The bad things from vMelee.

[Viceversa96]

I wanted to ask you guys (the community) what are some BAD things you want removed from PM or bad mechanics from Melee that are in PM?
I can only think of one thing that should be removed from PM that was from Melee. That thing where if the roll on the ledge the game still thinks you are grabbing it, I feel this is a dumb mechanic that needs to go. I think that is the only improvement Brawl had over Melee.
Any of you have anything else? Other bad mechanics?

 

[Shadic]

Pichu.

 

[DrinkingFood]

PMBR kinda toned down the whole ledge occupancy thing you're talking about. It's not as bad as melee, it's still there to some extent though.
I think not being able to drop through platforms during landing animation is pretty stupid. Having a work around like walking -> dropping or shield -> dropping be necessary is beyond me.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

MELEE IS PERFECT! MELEE IS GOD! BCUZ MELEE!

 

[Viceversa96]

Pichu.

Lol I fixed the post

 

[Viceversa96]

PMBR kinda toned down the whole ledge occupancy thing you're talking about. It's not as bad as melee, it's still there to some extent though.
I think not being able to drop through platforms during landing animation is pretty stupid. Having a work around like walking -> dropping or shield -> dropping be necessary is beyond me.

I think Crouch Cancelling should be removed because why should I get punished for hitting my opponent? I love using CC but I think it is a dumb mechanic.

 

[drsusredfish]

CC is like a secondary "shield" in P:M, Tertiary shield in melee. And just like with a regular shield if you hit it the wrong way you get punished.

 

[Ogopogo]

I think CC's a good counter to being hit... I like it. Also, Battlefield's weird ledge stuff???

 

[Vashimus]

Spacies

Sent from the Book of Eli

 

[Paradoxium]

I think Crouch Cancelling should be removed because why should I get punished for hitting my opponent? I love using CC but I think it is a dumb mechanic.

Crouch canceling stops some moves from being op, when a move is cc'able your opponent cant just throw it out they have to space it as well as time it, and it will sometimes force them to do a different move altogether. I feel if your using a cc'able move to a grounded opponent at low percents then you do need to be punished

 

[DrinkingFood]

I think Crouch Cancelling should be removed because why should I get punished for hitting my opponent? I love using CC but I think it is a dumb mechanic.

I wasn't talking about crouch canceling tho

 

[UberMario]

I always found these things irreconcilably awful about vMelee:

-More than half of the cast being useless against the top 8 characters, even when playing casually *looks at Kirby*
-Lack of map designs that are unique and simultaneously fun in both competitive and casual play (the 5 neutral stages in Melee are basically a flat stage and four subtle variations of Battlefield, this was one of the few things Brawl did right imo in terms of gameplay)
-Unable to disable exploding containers
-Most side B recoveries do not latch onto ledges (Ice Climbers, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf in particular suffer from this the most due to ending up in a freefall straight after)
-Ganondorf being a Falcon clone
-Introduced phantom hits/glancing blows
-Introduced randomness to moves (i.e. misfires, stitchface veggies, 9 judgements)
-Spikes being an oversight, as they are actually meteor smashes that are not programmed to be cancelled
-Invincibility from pratfalling despite not floor-teching (which kills a lot of combo potential for worse characters)
-Horizontal-trajectory aerial sweetspots tending to be ludicrously powerful and with short enough end lag to be usable unpunished in many situations
-Ledge Occupancy lasting to the end of the animation instead of as soon as the character no longer visually is holding the ledge
-Shields not being as punishable as in 64
-Smash attacks not being as punishable as in 64
-Most low-tier and mid-tier characters having awful off-stage games compared to in 64, Brawl and Project M
-Clone attacks usually following a common pattern of "do something the opposite of what the original moveset holder does", even when it doesn't make any sense for the attack to work that way


If anything, the pratfalling thing is the only one I could see and want gone from Project M, as they handled the horizontal sweetspot knockback and randomness quite nicely (although I'd like to see containers have a 0% chance of exploding by default so that they feel usable, I always seem to have to disable them if I ever (rarely) play with items on), though I doubt they'll change either.

*grabs flameshield*

 

[Burnsy]

CC can be really dumb the way it ends up working in certain situations (due to any combination of the move used vs percentage vs the character CCing). That said, removing it entirely would completely turn the metagame on its head, which in turn creates a ton of balancing work for the PMBR, and has a chance of backlash if people don't like the result.

I would like to see it refined in some way, either by adjusting thresholds or creating a specific percentage % limit where it stops working altogether. I'm not sure what grand scale effect either of these ideas would have on the current metagame, but I hope the PMBR has/will look into non-intrusive ways to adjust the system. It seems like its one of the only prevalent melee mechanics that is routinely questioned and debated in terms of its qualities as a mechanic.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I always found these things irreconcilably awful about vMelee:

-More than half of the cast being useless against the top 8 characters, even when playing casually *looks at Kirby*
-Lack of map designs that are unique and simultaneously fun in both competitive and casual play (the 5 neutral stages in Melee are basically a flat stage and four subtle variations of Battlefield, this was one of the few things Brawl did right imo in terms of gameplay)
-Unable to disable exploding containers
-Ganondorf being a Falcon clone
-Introduced phantom hits/glancing blows
-Introduced randomness to moves (i.e. misfires, stitchface veggies, 9 judgements)
-Spikes being an oversight, as they are actually meteor smashes that are not programmed to be cancelled
-Invincibility from pratfalling despite not floor-teching (which kills a lot of combo potential for worse characters)
-Horizontal-trajectory sweetspots tending to be ludicrously powerful and
-Ledge Occupancy lasting to the end of the animation instead of as soon as the character no longer visually is holding the ledge
-Shields not being as punishable as in 64
-Smash attacks not being as punishable as in 64
-Most low-tier and mid-tier characters having awful off-stage games compared to in 64, Brawl and Project M
-Clone attacks usually following a common pattern of "do something the opposite of what the original moveset holder does", even when it doesn't make any sense for the attack to work that way


If anything, the pratfalling thing is the only one I could see and want gone from Project M, as they handled the horizontal sweetspot knockback and randomness quite nicely (although I'd like to see containers have a 0% chance of exploding so that they feel usable, I always seem to have to disable them if I ever (rarely) play with items on), though I doubt they'll change either.

*grabs flameshield*

Blame Sakurai
also
-Invincibility from pratfalling despite not floor-teching (which kills a lot of combo potential for worse characters)
Melee doesn't have prat falling, that's the real name for tripping so... huh? Melee doesn't have tripping.
-Horizontal-trajectory sweetspots tending to be ludicrously powerful
I'm assuming you're talking about moves that send sideways powerfully when sweetspotted? Most of them work the same way in P:M, how is this an issue in melee? Also don't you DI? Unless you've a fast faller, DI should get your trajectory looking less horizontal and more diagonal on things like the knee/slap.
-Shields not being as punishable as in 64
Shields were too punishable in 64.

 

[Viceversa96]

Crouch canceling stops some moves from being op, when a move is cc'able your opponent cant just throw it out they have to space it as well as time it, and it will sometimes force them to do a different move altogether. I feel if your using a cc'able move to a grounded opponent at low percents then you do need to be punished

Oh ok I get it. Thanks

 

[UberMario]

Melee doesn't have prat falling, that's the real name for tripping so... huh? Melee doesn't have tripping.

I was referring to when you land from a vertical hit and land either face up or face down. Melee called it pratfalling or faceplanting (depending on if face up or down, respectively) on the bonuses screen.

I'm assuming you're talking about moves that send sideways powerfully when sweetspotted? Most of them work the same way in P:M, how is this an issue in melee? Also don't you DI? Unless you've a fast faller, DI should get your trajectory looking less horizontal and more diagonal on things like the knee/slap.

Yes, I DI, but I feel that they deal an absurd amount of knockback for the little effort that they actually require to execute (i.e knee). This isn't as noticeable in 1-v-1 but is very apparent in team gameplay. When I've played Project M and Melee back-to-back, it felt like the knee, slap and Zelda's aerials in particular had far less kill potential in P.M. (in a good way) than the same attacks in Melee. (Perhaps that's just a placebo from me favoring Project M)

Shields were too punishable in 64.

That's actually how I like them. lol

 

[Viceversa96]

Spacies

Sent from the Book of Eli

Spacies aren't broken in Melee or P:M damn it. They aren't vBrawl MK.
And guys. I'm talking about mechanics not characters -_____-.

 

[Roche_CL]

Some chars having free kill potential after a grab in not so high % no matter what DI you did (Like sheik did, Falcon with lots of chars, DK)
For some chars like ICs, I understood that was their game, and grabing wasn't that easy since they had little range and where slippery n stuff. Also DK was kinda mid-low tier so it didn't matter xd.

I am a Marth main and whenever i was in 80-100% against falcon, Upthrow -> knee, against sheik in 120%, dthrow -> anything

 

[DrinkingFood]

Pretending that characters having reliable kill combos dulls down the game is a silly way to think of it. Half the game is about how you get that first grab or hit, not just how you convert it.

 

[Vashimus]

Spacies aren't broken in Melee or P:M damn it. They aren't vBrawl MK.
And guys. I'm talking about mechanics not characters -_____-.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Spikes. Seriously, why is it ok for Falco to just throw out a Dair and at any point launch you downwards in such a stupid fashion? Why don't we just have meteors instead of spikes? I don't think I've ever heard a good argument as to why spikes exist yet. And it is more so a why do certain characters have spikes when they probably should be meteors kinda thing.

 

[Viceversa96]

Spikes. Seriously, why is it ok for Falco to just throw out a Dair and at any point launch you downwards in such a stupid fashion? Why don't we just have meteors instead of spikes? I don't think I've ever heard a good argument as to why spikes exist yet. And it is more so a why do certain characters have spikes when they probably should be meteors kinda thing.

I agree

 

[Vashimus]

You want it so when Falco starts pillaring you and hits you with dair, you can meteor cancel right out and punish him? The PMBR is not THAT evil. And Marth's dair would lose a ton of its effectiveness if it wasn't a spike.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Falco's starting to pillar you and then he hits you with dair, and you meteor cancel right out and punish him. The PMBR is not THAt evil to do that to Falco. And Marth's dair would lose a ton of its effectiveness if it wasn't a spike.

Falco, like every other character who lands an on-stage meteor, could easily follow up the grounded tech chase with a multitude of things. I don't think it'd be any worse for him at all, really.

 

[Yobolight]

The biggest problem with Melee, and the reason that Project M exists today is that Donkey Kong wasn't Strong enough.

 

[Vashimus]

Strong Baaaaaaaaad, your crazy ex is back.

 

[Ogopogo]

-Lack of map designs that are unique and simultaneously fun in both competitive and casual play (the 5 neutral stages in Melee are basically a flat stage and four subtle variations of Battlefield, this was one of the few things Brawl did right imo in terms of gameplay)

yes EXACTLY

 

[Viceversa96]

yes EXACTLY

I love all of those stages. Except FoD that stage can suck a ****.

 

[HyperrCrow]

Strong Baaaaaaaaad, your crazy ex is back.

LMFAO I just shed tears

 

[Rizner]

I always found these things irreconcilably awful about vMelee:

-More than half of the cast being useless against the top 8 characters, even when playing casually *looks at Kirby*

WOAH
I like the fact that half the cast in Melee was useless against the top 8 characters -- namely useless against Kirby. Kirby da best. (but yeah, dat kirby moveset is so bad)

 

[Roche_CL]

Pretending that characters having reliable kill combos dulls down the game is a silly way to think of it. Half the game is about how you get that first grab or hit, not just how you convert it.

I know that, but you are talking in a Top Tier enviorment. Getting first grab as marth, fox, c.falcon maybe.
But what about that poor pikachu that was grabbed by sheik, oh? infinite Chaingrab! And sure Sheik's grab is reaaaally easy to avoid, but well chaingrabbing is another thing... (and please don't bring pikachu's axe into the discussion)

The point that I tried to made is... some throws should be more DIable, like puffs Uthrow, does it combo with rest? yes it does if the opponent don't DI correctly, so it leaves the option for counterplay.
Fox Uthrow, does it combo? most of the times, but you can SDI Uair, and DI to his back makes it harder for him to get a hit, so there is counterplay in his throws -> hit.

If you were grabbed by sheik you were gone.
What makes this game so fun is that you can always change the course of things, doing correct combo DI, teching and not being predictable.
All those things you had to learn to become better, to counterplay.
I couldn't never learn a way to avoid Fair after a Dthrow from sheik. I could try and not be grabbed but sometimes its just inevitable.

Well at least that's my point of view.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I know that, but you are talking in a Top Tier enviorment. Getting first grab as marth, fox, c.falcon maybe.
But what about that poor pikachu that was grabbed by sheik, oh? infinite Chaingrab! And sure Sheik's grab is reaaaally easy to avoid, but well chaingrabbing is another thing... (and please don't bring pikachu's axe into the discussion)

The point that I tried to made is... some throws should be more DIable, like puffs Uthrow, does it combo with rest? yes it does if the opponent don't DI correctly, so it leaves the option for counterplay.
Fox Uthrow, does it combo? most of the times, but you can SDI Uair, and DI to his back makes it harder for him to get a hit, so there is counterplay in his throws -> hit.

If you were grabbed by sheik you were gone.
What makes this game so fun is that you can always change the course of things, doing correct combo DI, teching and not being predictable.
All those things you had to learn to become better, to counterplay.
I couldn't never learn a way to avoid Fair after a Dthrow from sheik. I could try and not be grabbed but sometimes its just inevitable.

Well at least that's my point of view.

Well in this case it's an issue of character balance and not really game mechanics or game design.
But I still have to say that getting grabbed shouldn't be where the issue begins. The opponent first has to do the work of landing a grab. In Melee, sure, most characters didn't have the tools to compete with sheik's neutral game, but that's not necessarily case in P:M. She's still an extreme example though, extreme to the point of deserving the adjustment she got in P:M, but pretending this is an overall issue with melee is kinda silly when the overall issue was actually just character balance.

There were definitely some characters with very sillily (adverb form for silly) designed neutral games. Spacies and jiggs for the most part.

 

[| Kailex |]

Melee is not casual enough.
#FreePMSocial

 

[GP&B]

Spikes on Falco and Marth's Dair make sense because of the tremendous amount of endlag they have; it makes them dangerous for overextended edgeguarding purposes as you can lose stocks very easily using them. The thing that makes (Non-PAL) Falco's Dair stupid is being a spike for the entire duration while Marth has to deal with no hitbox for a long ass time for the rest of the move.

 

[Kix]

I think that the PMBR should experiment with CC and give it a frame or two extra hitstun or something. It feels kind of dumb right now but what do I know. Either way I think there would be more thought to it this way.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

- Lack of playable Wario/KingDedede/Pit
- No Diddy Kong appearance in the game at ALL (not even a trophy)
- Some of the characters were grossly underpowered. Pichu made sense, since it was the joke character. Mewtwo, Bowser, Ness, and many others on the other hand... should have been way better. And don't even get me started on Kirby-- who looked and played like he was flabby and sick.

 

[JRC LSS]

-Ledge occupancy
-Phantom hits
-Spikes
-Ganon being a CF clone
-L-canceling

I don't foresee these changing much in PM, nor do I really care, but they probably shouldn't have been in there in the first place.

 

[Kroboats]

Not being able to turn off tap to jump always sort of irked me.

 

[Saito]

what are some BAD things you want removed from PM

Razor Leaf.
Naryu's love.

what are some BAD mechanics you want removed from Melee?

Just the "Rolling while on the edge counts you as still being on the edge"

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Not being able to turn off tap to jump always sort of irked me.

This, man, is because most of my friends who didn't play competitively had to do a jump and land before being able to do an up tilt. It's not really that hard to work around, but it always bothered me and my friends.