo Kazooie thread, here's my picks for relevant Tales music that would work as battle theme themes. I'm sure I'm still missing a few.:

Tales of Phantasia (3):
Take up the Cross/Ability Test
Fighting of the Spirit
Decisive Battle/Time Battle

Tales of Eternia (3):
Take up the Cross/Ability Test (Repeat)
Inferia Battle/Celestia Battle Medley
Decisive Battle/Time Battle (Repeat)

Tales of Symphonia (13):
Starry Heavens (Instrumental)
English Main Theme
Full Force/Like a Glint of Light Medley
Fatalize
Keen Edged Blade
Zelos (Serious Arrange)
Fighting of the Spirit (Repeat)
The Law of the Battle
The End of a Thought
Beat The Angel
It can Waver and Fight
Final Destination
And Thus I can Do it! (Heroic Version)

Tales of the Abyss (1):
Karma/Meaning of Birth

Dawn of the New World (7):
Three Legged Race (Instrumental)
Run Through
Full Force/Like a Glint of Light Medley (Repeat)
The More that I Try
Person Who Conceives Frenzy
The Wilderness of Sadness
Anitomy

Radiant Mythology (5):
Blazing!
Middle Boss
Take Up The Cross/Ability Test (Repeat)
Battle Artist (Radiant Arrange)
The End of a Thought (Repeat)

Total Distinct Tracks: 25

I freaking need it… I gave up my Gamecube to my big sister a year ago and I actually never got a copy of ToS… Damn I wish I was there now, I would've bought it right away.

I'd get the PS3 version if you can. It has all the PS2 exclusive content translated and apparently a few other extras.

 

[Ridrool64]

If any ToS normal battle medley excludes Keen-Edged Blade for ANY reason, I'm not playing that track. It deserves to be with its companions! It's a good song!

Also, GameCube is worth it if you want 60fps, but if you can deal with 30fps, PS3 is the way to go.

 

[Icedragonadam]

I just remembered back when Namco was confirmed to be helping develop Smash 4. One of the team leads is the current Tales director Yo****o Higuchi, and that Tales producer Makoto Yoshizumi would loves to have a Tales character in Smash and thinks Yo****o would agree.

https://nintendoeverything.com/yoshizumi-on-including-tales-characters-in-next-smash-bros-more/

 

[ryuu seika]

If any ToS normal battle medley excludes Keen-Edged Blade for ANY reason, I'm not playing that track. It deserves to be with its companions! It's a good song!

It's not a "normal battle medley" it's a "united worlds battle medley". Keen Edged Blade can be separate if you really want.
IIRC I left it out because it sounded too much like something else but nothing on the list sounds quite like it so IDK, it's there now.

Also, GameCube is worth it if you want 60fps, but if you can deal with 30fps, PS3 is the way to go.

I'm in the PAL region so I just get the game at 92% speed if I go Gamecube. 30FPS doesn't bother me.

 

[blueneuronDOTnet]

So I've been spending this last week replaying ToS, and I've been thinking about what aspects of the game might appear in Smash Ultimate. Stages that come to mind include the inner Tower of Salvation (part shared by both worlds), Hima, Exire, the dragon nest Rodyle imprisons Colette on, the Meltokio Coliseum, Derris-Kharlan, and maybe Niflheim. Sheena (and her Summon Spirits) and Colette/Zelos/Kratos (and their angel skills) seem like they might make for interesting assist trophies, while the Rheairds (think Dragoon), the Sorcerer's Ring, a Cruxis Crystal/Exsphere, and the Eternal Sword all seem like they might make for neat items.

 

[Deleted member]

It's late, guys. Have some hot coffee.

Spoiler

It's actually iced coffee.

Spoiler

I lied. It's actually hot.

 

[LifelessCorpse]

I support!

 

[RealityReloaded]

A Lloyd thread! Count me in.

 

[[N]]

I support this as well.

 

[blueneuronDOTnet]

It's late, guys. Have some hot coffee.

I support!

A Lloyd thread! Count me in.

I support this as well.

Added! That officially brings us to 33 supporters.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I just remembered back when Namco was confirmed to be helping develop Smash 4. One of the team leads is the current Tales director Yo****o Higuchi, and that Tales producer Makoto Yoshizumi would loves to have a Tales character in Smash and thinks Yo****o would agree.

https://nintendoeverything.com/yoshizumi-on-including-tales-characters-in-next-smash-bros-more/

Well, they at least went through with Mii Costume for Lloyd, so they've probably passed the phase of suggesting and exploring the idea, deciding on Lloyd since he made "most sense" in Nintendo-centric crossover party fighter.

Depending if they're back on the helm for Ultimate, this could bode really well for Lloyd to pop in.

 

[Nazyrus]

Well, they at least went through with Mii Costume for Lloyd, so they've probably passed the phase of suggesting and exploring the idea, deciding on Lloyd since he made "most sense" in Nintendo-centric crossover party fighter.

Depending if they're back on the helm for Ultimate, this could bode really well for Lloyd to pop in.

Here will be crossing fingers…

 

[Deleted member]

I'm crossing my fingers for Lloyd too. I'm honestly going to be disappointed if he doesn't make it. But I gotta stay positive..

 

[Nazyrus]

Imagine the Lloyd amiibo…

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I'm crossing my fingers for Lloyd too. I'm honestly going to be disappointed if he doesn't make it. But I gotta stay positive..

Well, just a reminder that Lloyd's been given serious consideration in 4 - the way we're here due that is quite a fortune (for now.)

 

[Deleted member]

Well, just a reminder that Lloyd's been given serious consideration in 4 - the way we're here due that is quite a fortune (for now.)

You do have a point. It's just a lot of people don't predict Lloyd to make it into Smash, but I guess it doesn't mean too much. I still hope for him nonetheless.

 

[Icedragonadam]

The thing is though that nearly every prediction the Smash fans had ended up being completely off from the final roster in each game since Brawl. I really don't expect the roster of being just a combination of Issac, Geno, Skull Kid, Banjo, and Incineroar. This seems to be common pratfall when it comes to Smash speculation.
I also want Lloyd just so the safe character rumors get blown to bits.

 

[DogManStar]

You do have a point. It's just a lot of people don't predict Lloyd to make it into Smash, but I guess it doesn't mean too much. I still hope for him nonetheless.

Predictions aren’t everything. No one called Robin, and I will be genuinely shocked if Isaac is in this game at all.

 

[blueneuronDOTnet]

The thing is though that nearly every prediction the Smash fans had ended up being completely off from the final roster in each game since Brawl. I really don't expect the roster of being just a combination of Issac, Geno, Skull Kid, Banjo, and Incineroar. This seems to be common pratfall when it comes to Smash speculation.
I also want Lloyd just so the safe character rumors get blown to bits.

I'd say Geno is the only really safe pick here. Skull Kid is possible, but his absence thus far could just as well be explained by him being turned into a boss. Banjo has always been a long shot.

 

[Mario123311]

I don't mean to seem pessimistic or anything (although I can often get frusterated at times on other sites.) and I know coming in to detract is a touchy subject but I honestly don't want this guy. I personally kind of hold a grudge against the Tales of series due to two reason one is... Very bad experiences with certain fansI shall not name whom I have met in the past. The other biggest reason is because I feel Namco has been using the Tales series too much in recent years. Yes, Pac-Man is also in Smash but they never even bothered to touch up on what a lot of fans wanted the character in for in the first place - He had nothing from the Pac-Man World trilogy. Yet they bothered to represent Pac-Land oddly enough which is even more obscure and arguably forgotten about. Not to mention Pac-Man himself has barely been used at all in recent years save for casual mobile titles and a cartooon reboot with tie-in games that were almost universally hated by fans.

I also do have that mindset with not being into swordfighter characters or those with the typical "JRPG"/Medeval Fantasy aesthetic, But I don't want to say anymore about that as I have a feeling I'll be ripped apart if I went on why. ((And it's not just because I support a different Namco character, I just wish Namco wouldn't ignore other parts of the early 2000's they were known for. I consider those days their glory days.)) Hopefully at the very least Pac may go through a revision to have the Butt-Bounce added to his moveset. [preferably as a d-air]

Otherwise, I'm just holding out for songs. If nothing happens and Lloyd happens to get in than you can kind of expect me to be salty, venting my frustration elsewhere.

Well.. Until they start using their actual IPs properly again. Pac-Man and Klonoa especially. Then I'll probably be much more accepting. I just feel Namco has been shoving the series down my throat constantly promoting it and plastering ads everywhere and giving it proper playable crossover cameos.






Side Note: Also, No offense. I literally only played a bit of Symphonia on an emulator before I got bored of it and quit. But from what I heard about Lloyd's actual character charisma? He sounds like he could potentially get on my nerves in general. At best/worst I heard his personality is akin to that of Naruto.

Hopefully this is civilized and less mean-sounding than I probably sound elsewhere where I post casually all willy-nilly.

 

[User Name String]

Predictions aren’t everything. No one called Robin, and I will be genuinely shocked if Isaac is in this game at all.

There actually was a group of people who denied that Chrom would join over Robin due to his magic system allowing a new moveset.
Honestly Issac should be favored in Europe and Latin america so they wouldn't ignore him. (he already has a assist trophy moveset anyways.)

In the end I do agree predictions don't change anything.

 

[RileyXY1]

There actually was a group of people who denied that Chrom would join over Robin due to his magic system allowing a new moveset.
Honestly Issac should be favored in Europe and Latin america so they wouldn't ignore him. (he already has a assist trophy moveset anyways.)

In the end I do agree predictions don't change anything.

Said AT was removed in Smash 4. About Lloyd, I see him as one of the more likelier new NB reps. We have many sword fighters in Smash, but how many of them dual wield? Zero.

 

[DogManStar]

In the end, I think Isaac's AT being removed was actually a net positive, as it got more people to vote for him. Most people assumed the ballot was for DLC, so I don't think as many people voted for current ATs in that game. Regardless, I still think Isaac is by far the most unlikely popular choice among the community for other reasons.

But this is the Lloyd thread, no reason to get into that here. I agree that Lloyd is probably the most likely Namco rep at this point. Only Heihachi really stands up to him imo.

 

[RileyXY1]

In the end, I think Isaac's AT being removed was actually a net positive, as it got more people to vote for him. Most people assumed the ballot was for DLC, so I don't think as many people voted for current ATs in that game. Regardless, I still think Isaac is by far the most unlikely popular choice among the community for other reasons.

But this is the Lloyd thread, no reason to get into that here. I agree that Lloyd is probably the most likely Namco rep at this point. Only Heihachi really stands up to him imo.

About Heihachi, not only has Sakurai failed to make a moveset for him, Heihachi is dead in-universe and both of his VAs have died. It really bodes well for Lloyd's chances.

 

[Icedragonadam]

About Heihachi, not only has Sakurai failed to make a moveset for him, Heihachi is dead in-universe and both of his VAs have died. It really bodes well for Lloyd's chances.

With the way you said it, it kind of sounds a bit cold no offense. But yeah, it doesn't seem to bold well for Heihachi. provided that there's only one new Namco rep.

 

[blueneuronDOTnet]

I personally kind of hold a grudge against the Tales of series due to two reason one is... Very bad experiences with certain fansI shall not name whom I have met in the past.

I've had my fair share of issues with Tales fans - I don't consider myself one of them, so I'm not surprised that we disagree on a number of things, but I've met some really silly people during my time in this fandom. I don't see why that should impact my - or your - opinion regarding the character's inclusion though, considering that every fandom has its share of nutcases, and doubly so given that the Smash fandom isn't exactly a bastion of reason and civility itself.

The other biggest reason is because I feel Namco has been using the Tales series too much in recent years. Yes, Pac-Man is also in Smash but they never even bothered to touch up on what a lot of fans wanted the character in for in the first place - He had nothing from the Pac-Man World trilogy. Yet they bothered to represent Pac-Land oddly enough which is even more obscure and arguably forgotten about. Not to mention Pac-Man himself has barely been used at all in recent years save for casual mobile titles and a cartooon reboot with tie-in games that were almost universally hated by fans.

From what I've seen in interviews, this is far more dependent on Sakurai than it is on the developer, and while I'm far from happy with Sakurai and the directions he tends to take, one thing I can't deny is that he tends to put thought and care into character implementations. Tales is overused (primarily because Namco knows that it's a cash cow, and it's probably the IP with the most passionate fanbase and the biggest whales), but Bandai-Namco is a massive company, and these two franchises are done by different teams that largely operate independently of one another.

Could Lloyd's inclusion in Smash theoretically offer Tales exposure to a new market and cause Namco to push it harder and/or prioritize it over other IPs? Sure, but as we saw with Pac-Man in Smash, Lloyd in Soul Calibur, and Yuri in PXZ, chances are that they'll simply carry on with business as usual. History shows us that Smash representation is unlikely to affect their plans and the way they view different characters - like it or not, Namco views Pac-Man as a series that offers them more value in the mobile market than on traditional consoles (though I'd argue that this could simply be a trend within Namco itself, given that Tales has been flooded with mobile titles as well), and Lloyd joining the Smash roster isn't going to change that.

I also do have that mindset with not being into swordfighter characters or those with the typical "JRPG"/Medeval Fantasy aesthetic, But I don't want to say anymore about that as I have a feeling I'll be ripped apart if I went on why. ((And it's not just because I support a different Namco character, I just wish Namco wouldn't ignore other parts of the early 2000's they were known for. I consider those days their glory days.)) Hopefully at the very least Pac may go through a revision to have the Butt-Bounce added to his moveset. [preferably as a d-air]

We're not talking about a character like Pac-Man who has entire generations of consoles and dozens of games to draw material from - Lloyd has only appeared in two mothership titles, and he's fairly consistent throughout. Sakurai wouldn't base Lloyd off of Soul Calibur or Tales of Asteria, he'd base Lloyd off of his actual origin games, because those are the main titles in which he has actually been fleshed out, and the mechanics in those particular games - i.e. the arte system - would, alongside Lloyd's build, render him a very unique character not only among the sword fighters, but in the cast at large.

Also, No offense. I literally only played a bit of Symphonia on an emulator before I got bored of it and quit. But from what I heard about Lloyd's actual character charisma? He sounds like he could potentially get on my nerves in general. At best/worst I heard his personality is akin to that of Naruto.

Tales games are all about character development - their whole schtick revolves around presenting a fairly cliche setting with cookie cutter characters and slowly developing those and flipping them on their head over the course of the game. Judging Lloyd off of a playthrough that didn't cut into the meat of the story won't give you an accurate picture of what he (or his game) are like.

 

[blueneuronDOTnet]

About Heihachi, not only has Sakurai failed to make a moveset for him, Heihachi is dead in-universe and both of his VAs have died. It really bodes well for Lloyd's chances.

I'unno about the issue with his VAs, but ease of implementation and pull with the casual audience is what gives Lloyd the edge here, I think.

 

[Mario123311]

The issue is Pac-Man World is arguably Pac-Man's best known/regarded titles past the Arcade era. Hell, They are his most notable platform/spinoff games in general. It's really just as bad as how Wario had almost no WL representation in Smash 4 IMO. ((And it even bugs me considering Sonic has stuff from Adventure and onward while Mega Man goes out of its way to not only reference 7 and 8, the most contested entries of the classic series but literally all of the spinoff universes as well.)) But I digress. Again: The World trilogy is what really made fans want the character in Smash to begin with. He had moveset potential. Sadly, For the longest time Namco has refused to acknowledge said series of games up until this year with offical polls on Twitter and Facebook. But I don't want to derail this topic either, Hopefully you can understand where I come from.

And I'm glad to say you are one of the most sane Tales fans I have ever come across. I know you don't really consider yourself one though, which is understandable. Glad I'm really not the only one who see's the series as overused either, I wouldn't mind this if they were using their actual IPs properly but... Yeah.

This is literally the reason I have been boycotting Namco as of late with a few others spread around the interwebz, mainly on social media.

 

[Nazyrus]

I'm gonna take this opportunity to share this image I made and posted originally on a discord group I'm in…

I was so done with this during Smash 4 , and I'm still super done with this at this point… the argument of "way too many sword fighters" is not even a real thing but more of an "anti sword fighters" movement people keep bringing up against ANY swordsman character we speculate on these days… ALL because of FE and Sakurai milking them (and milking them in a bad way, if he gave us total variety, i bet this "too many swordmen" thing wouldn't have even happened in the beginning). People need to stop mixing up what they should be really complaining (too many FE characters) with something that isn't even true (too many swordsman). It ruins the fun and annoys the hell out of people like me and all of us who want characters like Lloyd, or any other swordsman that totally deserves to be a rep of their company just like any other highly requested character with huge support fanbase at this moment. Seriously, ENOUGH of this stupid and invalid argument. Lloyd deserves to have his chances just like any other, he is a huge icon of a huge franchise and there is no problem for him to be in smash, PERIOD. Sorry for the rant but i'm seriously fed up with this nonsense people keep alive even to this day...

 

[aarchak]

I'm gonna take this opportunity to share this image I made and posted originally on a discord group I'm in…
View attachment 159946

I was so done with this during Smash 4 , and I'm still super done with this at this point… the argument of "way too many sword fighters" is not even a real thing but more of an "anti sword fighters" movement people keep bringing up against ANY swordsman character we speculate on these days… ALL because of FE and Sakurai milking them (and milking them in a bad way, if he gave us total variety, i bet this "too many swordmen" thing wouldn't have even happened in the beginning). People need to stop mixing up what they should be really complaining (too many FE characters) with something that isn't even true (too many swordsman). It ruins the fun and annoys the hell out of people like me and all of us who want characters like Lloyd, or any other swordsman that totally deserves to be a rep of their company just like any other highly requested character with huge support fanbase at this moment. Seriously, ENOUGH of this stupid and invalid argument. Lloyd deserves to have his chances just like any other, he is a huge icon of a huge franchise and there is no problem for him to be in smash, PERIOD. Sorry for the rant but i'm seriously fed up with this nonsense people keep alive even to this day...

THANK YOU. Literally everyone who says "too many anime swordsmen in Smash" get on my nerves to the point that I have taken the opposite stance and asked or more anime swordsmen in Smash.

 

[DogManStar]

I got really tired of hearing the anime swordsman argument a long time ago. If the character is interesting and fun to play, does it even matter if they use a sword and look like an anime character? I don't think it should matter.

 

[Nazyrus]

I got really tired of hearing the anime swordsman argument a long time ago. If the character is interesting and fun to play, does it even matter if they use a sword and look like an anime character? I don't think it should matter.

It really doesn't matter at all. It's like people forget Smash's goal is to be a huge crossover game with beloved game characters. That's what this game is, anything else is stuff people are making up, as if they owned Smash and Sakurai's choices should be based on what people feel the game should be. If they don't like it, they can make their own damn game, geez. lol

 

[Mario123311]

I'm gonna take this opportunity to share this image I made and posted originally on a discord group I'm in…
View attachment 159946

I was so done with this during Smash 4 , and I'm still super done with this at this point… the argument of "way too many sword fighters" is not even a real thing but more of an "anti sword fighters" movement people keep bringing up against ANY swordsman character we speculate on these days… ALL because of FE and Sakurai milking them (and milking them in a bad way, if he gave us total variety, i bet this "too many swordmen" thing wouldn't have even happened in the beginning). People need to stop mixing up what they should be really complaining (too many FE characters) with something that isn't even true (too many swordsman). It ruins the fun and annoys the hell out of people like me and all of us who want characters like Lloyd, or any other swordsman that totally deserves to be a rep of their company just like any other highly requested character with huge support fanbase at this moment. Seriously, ENOUGH of this stupid and invalid argument. Lloyd deserves to have his chances just like any other, he is a huge icon of a huge franchise and there is no problem for him to be in smash, PERIOD. Sorry for the rant but i'm seriously fed up with this nonsense people keep alive even to this day...

I still find his design generic personally. That and his moves aren't all that special either. And again: I've played Symphonia briefly along with SSF2. He still does not appeal to me at all.

And again, Just having him in there would anger me not just because he's another swordfighter, but because Namco has overflaunted his franchise in general while their other actual IPs are all rotting away. (And again, They aren't even using Pac-Man properly anymore.) It's insulting to me that Namco isn't bothering to give Pac-Man material from his early 2000's glory days of resurgance and are sticking directly to the 80's arcade game for material. (Which wasn't even enough so they had to give him shout-out moves.) It really doesn't help almost nobody heard of Pac-Land until Smash 4 happened. And it's choice to be represented is almost universally hated.

I'm not trying to argue, You are free to disagree. But we have our reasons. To me and many others, Smash was always a "mascot fighter" first and foremost.

 

[DogManStar]

If Smash is a mascot fighter, then why is Sakurai including characters like Bayonetta and Shulk? Maybe it once felt that way, but I don't think Sakurai sees Smash that way anymore. Even if you think Lloyd has no place in Smash (and you are free to feel that way), Sakurai might not agree.

I can't say anything in regards to the Namco complaints though. I don't know too much about the state of most of their IPs.