The Belmont problem: finding a solution

[Crystanium]

Anyone who has ever fought a Belmont knows full well what options he uses when his opponent is off-stage. Not all characters seem to suffer, but in my experience, once I'm forced off-stage, I expect the Belmont's static meta-game to kick in. Holy Cross, then Holy Water, then Axe. Or maybe not Axe, but just wait. If the opponent rolls, f-smash. If the opponent gets up, f-smash. If the opponent jumps, Axe. If the opponent stays at the ledge, diagonally downward f-smash.

I used to think the Belmonts needed a better recovery. Throw them off-stage and there you go. But it doesn't work like that, and even if the trade-off was a strong stage coverage with a poor recovery, it doesn't help. I would have expected Sakurai & Co. to have realized this by now, considering Cloud in SSB4. I'm not saying the Belmonts are better than Cloud, but notice the common trade-off, such as Little Mac's hard-hitting attacks with awful recovery.

Since complaining may or may not remedy this excellent stage control for the Belmonts, I must ask how one can escape this situation the majority of time without being character-dependent. In other words, how can all characters get around this? If I had the solution, I wouldn't be asking for advice.

 

[FartyParty]

ZeRo has a video on dealing with projectiles with a segment specifically related to the Belmonts. After they throw the holy water on the ledge, wait until the animation is almost over then do a regular get up or get up attack. Your invincibility frames on the get up should then outlast the remainder of the holy water animation and should still be active if the Belmont tries to f-smash right away. If they don't f-smash right away you have an opportunity to move or shield or perform some other action to get away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q11SyyZc4z4

 

[Perfect patricia]

I wish the holy water wasn’t a guarantee forward smash because you can’t DI our of it compared to ness pk fire. It has a hitbox when he throws it and if it connects it’s the easiest kill of their life. But the best thing I do for the ledge trap is try to jump down and wait for holy water to disappear then roll back into the stage or jump up, but most the time if I’m at the ledge verse the Belmont’s I’m just gonna die unless I’m issabelle and pocket their stuff hehe

 

[porkchop.pirate]

as a metwo main i generally try to diagonally airdodge into the stage and waveland getting off the ledge and this generally takes them by surprise. Of course I have to switch it up after doing it once or twice, but it usually lets me get a downtilt after they throw the axe when they see me ledge jumping. Might not work for all characters, but that is something I do that can help

 

[Crystanium]

ZeRo has a video on dealing with projectiles with a segment specifically related to the Belmonts. After they throw the holy water on the ledge, wait until the animation is almost over then do a regular get up or get up attack. Your invincibility frames on the get up should then outlast the remainder of the holy water animation and should still be active if the Belmont tries to f-smash right away. If they don't f-smash right away you have an opportunity to move or shield or perform some other action to get away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q11SyyZc4z4

I've seen this video, but I wish there was more that could be done. Otherwise, if there's a future patch for Holy Water, I'd request that it function more like Piranha Plant's Poison Breath instead. I cannot recall a single Castlevania game where Holy Water prevented the enemies from moving in and out of the flame.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Anyone who has ever fought a Belmont knows full well what options he uses when his opponent is off-stage. Not all characters seem to suffer, but in my experience, once I'm forced off-stage, I expect the Belmont's static meta-game to kick in. Holy Cross, then Holy Water, then Axe. Or maybe not Axe, but just wait. If the opponent rolls, f-smash. If the opponent gets up, f-smash. If the opponent jumps, Axe. If the opponent stays at the ledge, diagonally downward f-smash.

I used to think the Belmonts needed a better recovery. Throw them off-stage and there you go. But it doesn't work like that, and even if the trade-off was a strong stage coverage with a poor recovery, it doesn't help. I would have expected Sakurai & Co. to have realized this by now, considering Cloud in SSB4. I'm not saying the Belmonts are better than Cloud, but notice the common trade-off, such as Little Mac's hard-hitting attacks with awful recovery.

Since complaining may or may not remedy this excellent stage control for the Belmonts, I must ask how one can escape this situation the majority of time without being character-dependent. In other words, how can all characters get around this? If I had the solution, I wouldn't be asking for advice.

It's about timing.

you know what moves he uses, but when does he use it? does he throws a axe before or after you jump? If you see him winding up to do a downward Fsmash, why don't you get up to use the invincibility frames then? Why not wait and let him make a move first?

realize this; what move does he have to beat a jump on reaction? axe is slow on startup, Fair is slow, Uair is finnicky, cross is horizontal, holy water is a no, etc... he can't beat you on reaction besides a Nair. Most of the moves you listed are slow on startup, which means a belmont can not react with those moves. They only do proactive stuff. Like guessing.

And the belmonts aren't alone in this. Wait until you play a good snake. You'll see the concept of timing enforced with being on the ledge against pretty much every character. Because every character can do that to some degree.

 

[MG_3989]

There isn’t a Belmont problem. They’re decent characters but not even close to a problem. Just get them offstage and gimp them. Rush them down when you’re on stage, their projectile pattern is usually super predictable. Once you get in on them they’re done. They do have a great ledge trapping game but you just have to mix up your recovery against them. If you don’t they’ll trap you every time. It’s not polarizing though and they’re definitely not a problem

 

[meleebrawler]

I've seen this video, but I wish there was more that could be done. Otherwise, if there's a future patch for Holy Water, I'd request that it function more like Piranha Plant's Poison Breath instead. I cannot recall a single Castlevania game where Holy Water prevented the enemies from moving in and out of the flame.

Never heard of how Dracula in Castlevania 2 can be killed with it while never letting him move?

 

[Arrei]

There isn’t a Belmont problem. They’re decent characters but not even close to a problem. Just get them offstage and gimp them. Rush them down when you’re on stage, their projectile pattern is usually super predictable. Once you get in on them they’re done. They do have a great ledge trapping game but you just have to mix up your recovery against them. If you don’t they’ll trap you every time. It’s not polarizing though and they’re definitely not a problem

That's not really a universal game plan though, not every character can just get in on them and stay there. Slower and/or bigger characters that rely on a lot of spacing are at a disadvantage when the Belmonts have both projectiles and long reach, since their tilts and Nair are also pretty dang good.

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

In my experience, fighting the belmont's can be made much easier with an aggressive-to-passive playstyle. Their projectiles have a noticible amount of lag, as well as a predictable pattern. There are a few routes you can go. You can counter his projectile spam with your own, (but thats kind of a dirty stoop-to-his-level kind of thing) You can bait out his projectiles, roll behind and punish with a quick attack, like a dash attack or an aerial. You can also try to get him airborn. A Belmont in the air is as useful as a bike with no tires. And theres always the good ol' "be as aggressive as possible" strategy. If you notice a lot of projectile spam and/or find an exploitable pattern (eg. This Belmont always whips after he throws his axe, or This Belmont will always use a holy water after he uses the boomerang.) when you find a time with enough lag, like the axe throw, you can go in for a grab combo.

In my experience with Ness (AKA your results may vary) Playing passively with spot dodges and rolls, baiting out projectiles and whips, then switching to a very aggressive endlag punish works out the best for me. Try to get em airborn and either go for aerials (if your character's are good) or go for a landing read. Offstage can be a terrible area for them, but if your character doesn;t have the ledge control capabilities, let the Belmont make the first move off ledge. if he rolls past you, roll as well. try to stay as close as possible while also being safe and wait for your chance. a ledge jump is easier to deal with, just stay away from the diagonal whip. etc etc etc. Be careful of that dang whip.

EDIT: zoo wee mama happy 25th post to me

 

[Crystanium]

It's about timing.

you know what moves he uses, but when does he use it? does he throws a axe before or after you jump? If you see him winding up to do a downward Fsmash, why don't you get up to use the invincibility frames then? Why not wait and let him make a move first?

I could give that a try. I don't know if you haven't noticed that getting up isn't as safe as it was in SSB4. You're safer using a get-up attack, but in this situation, the get-up attack is out of range. There's also the issue of invincibility being lower depending on your percentage. I don't think you earn more invincibility frames if you've been hanging at the ledge. Of course, a properly placed Holy Water will hit your hand.

Wait until you play a good snake. You'll see the concept of timing enforced with being on the ledge against pretty much every character. Because every character can do that to some degree.

I can't tell you whether or not the Snakes I've played were good in your eyes. I've been at the ledge, trying to return. I find it easier. I've watched ESAM's Samus deal with pro Snakes.

There isn’t a Belmont problem. They’re decent characters but not even close to a problem.

This is equivocal. I'm not alone in this. Who am I dealing with? The Belmonts. What's the problem? Their strategy. Please don't take what I'm saying as a complaint because I'm over that. Rather, I am seeking a solution, not just for myself, but for others as well.

Just get them offstage and gimp them.

Easier said than done.

Rush them down when you’re on stage, their projectile pattern is usually super predictable.

Holy Cross is pretty effective, and getting hit by it launches you upward. Maybe with enough practice I'll be able to deal with this, but being predictable or knowing what to expect doesn't suddenly resolve the issue. Maybe you've played against others, saw what they were doing, and still got hit. It's not that you're stupid or slow to learn. These things just happen. Even being fully aware of Zelda using Farore's Wind to hit me, I got hit over and over again. I personally thought that was pathetic, but I was being hard on myself.

Once you get in on them they’re done.

If only. Even my Pit struggled.

They do have a great ledge trapping game but you just have to mix up your recovery against them. If you don’t they’ll trap you every time. It’s not polarizing though and they’re definitely not a problem

It's not about recovery. It's about being stuck at the ledge.

Anyway, thank you for the input, everyone.