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The Dark Knight (2008) *12-14-07 NEW Official trailer!*

CodeBlack

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
733
I mean, dead certain. You surely don't want to focus on the more interesting, and the less likely character to make into the next. Its obvious that you don't want to spend on a character that doesn't have a 100% chance on making to the next film, like Batman does. After all, people go to see these films for the villains, since it is certain Batman is going to be in all of them, so you got plenty of time to learn about Batman, but not a lot of time to see the villains. Especially if they die, like Ra's.

Also, I guess its because I'm not a comic book fan, but I don't buy the whole, he's a killer because he's killer, thing that's going on here. I think, there needs more story to him, and he needs to have real psychological development. I don't accept that he just comes out of nowhere, wearing white make-up with a big gash across his cheaks, with blonde and green hair wearing a Willy Wonka outfit, and there's no given explanation for his look or his behavior. That doesn't make him a character. He's just some event that happens in Bruce Wayne's life. They don't really need a full story. I can accept a little hint, which is what I'm hoping for (in fact, I would prefer little hints to his life, and what made him such a bad man, rather than the full story, that makes him an even more interesting character, because now it leaves you something to think about, something you want to understand, something you begin thinking). Just say something like this thing happened to me, and I started doing whatever, and that'll be perfectly fine. I can put the pieces together after that, and now, he's a real character. I mean, you wouldn't buy someone saying Batman is just Batman because he's Batman (at least I hope you wouldn't buy that). I mean, even Tim Burton went out of the way to show Bruce's parents getting killed.

The point is. I think the Joker really needs to play a large part of this film. Batman is still an important character, but he's old news now, and they need to give a new character, time on the screen. You can't just blow a character off, just because his name isn't in the title. He needs to be more than just some side character who comes out of nowhere and does bad things every 20 minutes. Maybe the Joker played a little too large of a role in the first Batman (then again its Jack Nicholson, and he usually takes the spotlight in any film), but then again, he died.

I have high expectations for this film, and I have no doubt that I will be seeing in several times in theatres (as I did Begins), but I want to look at the Joker in this film and think more than just, "man he looks so wierd," or, "****, he's really insane." I especially don't want to say, "why is he like this?" and get nothing. Maybe some people will buy that, but not me.

Now everyone here is going to flame me.
Well, they did say the Killing Joke was one of their main influences, as well as the Long Halloween, and many Batman Fan will tell you that these are the two best Batman graphic novels out there. Given what we've seen, I don't think you should doubt that the Joker will be deep in some way, if the The Killing Joke was truly used for influence, then a bit of his philosophy on life will shine through, and there might be a vague flashback.


Also, is Ra's truly dead? They made sure to give him a vague death without a body, and, given his semi-immortal nature in the comics, I wouldn't be surprised if he was dead, but I'm taking his death with a grain of salt (whatever that means).
 

CodeBlack

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
733
hell yeah, I wanna say after this, Heath Ledger's joker will be the DEFINITIVE joker
I think the comics Joker will always be the definitive Joker, and after that Mark Hamill in BTAS, but I know where you're coming from, and this Joker probably will sweep us all away, perhaps a lot more than we all realize.

Edit: Sorry about the double post.
 

ZM2004

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
205
Location
VA, USA
I wouldn't mind using the Killing Joke as an explanation since Tim Burton's did it too. I think someone bad mouthed Tim Burton here about the idea dropping him in a vat of chemicals, but I recall that coming from the killing joke, and not actually being Burton's own idea.

But I think they should change it up a bit because the whole failing stand-up comedian is so obvious. I always thought that idea was the kind of thing where everyone's asking, "who is this guy," or "what's his problem," and someone just says, "he was probably a bad stand-up comic." Losing his family was good, the red hood thing is good, but I'd prefer they change the whole failing comedian thing because that's so obvious.

And Ra's? He better be dead. If these movies start doing some thing where the villains are in an inescapable situation where they are clearly going to die, but reappear in a later movie with some half-***** explanation of how they survived, or even no explanation at all... Oooh I will be mad. A train blew up with him in it.... He better be dead. If not dead, then seriously damaged to the point where he won't be seen ever again.

I'm glad the Scarecrow's still alive though.

Dibs - you can update a link to a better quality trailer now.
 

CodeBlack

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
733
I wouldn't mind using the Killing Joke as an explanation since Tim Burton's did it too. I think someone bad mouthed Tim Burton here about the idea dropping him in a vat of chemicals, but I recall that coming from the killing joke, and not actually being Burton's own idea.

But I think they should change it up a bit because the whole failing stand-up comedian is so obvious. I always thought that idea was the kind of thing where everyone's asking, "who is this guy," or "what's his problem," and someone just says, "he was probably a bad stand-up comic." Losing his family was good, the red hood thing is good, but I'd prefer they change the whole failing comedian thing because that's so obvious.

And Ra's? He better be dead. If these movies start doing some thing where the villains are in an inescapable situation where they are clearly going to die, but reappear in a later movie with some half-***** explanation of how they survived, or even no explanation at all... Oooh I will be mad. A train blew up with him in it.... He better be dead. If not dead, then seriously damaged to the point where he won't be seen ever again.

I'm glad the Scarecrow's still alive though.

Dibs - you can update a link to a better quality trailer now.
Well, for one. The main reason Ra's might be alive is because he's immortal in the comics, sort of. If he's recovered from near death he can be put in a Lazarus Pit and revived.

As for the Joker, the catalyst for him wasn't that he was a failed comedian, but because his life and the unfairness of life in general compounded and fell apart on him all at once (his wife died, he's believed himself a failure at life, he was forced into a criminal activity, and then had to run for his life while those who forced him were brutally shot down, and then, to top it off, he fell into the chemicals and became permanently scarred) and, unable to accept it and face it, he chose madness, though the point of the Killing Joke is that, despite his thoughts that all people were like that, the Joker (and Batman) is not a representative of the fragile state of humanity.

The thing I like about Batman villains is, even for characters as inhumanly evil as the Joker, they all have a large degree of humanity or, at least, complexity and deepness.
 

Tryptomine

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
268
Location
UCF, Orlando
Well, for one. The main reason Ra's might be alive is because he's immortal in the comics, sort of. If he's recovered from near death he can be put in a Lazarus Pit and revived.

As for the Joker, the catalyst for him wasn't that he was a failed comedian, but because his life and the unfairness of life in general compounded and fell apart on him all at once (his wife died, he's believed himself a failure at life, he was forced into a criminal activity, and then had to run for his life while those who forced him were brutally shot down, and then, to top it off, he fell into the chemicals and became permanently scarred) and, unable to accept it and face it, he chose madness, though the point of the Killing Joke is that, despite his thoughts that all people were like that, the Joker (and Batman) is not a representative of the fragile state of humanity.

The thing I like about Batman villains is, even for characters as inhumanly evil as the Joker, they all have a large degree of humanity or, at least, complexity and deepness.
Quite true, I always loved the main theme in the Killing Joke, that "all it takes is one really bad day to turn a normal person into someone just like me." Even if he gets proven wrong (sort of).
 

ZM2004

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
205
Location
VA, USA
I don't believe I ever said that the point of the Killing Joke was about him being a failing comedian, nor did I say that was the reason he became the Joker. I said that they could do without it. I believe I also said that they should keep the idea of him losing his wife, and being used by other criminals, before turning to insanity.

No, Ra's in the comics may be immortal, but that idea doesn't play so well for a movie. Especially since the director is trying to be more realistic with this series. It is hard to buy that he cannot die. Also, I heard a rumor (this was way back... before they even had a title for the film) I heard that Ra's' daughter will be in this film. I haven't checked up on that, so I don't know.

"The thing I like about Batman villains is, even for characters as inhumanly evil as the Joker, they all have a large degree of humanity or, at least, complexity and deepness."

I believe that's what I've been saying. The Joker needs to have a story in this film, and can't just be some guy who does things with no motivation.
 

Akiak

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Messages
820
Location
In my secret laboratory.
Joker is a disappointment.
I mean look at Batmans suit! Its all detailed with the golden belt, logo and weapons and cape etc.
Instead Joker looks like a lazy noob on Halloween that didn't know what costume to put on, so he just squirted some cheap spray paint on his face with absolutely NO preciseness and put on the first suit he found in grandpas closet!

Still can't wait for the movie.
 

ZM2004

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
205
Location
VA, USA
Did you want him to be in full blown shining body armor. Besides, maybe the Joker did not want to have an $300,000 suit like Batman.
 

antimatter

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Messages
1,957
oooh! thought of something! maybe joker gets his face turned permanently white in the last battle with the batman!
 

CodeBlack

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
733
I don't believe I ever said that the point of the Killing Joke was about him being a failing comedian, nor did I say that was the reason he became the Joker. I said that they could do without it. I believe I also said that they should keep the idea of him losing his wife, and being used by other criminals, before turning to insanity.

No, Ra's in the comics may be immortal, but that idea doesn't play so well for a movie. Especially since the director is trying to be more realistic with this series. It is hard to buy that he cannot die. Also, I heard a rumor (this was way back... before they even had a title for the film) I heard that Ra's' daughter will be in this film. I haven't checked up on that, so I don't know.

"The thing I like about Batman villains is, even for characters as inhumanly evil as the Joker, they all have a large degree of humanity or, at least, complexity and deepness."

I believe that's what I've been saying. The Joker needs to have a story in this film, and can't just be some guy who does things with no motivation.
True, but what I'm saying is that, if they do him right, he will have that deepness without a need to flesh out his storyline, as per the way he is in the comics. He's such a simple force of evil and id that he, at times, becomes a near philosophical character through his madness (like in Arkham Asylum: Serious Place on A Serious Earth (I think that's the name))

In addition, generally, if you flesh out the Joker too much, you run the risk of losing the feel of the character by giving him a restricted, set identity (the Joker is too spontaneous a character for such a thing to stick), and losing his almost symbolic nature.

For example:

One of the things that made the Killing Joke so great was that it kept a feel of distance and separation in the Joker's flashbacks, almost like a dream, and the Joker himself tells us that his memories are untrustworthy.

On the other hand, a couple years ago, a substory in the Hush Returns arc tried to iron that backstory into fact and create a cemented identity for the Joker, and, as a result, succeeded in doing what few though possible: it made the Joker boring and uninteresting.
 

Gerudo Knight

Blademaster
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 28, 2001
Messages
2,514
Location
Penticton
Joker is a disappointment.
I mean look at Batmans suit! Its all detailed with the golden belt, logo and weapons and cape etc.
Instead Joker looks like a lazy noob on Halloween that didn't know what costume to put on, so he just squirted some cheap spray paint on his face with absolutely NO preciseness and put on the first suit he found in grandpas closet!

Still can't wait for the movie.

Hating on the makeup I can understand (Though I disagree), but his clothing is spot on. I don't understand what more you could want.

Also, Nolan/Nolan/Goyer have gone on record saying that their main source-material for the Joker are his first couple appearances, where he just shows up out of nowhere and causes mayhem. So don't expect to get any sort of fleshed out story just yet, maybe in future films.
 

bballstar23

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
914
Location
Chicago
Switch FC
SW-2383-6686-1312
NOTE: The new trailer doesn't work anymore.

EDIT: Nevermind, got my question answered
 

Dibs

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
1,754
Already a thread about that. The movie's in post production.. Hopefully it will be dedicated to him.
 
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