The Competitive Stage Builder Thread

[ChemicalExperiment]

Meta Crystal (64)

edit: Also, @ ChemicalExperiment are you using the grid feature to make your stages?

edit2: Castle Siege (starting form)

edit3: Kalos Pokemon League - Dragonmark Chamber

Of course! I completely forgot to turn that option on.

 

[ChemicalExperiment]

Meta Crystal (64)

edit: Also, @ ChemicalExperiment are you using the grid feature to make your stages?

edit2: Castle Siege (starting form)

edit3: Kalos Pokemon League - Dragonmark Chamber

I completely forgot to them that option on! It is going to be so much easier now. Thanks!

 

[MadKraken]

If competitive custom stages are to become accepted, it may help to detail requirements/preferences for competitive stages beyond just no hazards.

I'm not a pro player, but here are some rules I try to stick to when I make my stages:

Requirements

• At least one main platform
• - Non-drop-through
• - Grabbable edges on both sides
• Every platform must be at least 6 grid blocks wide (an individual Mario is 2 blocks wide)
• There must be no "V" shaped formations without an at least 6-block wide space to stand at the bottom
• The vertical distance between any platform and its vertically nearest neighbor must be traversable by Mario using only double jumps
• The whole of the stage must be traversable by Mario using only double jumps (no solitary, distant platforms)
• The vertical distance between platforms directly above each other should be at least 6 blocks (Mario is 3 blocks tall)

Preferences

• Symmetry? (to avoid any subtle stage advantages a player may have over the other at the start of a match)
• Every drop-through platform should have a non-drop-through platform somewhere directly below it (does not have to be under the whole platform)
• A non-drop-through platform should not have another non-drop-through platform below it (to avoid excessive camping)
• Excessively wild terrain should be avoided (grid-snapping is highly encouraged to avoid the small quirks common in hand-drawn platforms)

 

[Piford]

Someone else said this but it's definitely right. Stage Builder is a difficult solution to a non-existant problem. We have tons of legal stages and having people agree on which stages should be legal is difficult. We tried in Brawl (with the arguably better stage builder, since it has a lot more structure and options) and it didn't work. New players don't want to come to a smash bros tournament and play on a stage they've never seen before, and new players is what keeps the community thriving. We can use the stages in the game to make a great stage list, so why not utilize them.

 

[Billcarlosbills]

Someone else said this but it's definitely right. Stage Builder is a difficult solution to a non-existant problem. We have tons of legal stages and having people agree on which stages should be legal is difficult. We tried in Brawl (with the arguably better stage builder, since it has a lot more structure and options) and it didn't work. New players don't want to come to a smash bros tournament and play on a stage they've never seen before, and new players is what keeps the community thriving. We can use the stages in the game to make a great stage list, so why not utilize them.

No one is saying that this should replace already legal stages, merely that this experiment could open up further legal stages. Emphasis strongly on "could". There's no reason not to be prepared for the inevitable stage sharing feature.

 

[Cornstalk]

SMALL STAGE vs FINAL DESTINATION

On the Wii U version, Fox will KO Peach with a specific starting % (before the hit) on Final Destination with both characters starting from a stand:

• 95% Up-Smash
• 133% Down-Smash (center stage)
• 93% Down-Smash (right at the edge)

For a Small custom stage to have similar size and blast dimensions:

• 32 blocks long (16 each way from the center)
• 2 blocks down from the blue center line

32 blocks is the exact length of Final Destination The silhouette of FD is actually 2 blocks too short (1 on each side).
Horizontal KOs will be slightly sooner at 130% from center and 91% from the edge.

2 Blocks down from the center will see Fox KO Peach with an Up-Smash starting at 95%, just like on FD. The lower blast zone at this height will only be 1 mario height taller than final destination (you need to go 4 blocks down from center to have a true FD gap from stage edge to lower blast zone)

Keep in mind that terrain friction is a thing. Grass reduces slide distance, which can really mess with grab releases and dashing Up-smashes. Some of the stage builder terrains use Grass, and the game is actually very specific. Patches of dirt still have normal slide friction even if they're tiny ones between the mostly grass surface. It's worth keeping this in mind if you're building it for competitive purposes.

Medium stages are 12 blocks larger (6 on each side) than the Small stages. This should achieve the gigantic blast zones of Dreamland pretty well. Unfortunately, creating the stages with small blast zones like Wario Ware and Metal Mario (PM) is currently impossible in the stage builder, as we're basically stuck with FD dimensions at the smallest.

Hope this useful for you clever builders

KO % for Fox vs Peach are specific to the Wii U version, as it takes a higher % on the 3DS version for the same scenarios. This information came about from the differences in the Omega version topic.

 

[lordvaati]

you could also remake 3DS stages that were competitvely viable such as the Tomodachi stage for the Wii U version (don't know what other ones were considered viable outside of that and FD and BF, if any).

Tamodachi,Ferox,Prism Tower,Yoshi,and (arguably) Reset forest.
Corn and Brin depending on who you ask.

And Tortimer and Magicant would have been perfect if it were not for the Trees and the Homie getting in the way.

Someone else said this but it's definitely right. Stage Builder is a difficult solution to a non-existant problem. We have tons of legal stages and having people agree on which stages should be legal is difficult. We tried in Brawl (with the arguably better stage builder, since it has a lot more structure and options) and it didn't work. New players don't want to come to a smash bros tournament and play on a stage they've never seen before, and new players is what keeps the community thriving. We can use the stages in the game to make a great stage list, so why not utilize them.

What I see here is actually an oppertunity to improve upon a concept that Nintendo introduced with Omega-having legal variants of stages. Which does work, but the isssue came from no Omegas having platforms, and while the main FD offenders are no longer an issue(Oli got a moveset reboot,Falco got the Nerf Bat,ICs GTFO) some still felt it cut options for some characters.

what I see is a compromise, because I would prefer not to go through 4 games with onlt 3-5 legal stages when we have THIS MANY tools to make more viable options.

 

[Piford]

what I see is a compromise, because I would prefer not to go through 4 games with onlt 3-5 legal stages when we have THIS MANY tools to make more viable options.

But in this game, we have like over 16 legal stages. I'm fine with adding even more stages; I just don't want people to adopt the attitude of "Why have x legal if we have y?"

 

[Smearglangelo]

I've already made some of the stages you guys mentioned...

Yoshi's Island:

This is my attempt to recreate the Yoshi's Island stage from Smash 64. I think I did a good job!

Fountain of Dreams:

Another old favorite from a previous game that I tried to recreate. The moving platforms are able to go through solid objects so I was able to make it look as if the platforms submerge into the "water" like they did in Melee. I'm not sure about how accurate the layout of this stage is compared to the original though. What do you guys think?

I also recreated Mushroom Kingdom 2, but that has walk-offs.

Edit:
People have been posting stages they've created on this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/what-custom-stages-have-you-created.379533/
If I notice anything that could contribute to this thread then I'll let you know.

 

[ChemicalExperiment]

But in this game, we have like over 16 legal stages. I'm fine with adding even more stages; I just don't want people to adopt the attitude of "Why have x legal if we have y?"

I have to agree. Being a new player myself, it would seem very strange for me to fight on a stage I've never seen before. However, the stage builder can be used very well for counterpicks at something like Nationals. I'm sure stages that counterpick specific characters can be very useful if there aren't any in the game already. So really, custom stages are good for when we don't have a certain type of stage that is needed.

Oh, and can you please tell me the 16 legal stages? Even if it isn't official, I'd still like someone with experience to say what would be good. I'd really like to know what to practice.

 

[popsofctown]

Someone else said this but it's definitely right. Stage Builder is a difficult solution to a non-existant problem. We have tons of legal stages and having people agree on which stages should be legal is difficult. We tried in Brawl (with the arguably better stage builder, since it has a lot more structure and options) and it didn't work. New players don't want to come to a smash bros tournament and play on a stage they've never seen before, and new players is what keeps the community thriving. We can use the stages in the game to make a great stage list, so why not utilize them.

That's why the best use of stage builder is to remove hazards from the stages the game provides. New players will recognize them.

 

[Piford]

I have to agree. Being a new player myself, it would seem very strange for me to fight on a stage I've never seen before. However, the stage builder can be used very well for counterpicks at something like Nationals. I'm sure stages that counterpick specific characters can be very useful if there aren't any in the game already. So really, custom stages are good for when we don't have a certain type of stage that is needed.

Oh, and can you please tell me the 16 legal stages? Even if it isn't official, I'd still like someone with experience to say what would be good. I'd really like to know what to practice.

Of course this is non-official but good candidates are

Battlefield
Big Battlefield
Final Destination
Mario Circuit (Wii U)
Delphino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Wooly World
Kongo Jungle 64
Skyloft
Norfair
Halberd
Orbital Gate Assault
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Town and City
Smashville
Duck Hunt
Pilot Wings
Wuhu Island
Windy Hill Zone

Of course some of these stages are debated against and some I didn't list are debated for.

That's why the best use of stage builder is to remove hazards from the stages the game provides. New players will recognize them.

But most of the stages with hazards are either bad, or the hazards aren't bad in this game. Halberd is an example of good stage hazards, predictable, easy to avoid, utilizable by the player, the hazards in Halberd add to the game. Stages like Flatzone and 75m won't benefit from removing hazards. Pyrosphere is the only stage I can see realistically being remade in stage builder without hazards, as its bad with hazards but good without.

 

[popsofctown]

So I only played Halberd once, but does it still have the claw? You can say nice positive things about the other hazard and I'll buy them, but the claw is bad (and not utilizable by the less lucky player)

 

[Billcarlosbills]

SMALL STAGE vs FINAL DESTINATION



Hope this useful for you clever builders

KO % for Fox vs Peach are specific to the Wii U version, as it takes a higher % on the 3DS version for the same scenarios. This information came about from the differences in the Omega version topic.

Awesome info. Thanks! I just wish we could throw in other stages to get this information more easily.

How did you get yours? Just curious.

 

[Dragoomba]

We tried in Brawl (with the arguably better stage builder, since it has a lot more structure and options) and it didn't work.

The Stage Builder in Brawl had terribly distanced blastzones on all of the sizes, and if you tried to make a small simple stage, you had a horrible amount of empty space. Another big problem was that you had no freedom with the structure of the stage. You had to make it either a giant cube or extremely jaggy with a bunch of tiny cubes.

Sure, there's no more wacky objects like spikes or really awkward platforms, but for creating viable stages, this game's stage builder is MILES above Brawl's.

 

[Saito]

Holy ****.

Stage sharing can't get here soon enough.

I can't into stage builder.

 

[Dragoomba]

Of course this is non-official but good candidates are

Battlefield
Big Battlefield
Final Destination
Mario Circuit (Wii U)
Delphino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Wooly World
Kongo Jungle 64
Skyloft
Norfair
Halberd
Orbital Gate Assault
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Town and City
Smashville
Duck Hunt
Pilot Wings
Wuhu Island
Windy Hill Zone

Of course some of these stages are debated against and some I didn't list are debated for.

I struck through every stage that was a ridiculous suggestion.

Stages that were banned in Brawl, what possible reason would there be for them not to be banned in this game?

There's a lot of janky tiered stages in here. I feel like Skyloft is Delfino without water though, so that may slide.

Some people seem to be in favor of the Duck Hunt stage, but all it is is a glorified omega stage with one tree platform and an annoying fixed camera. Many players were frustrated with the omega version of Wario Ware in the 3DS version because of the stupid fixed camera, so I don't see how this one would be any different.

There's a reason Kongo Jungle was eventually banned in Melee, and this can go coincide with Windy Hill and Big Battlefield as well. I do believe these could be potentially interesting doubles stages though.

Two of these remaining stages are the two Brawl counterpicks (Halberd and Castle Siege) with glaring problems that would more than likely be banned if competitive stage builder stages become a thing.

 

[Babali Boon]

Stages that were banned in Brawl, what possible reason would there be for them not to be banned in this game?

Meta Knight.

 

[Piford]

I struck through every stage that was a ridiculous suggestion.

Stages that were banned in Brawl, what possible reason would there be for them not to be banned in this game?

There's a lot of janky tiered stages in here. I feel like Skyloft is Delfino without water though, so that may slide.

Some people seem to be in favor of the Duck Hunt stage, but all it is is a glorified omega stage with one tree platform and an annoying fixed camera. Many players were frustrated with the omega version of Wario Ware in the 3DS version because of the stupid fixed camera, so I don't see how this one would be any different.

There's a reason Kongo Jungle was eventually banned in Melee, and this can go coincide with Windy Hill and Big Battlefield as well. I do believe these could be potentially interesting doubles stages though.

Two of these remaining stages are the two Brawl counterpicks (Halberd and Castle Siege) with glaring problems that would more than likely be banned if competitive stage builder stages become a thing.

Kongo Jungle is smaller now and that solves the problem in melee.

Duck hunt has like 6 platforms, nothing at all like Final destination.

Windy Hill Zone has no problematic camping potential (every stage has some, and Windy Hill seems to have less than FD) from what I've played. Big Battlefield has more potential, but it needs to be proven in tournament use.

Janky is never a reason to ban a stage (nor is it a word). Water is also not a reason.

Tons of stages were banned in brawl because of Meta Knight (Delphino and Luigi's Mansion), plus stages have had problems fixed through either actually being fixed or through engine changes (See Pokemon Stadium 2 and Norfair). Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise are often legal in Meta Knight Banned tournies in Brawl, but there banned in Melee. Stages and mechanic change between games.

The only problem with Castle Siege (chain grabbing with walk-offs) and Halberd (Sharking with glides, specifically Meta Knight) have been fixed, so why ban them at all?

This discussion should be moved to the Stage Analysis and Discussion thread after this.

 

[Dragoomba]

This discussion should be moved to the Stage Analysis and Discussion thread after this.

http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-analysis-discussion-thread.367708/page-45#post-18063259

Holy ****.

Stage sharing can't get here soon enough.

I can't into stage builder.

Do we even have a confirmed date on this yet (along with the Miiverse stage)?

 

[Aguki90]

I made original version of Competitive stage builder.

I test with myself and some CPU Lv. 9 and... He works!

These Stage work better and sometime, are more fun than the Final Destination Mode of the stage.
Characters can have advantage or disvantage or even make Little Mac and Duck Hunt more trouble.

Keep It Up. For now they work Very, very well, As Long there no hazard and Grable edge.

 

[Cornstalk]

Awesome info. Thanks! I just wish we could throw in other stages to get this information more easily.

How did you get yours? Just curious.

Went into training because moves won't stale and damage doesn't caused increased launch power (rage effect).

To ensure there was no DI I set the computer player to Control (so no chance of DI).

Then it was a matter of finding a % in which it would result in a KO from the same positions every time, while 1% less would mean survival. I chose Fox as my attacker because he has very easy to land and consistent hit boxes on his Up-Smash (mostly straight up), and Down-Smash (mostly horizontal).

Peach was actually chosen originally because of her short Fox Trot and her Parasol float to measure length and height of the stage compared to the lower blast zone (It takes her ~8.5 seconds if you Up-b off the edge and float to the bottom). Since I had already confirmed her KO% on FD and all the Omegas to be constantly the same, I just stuck with her as my KO dummy.

It takes Peach 5 rolls to completely cover the length of Final Destination and 10.5 fox trots, which is what I used to confirm that the FD silhouette in the stage builder was too short. Setting up different platforms at different grid areas was trial and error until I found the level where Peach died off the top at 95% but not 94%.

Finding out grass had friction was a complete fluke when it took Peach 15.5 fox trots instead of 10.5 to cover the length of the Mario Galaxy Omega stage. I was able to reliably duplicate the same animations on stage builder grass including getting her to slide on the small dirt patches, which have normal friction.


If you're trying to achieve the same blast zones on existing Wii U stages, just follow the same steps:

• Find the reliable KO % on that stage
• Find the right level to build on in stage builder to duplicate that KO %

You can use any characters to test with... but I really like fox because of his Up and Down Smash being extremely consistent. Characters like Mario and Marth have different parts of the animation with different knock backs, so your results can end up being very strange and hard to duplicate.

As far as bringing a stage over from melee/brawl/project M... Get an FD standard on the chosen game, get a % difference if it's bigger or smaller (dreamland may be 120% bigger, while wario ware may be 80% smaller, NOT accurate, just an example) then adjust the damage required for KO on Smash 4 by that % to know what you're shooting for. Mathematical!

 

[Babali Boon]

@ Cornstalk Brilliant work. Truly.

 

[Sluigi123]

• The vertical distance between platforms directly above each other should be at least 6 blocks (Mario is 3 blocks tall)

Shouldn't it be 5 blocks high? Some characters can't reach 6 blocks high with one jump, like Little Mac. At least keep an eye on that.

Examples:

• Little Mac double jumps 10 Blocks high.
• Mario double jumps 14 blocks high.
• Falco ground jumps 10 blocks high. (1 Jump!)

 

[ATH_]

I've made some stages based on stages transformations. For instance, I made one based on Pokemon Stadium's original state. As well as one based on Reset Bomb Forest's original state, but with a few tweaks. Also, I'd like to know, what would be the best way to get a screenshot from the Wii U onto here? Also how does one take a screenshot? I just recently got a Wii U for Smash, so, I know very little of how to use it.

 

[Babali Boon]

I just used my phone to take my screenshots and then I uploaded them here!

 

[RODO]

Wario ware obviously should be a thing

 

[Babali Boon]

I made my own WarioWare Inc. but in this game unfortunately Wario doesn't do as good on it.

 

[camzaman]

Someone else said this but it's definitely right. Stage Builder is a difficult solution to a non-existant problem. We have tons of legal stages and having people agree on which stages should be legal is difficult. We tried in Brawl (with the arguably better stage builder, since it has a lot more structure and options) and it didn't work. New players don't want to come to a smash bros tournament and play on a stage they've never seen before, and new players is what keeps the community thriving. We can use the stages in the game to make a great stage list, so why not utilize them.

This is a silly argument. The WiiU has more legal stages, but they are more generic with less variety for balance and excitement. The community will develop a list of evolving tourney legal created stages and it will be amazing.

 

[Piford]

This is a silly argument. The WiiU has more legal stages, but they are more generic with less variety for balance and excitement. The community will develop a list of evolving tourney legal created stages and it will be amazing.

The custom stages are legitimately generic. And there's a great variety of legal stages as none of them have even close to a similar layout. I'm not arguing against making custom stages legal, I'm arguing against making custom stages instead of using the great stage list we already have.