The bad things from vMelee.

[DrinkingFood]

This, man, is because most of my friends who didn't play competitively had to do a jump and land before being able to do an up tilt. It's not really that hard to work around, but it always bothered me and my friends.

I think your friends might be ******** dude
I could utilt without jumping before I even hit puberty

 

[Saito]

I think your friends might be ******** dude
I could utilt without jumping before I even hit puberty

Some people just have trouble with it.

You gotta accept the fact that a lot of people just don't have it in them to get things like this.
You also gotta accept the fact that a lot of people just don't want to learn either.

 

[Viceversa96]

I think your friends might be ******** dude
I could utilt without jumping before I even hit puberty

Lol that's exactly why it's called up TILT and not SMASH THE STICK UP TILT.

 

[Vashimus]

Don't you just buffer the tilt within the animation of another move? That's how I do it.

 

[Burnsy]

That's really bad because you're having to wait for an entire move to finish before you start the one you intended to do.

 

[Vashimus]

Doesn't matter if you're using it in a combo anyway. If I wanna to do a raw up-tilt, I'll just whiff something quick like a jab.

 

[Rizner]

that's still not too great, because people

Doesn't matter if you're using it in a combo anyway. If I wanna to do a raw up-tilt, I'll just whiff something quick like a jab.

Will be able to read it better, and some characters could use a tilt to start things mute than others. Once you get down the pressure needed to trigger it is not too hard to do, just takes getting used to. For a note, I use tap jump and often up tilt (kirby has a strong up tilt so gotr used to for him)

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Also, they didn't bring back Saffron City, N64 Hyrule Castle, or N64 Mushroom Kingdom (with the warp pipes)! That was a shame.

 

[666blaziken]

Not being able to turn off tap to jump always sort of irked me.

I also had this issue with pikachu. Sometimes when the opponent does something stupid and I want to punish by running up to them and upsmashing them, sometimes I will press the jump button a little too quickly and jump slightly rather than actually upsmashing.

 

[Strong Badam]

I also had this issue with pikachu. Sometimes when the opponent does something stupid and I want to punish by running up to them and upsmashing them, sometimes I will press the jump button a little too quickly and jump slightly rather than actually upsmashing.

You can just use the C-Stick to Up-Smash.

 

[Vashimus]

You can't do running up-smashes like that in Melee though.

 

[1MachGO]

Spikes vs. Meteors:

People seem very misinformed about spikes and I can't believe that its on people's lists of bad Melee mechanics.

1. In melee, an attack with a trajectory going perfectly downward can be meteor cancelled. However, some attacks (Fox and Falco's dair, parts of Marth and Falcon's dair, and Ganon's aerial down-b) hit opponents down at an angled trajectory. Since the meteor cancel mechanic doesn't apply to these trajectories, they cannot be cancelled. In Brawl, the range of downward trajectories which can be meteor cancelled was increased. However, iirc, the PMBR were able to add spikes back in by adding 360 degrees to an attack trajectory; creating attacks which could not be meteor cancelled.

2. The difference between spikes and meteors cannot be simplified to "one is useful" and "one sucks". As everyone knows, meteors and spikes on grounded opponents causes them to launch upwards with (I believe?) 20% less knockback but with normal hitstun. This is why Falcon's stomp>knee combo is so reliable because Falcon has copious amounts of frame advantage to work with before he lands the knee. However, another reason why Falcon's stomp knee combo works so well is BECAUSE it is a meteor. Since meteors have a vertical trajectory, they are significantly harder to DI, and, at the correct percents, lead to practically inescapable follow ups. Spikes, on the other hand, bounce opponents at angled trajectories which makes them unreliable vs. good DI.
tl;dr: meteors are better vs. grounded opponents, spikes are better vs. offstage opponents

3. Melee meteor cancelling is a much worse mechanic than spikes. In Melee, an airborne opponent can cancel out of a meteor with a jump or up-b in about 6 or 10 frames or something ridiculous. The fact that people complain about spikes but don't see the fault in this mechanic rendering all meteor smashes completely unreliable as a finisher is a complete mystery to me. Luckily, the PMBR recognized the fault in meteor cancelling and not spikes so this is the mechanic that got adjusted in PM; meteors are significantly more viable for an offstage attack while spikes are still kept to add more depth to characters and the game.

 

[Scarlet Bean]

why do you guys have to be so nerdy

 

[Crescent Monkey]

Why do people not like the ledge roll thing? It makes simply holding the edge vs a character like Fox who has a hitbox on his Up-B the entire time, and a character like Falcon who does not the same. Removing this mechanic would just buff recoveries with hitboxes while screwing over ones that don't, thats not cool. Sure it doesnt make a ton of sense in that the character left the edge, but its still occupied, but as a mechanic, its an excellent one that I'm sad was removed from brawl.

 

[DrinkingFood]

why do you guys have to be so nerdy

'cuz ur mum likes nerdy guys
#rekt

 

[NoAh MenQui]

Have not read the whole thread but about CC'

Don't nerf it giving it more end lag, Pikachu's Short Jump, Fair, Fast Fall, L-Cancel > (Grab or Up Smash)

if not CC' you just get punished for trying to grab or attack.

Some character scan escape this as Bowser's Up, Marth's and some other moves with invinsibilities tend to let you out, but he just beats the whole cast with just that.

Just don't nerf the CC', learn to use your footsie's (term from traditional fighting games), atack with attacks disjointed or tip of hitboxes, use safe moves, get their % high and CC' will stop being as good at certain damage.

That is al I had to say

Not O.o

I think melee should have the PAL version of marth and falco Dair which are meteors and Falco's has a sweetspot which meteors else, it works like Luigi's, sending at a sakurai Trajectory. (spikes are not for me)

Now I am done

 

[JRC LSS]

Spikes vs. Meteors:

People seem very misinformed about spikes and I can't believe that its on people's lists of bad Melee mechanics.

1. In melee, an attack with a trajectory going perfectly downward can be meteor cancelled. However, some attacks (Fox and Falco's dair, parts of Marth and Falcon's dair, and Ganon's aerial down-b) hit opponents down at an angled trajectory. Since the meteor cancel mechanic doesn't apply to these trajectories, they cannot be cancelled. In Brawl, the range of downward trajectories which can be meteor cancelled was increased. However, iirc, the PMBR were able to add spikes back in by adding 360 degrees to an attack trajectory; creating attacks which could not be meteor cancelled.

2. The difference between spikes and meteors cannot be simplified to "one is useful" and "one sucks". As everyone knows, meteors and spikes on grounded opponents causes them to launch upwards with (I believe?) 20% less knockback but with normal hitstun. This is why Falcon's stomp>knee combo is so reliable because Falcon has copious amounts of frame advantage to work with before he lands the knee. However, another reason why Falcon's stomp knee combo works so well is BECAUSE it is a meteor. Since meteors have a vertical trajectory, they are significantly harder to DI, and, at the correct percents, lead to practically inescapable follow ups. Spikes, on the other hand, bounce opponents at angled trajectories which makes them unreliable vs. good DI.
tl;dr: meteors are better vs. grounded opponents, spikes are better vs. offstage opponents

3. Melee meteor cancelling is a much worse mechanic than spikes. In Melee, an airborne opponent can cancel out of a meteor with a jump or up-b in about 6 or 10 frames or something ridiculous. The fact that people complain about spikes but don't see the fault in this mechanic rendering all meteor smashes completely unreliable as a finisher is a complete mystery to me. Luckily, the PMBR recognized the fault in meteor cancelling and not spikes so this is the mechanic that got adjusted in PM; meteors are significantly more viable for an offstage attack while spikes are still kept to add more depth to characters and the game.

Spikes really seem like a design oversight in Melee though. I was unaware that it was due to the angle of the attack, which makes some sense. Their purpose however, is still to send people downward. You use these moves just as you would use a meteor smash. The fact that a few select moves can essentially insta-kill if hit correctly, while all of the other downward moves can be survived to very high percents seems a bit unfair.

With that said, meteor canceling is pretty overpowered in its own right. It would've been good to see a middle ground reached that normalized all downward hitting moves-cancelable/survivable at lower percents, but ensures a kill at higher percents. Maybe that's something brawl got right.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I think part of the point of his post there was to say that spikes aren't an oversight, meteors are an exception. Which is true- meteors are the only angles of attacks that can be canceled in melee/P:M. At some angle a line has to be drawn where eveything past that can't be meteor canceled, otherwise you'd have brawl-level hitstun canceling for everything that sends horizontally or lower. Or worse, for everything.

 

[Chzrm3]

I think the worst thing about Melee is that they ruined Corneria. : P That was one of the best stages, and they just kind of shrank it for no real reason.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

You also gotta accept the fact that a lot of people just don't want to learn either.

P:M confirmed for ppl who do not want to learn.

 

[Kroboats]

Lol that's exactly why it's called up TILT and not SMASH THE STICK UP TILT.

True, but I'm a man who likes to press his thumb up real hard sometimes when he does an up tilt. Teach that darn up tilt a lesson. I only got used to it in melee because I didn't have a choice. I've since been spoiled by P:M allowing me to customize my controls, and now I find it somewhat difficult to readjust. Not saying it can't be done, I'd just prefer to have the option to disable it.

 

[UberMario]

I think part of the point of his post there was to say that spikes aren't an oversight, meteors are an exception

Perhaps, but it would seem that Marth's down aerial being turned into a meteor smash in the PAL (and latest) version indicates otherwise, especially when there are other absurd bugs like Captain Falcon's and Ganondorf's down b granting a new mid-air jump (from what I've heard it's because the the beginning of the animation is treated as grounded even in mid-air) and Bowser's down throw being able to do 0% damage due to the hitboxes missing certain characters.

 

[Celestis]

The removal of Spikes in Brawl was such a disappointing thing. But then I realized the entire game was disappointing and moved on x]

The only complaint I have about some spikes is how easy some are to land. I love to play Falco, but I kinda wish his spike was A sweet spot or only in the early frames of ht attack. Even as the one playing as him, I find it mildly lame I can just throw it out there and let them hit me at any time n between with o real thought of timing and get the kill.

I think Lucas' Spike is done perfectly with it being a back air and only hits on the sweet spot. it has to actually be earned.
Marth is also pretty well balanced cause of that massive ending lag he suffers.

Also, I am not sure if this is a thing or not, but I Think I notice meteors have often higher base knock back while spikes rely on a growing knock back. I am not positive if this is true or not. I just know Ness' and Ganondorf's Meteors are very angry and powerful in early percents.

 

[Viceversa96]

Why do people not like the ledge roll thing? It makes simply holding the edge vs a character like Fox who has a hitbox on his Up-B the entire time, and a character like Falcon who does not the same. Removing this mechanic would just buff recoveries with hitboxes while screwing over ones that don't, thats not cool. Sure it doesnt make a ton of sense in that the character left the edge, but its still occupied, but as a mechanic, its an excellent one that I'm sad was removed from brawl.

Because it makes no ****ing sense. If a person is shown not grabbing the ledge I should be able to ****ing grab it.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I think your friends might be ******** dude
I could utilt without jumping before I even hit puberty

Aww don't be mean

 

[Paradoxium]

Because it makes no ****ing sense. If a person is shown not grabbing the ledge I should be able to ****ing grab it.

I hope you realise that almost every single mechanic and technique that we use makes no sense. Its a challenge to find one that does make sense

 

[Saito]

P:M confirmed for ppl who do not want to learn.

That also applies to every casual melee and brawl player.

There are a lot more of them than there are casual P:M players.

 

[Kati]

l cancelling makes sense. Wavedashing would make perfect sense if the animation didn't involve crouching so much. Not grabbing to save one's life because someone else's ass is the way..? or WAS in the way..? viceversa 96's point still stands.

 

[smashbro29]

l cancelling makes sense

No it doesn't.

 

[Kati]

It represents a conscious awareness of when one is landing, something that one can be easily distracted from paying attention to when they can jump midair, juggle people in the air, effortlessly pass through platforms, or simply neglect to do from being immune to gravity. Try jumping off of something with your eyes closed and landing just as gracefully as you would with your eyes open.

 

[Paradoxium]

l cancelling makes sense. Wavedashing would make perfect sense if the animation didn't involve crouching so much. Not grabbing to save one's life because someone else's *** is the way..? or WAS in the way..? viceversa 96's point still stands.

Yes is makes perfect sense how you can somehow press l and your character is magically standing straight after falling such a great distance. And it also makes sense that if you jump, right as you leave the ground you can get flung into it at an angle with so much force that you ignore friction and slide across the ground. If you put some thought into they really don't make sense, they were just accidents or things designed for better gameplay.

 

[Kati]

I'm not saying that wavedashing is intentional, but l cancelling definitely was.

Remember that perfect wavedashing doesn't actually involve jumping into the air. Wavelanding, sure. Wavedashing involves an input from the jump button, but the characters themselves are not necessarily jumping and flinging themselves. The net result of wavedashing is no different from basic shifting movements physical combatants employ in real life boxing or mma, but the issue you are hung up on is how smash characters achieve it by combining a jump input with a fictional air movement.

*edit*

another example. If you focus on the inputs we use to achieve these "things that don't make sense," then grabbing objects is by all means physically impossible. In smash, the grab button actually tells the game to both shield and press A simultaneously, hence the whole shield grab thing. Do we make bubble shields in real life..?

As long as you focus on the net result that occurs on screen, and ignore how we as players obtained those results, it does make sense.

 

[Paradoxium]

I'm not saying that wavedashing is intentional, but l cancelling definitely was.

Remember that perfect wavedashing doesn't actually involve jumping into the air. Wavelanding, sure. Wavedashing involves an input from the jump button, but the characters themselves are not necessarily jumping and flinging themselves. The net result of wavedashing is no different from basic shifting movements physical combatants employ in real life boxing or mma, but the issue you are hung up on is how smash characters achieve it by combining a jump input with a fictional air movement.

*edit*

another example. If you focus on the inputs we use to achieve these "things that don't make sense," then grabbing objects is by all means physically impossible. In smash, the grab button actually tells the game to both shield and press A simultaneously, hence the whole shield grab thing. Do we make bubble shields in real life..?

As long as you focus on the net result that occurs on screen, and ignore how we as players obtained those results, it does make sense.

Listen, my point is that i DON'T CARE if something doesn't make sense, it shouldn't matter that much. It also does not matter if it was intentional or not, only if it helps the game. And wavedashing is beyond physics and logic, there is no way to justify that one

 

[Xinc]

Listen, my point is that i DON'T CARE if something doesn't make sense, it shouldn't matter that much. It also does not matter if it was intentional or not, only if it helps the game. And wavedashing is beyond physics and logic, there is no way to justify that one

Just gonna lay this out there. It doesn't have to follow physics or logic. Not all video games have to. By your logic, characters shouldn't be able to double jump or use their Up-B recovery.

 

[Blue Doc]

I've always been interested to know why the game still thinks you are grabbing the ledge. Like what causes the bug? I know that ledge occupancy in Melee is highly illogical but for some reason I really like it. Maybe because it looks amusing .

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I've always been interested to know why the game still thinks you are grabbing the ledge. Like what causes the bug? I know that ledge occupancy in Melee is highly illogical but for some reason I really like it. Maybe because it looks amusing .

Well, your character is still technically using the ledge for their get-up animation. A similar technique exists in 64 for the 100%+ get-up attack, I believe.

Most likely, they just didn't go back and flag the ledge as unoccupied after a certain point in the roll, causing the entire animation to edge hog it.

 

[Paradoxium]

Just gonna lay this out there. It doesn't have to follow physics or logic. Not all video games have to. By your logic, characters shouldn't be able to double jump or use their Up-B recovery.

Please, i have already stated that i do not care if something makes sense, i also dont care if it follows logic or physics, i was just pointing out how silly it was when people say they didnt want a mechanic in the game because it doesnt make sense, when we all know that there are several things in the game that dont make sense

 

[Xinc]

Please, i have already stated that i do not care if something makes sense, i also dont care if it follows logic or physics, i was just pointing out how silly it was when people say they didnt want a mechanic in the game because it doesnt make sense, when we all know that there are several things in the game that dont make sense

So why does it matter to you that wavedashing makes no sense if you don't care? :o

 

[Xebenkeck]

Phantom hits were the stupidest thing about melee. But i'm pretty sure the PMBR got rid of them.

You hit them............but you really didn't.

 

[MonkUnit]

We didn't get rid of Melee's phantom hits. Brawl didn't have phantom hits to begin with.