The 7/9 Starter System

[fkacyan]

Doesn't proving to me that YI can also be used for a Diddy fortress just further re-enforce the fact that these counter-neutrals be added?

As for sliding under the stage, it's the same idea, on the other side. The whole thing be be easily dealt with by jumping towards the center.



Like I have mentioned before, would it be wrong to replace "maneuverable recoveries" with "projectiles", and the statement still holds true for FD? The double standard seems a little strange to me, is all.

I do appreciate the diagram on YI though. :D

Diddy would just use his three strikes on the two added neutrals and probably Lylat.

I mean, I guess you could add them. I just will never expect to see them used.

 

[Raziek]

Diddy would just use his three strikes on the two added neutrals and probably Lylat.

I mean, I guess you could add them. I just will never expect to see them used.

Well, at the least that would let the other character pick the neutral of their choice. X_X

I'm going to host a small tourney to gather some data, so I'll be sure to post the results here.

 

[Conti]

Lol YI is one of diddy's worst neutrals... 4thworse imo its extremely easy to gimp him there just throwing it out there... but tbh the 7 strike system sounds solid... who knows try it out

 

[fkacyan]

Lol YI is one of diddy's worst neutrals... 4thworse imo its extremely easy to gimp him there just throwing it out there... but tbh the 7 strike system sounds solid... who knows try it out

I trust my own theory and experience more than your testimonial.

 

[DMG]

There's nothing wrong with having 7-9 starter stages, granted if you have a good list of stages to begin with.

I find Delfino to be more of a CP than Castle Siege or Frigate. Frigate certainly is not as "bad" as Delfino. Castle Siege is arguable, Delfino has more aspects to watch out for though clearly.

 

[Dastrn]

You could try Dastrn's Stage Striking System:
There's 1 stage list.
there are no counterpicks
You strike down from your total stagelist until theres either 3 stages left (5 for championship sets) or 4(6) if you have even number of stages. Then play first game on either the stage highest on the list, or random select from those. Loser picks the next stage from the remaining stages. Same for game 3(4+5).

No more ridiculous swings. MKs can't play on rainbow cruise any more. Diddy can't play on FD anymore. You end up with really good sets on stages that work for both players.

You can either double blind every game for characters, or else let loser pick character after winner like 2d fighters. Personally, I like double blinding each game.

 

[Ol-Jeb]

I really like the 7/9 system. It makes a lot of sense. Personally I love opheon (my friends hate it xD) and I do like to play on Halberd even if the claw usually nails my ADHD ***.

Question: What are your thoughts on Distant Planet? I read a discussion on the stage board about it about a week ago and the argument to include it as a regular counterpick instead of a cp/ban made a lot of sense.

 

[fkacyan]

I really like the 7/9 system. It makes a lot of sense. Personally I love opheon (my friends hate it xD) and I do like to play on Halberd even if the claw usually nails my ADHD ***.

Question: What are your thoughts on Distant Planet? I read a discussion on the stage board about it about a week ago and the argument to include it as a regular counterpick instead of a cp/ban made a lot of sense.

Within the post discussing it the person admitted it was broken for their character.

There is still a light circle, there is still a walkoff.

 

[Raziek]

I like it as a CP, and it will be one in my stagelist. I'm the only one who ever uses it anyway.

Dastrn, that's an interesting idea, but then the system becomes quite unwieldy when you have to strike down the whole stagelist and time is a factor. Not to mention, that also seems like it would almost always end up on a CP stage, just not a really ridiculous one.

 

[fkacyan]

I like it as a CP, and it will be one in my stagelist. I'm the only one who ever uses it anyway.

Dastrn, that's an interesting idea, but then the system becomes quite unwieldy when you have to strike down the whole stagelist and time is a factor. Not to mention, that also seems like it would almost always end up on a CP stage, just not a really ridiculous one.

This actually opens up an interesting possibility in stage theory, actually.

What if the most neutral stages for some matchups are not actually the predefined neutrals we have?

 

[Raziek]

That could be entirely possible, but would be quite difficult to determine. We don't even have empirical match-up data, let alone factoring stages in. At that point, it becomes a matter of opinion, which is all our match-up data is based on anyway.

 

[fkacyan]

That could be entirely possible, but would be quite difficult to determine. We don't even have empirical match-up data, let alone factoring stages in. At that point, it becomes a matter of opinion, which is all our match-up data is based on anyway.

I don't deny the difficulty of it, I'm just stating a possibility.

 

[Steeler]

I don't deny the difficulty of it, I'm just stating a possibility.

it is probably the case in plenty of matchups.

anyway dastrn's process is excellent and the future of stage selection imo.

 

[Raziek]

it is probably the case in plenty of matchups.

anyway dastrn's process is excellent and the future of stage selection imo.

I don't know for sure about that.....

It would heavily favor character with few bad stages, even moreso than the current means of doing things. If you're working with a larger stage-list, all a MK player would have to do is ban the neutrals, and it's pretty much be an instant win. (Like I said, he breaks the system.)

It's a good potential idea, but it's weighted down by the time it would take per match, and the fact that it is still heavily skewed towards characters who perform well on MANY stages.

The 7-system at least provides a closer balance between true neutrals and cp-neutrals, without going overboard. That said, if MK gets banned, then Dastrn's system would be interesting. Characters like Diddy, Snake, IC's (Those who do well on the neutrals) would be at a much larger disadvantage than otherwise.....

If I had a potential stage list from Dastrn on which we could base some thoughts, that would be good, but as it stands, it is a difficult concept to reason with in a broad scope.

 

[fkacyan]

I don't know for sure about that.....

It would heavily favor character with few bad stages, even moreso than the current means of doing things. If you're working with a larger stage-list, all a MK player would have to do is ban the neutrals, and it's pretty much be an instant win. (Like I said, he breaks the system.)

It's a good potential idea, but it's weighted down by the time it would take per match, and the fact that it is still heavily skewed towards characters who perform well on MANY stages.

The 7-system at least provides a closer balance between true neutrals and cp-neutrals, without going overboard. That said, if MK gets banned, then Dastrn's system would be interesting. Characters like Diddy, Snake, IC's (Those who do well on the neutrals) would be at a much larger disadvantage than otherwise.....

If I had a potential stage list from Dastrn on which we could base some thoughts, that would be good, but as it stands, it is a difficult concept to reason with in a broad scope.

Those characters really only do poorly on non-neutrals because of MK and their own character counters, lol.

 

[Raziek]

Those characters really only do poorly on non-neutrals because of MK and their own character counters, lol.

I suppose this is true.

I'd be interested in seeing a stage list, in any case.

 

[Dastrn]

Dastrn, that's an interesting idea, but then the system becomes quite unwieldy when you have to strike down the whole stagelist and time is a factor. Not to mention, that also seems like it would almost always end up on a CP stage, just not a really ridiculous one.

The system was used successfully at a tournament this weekend run by an SBR member. Results were extremely positive. It sounds like the most popular stages used were Delfino and Castle Siege, and a lot of Pictochat/Distant Planet as well.

This actually opens up an interesting possibility in stage theory, actually.

What if the most neutral stages for some matchups are not actually the predefined neutrals we have?

This is precisely the idea. Each matchup has it's own set of neutrals, as determined by the players playing in that immediate matchup. It's infinitely more flexible than the current system.

anyway dastrn's process is excellent and the future of stage selection imo.

Thanks! Please suggest it to your local TOs. I'll be posting a thread describing the process in detail within a week. Keep your eyese peeled in tactical discussion.

I suppose this is true.

I'd be interested in seeing a stage list, in any case.

Battlefield
Halberd
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Pokémon Stadium
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Port Town Aero Dive
Pictochat
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise
Green Greens

Pick a matchup you are familiar with, and imagine how each player would strike for that matchup. After each player uses 5 strikes, you'll have 6 stages left. Remove 1 from the overall list before hand if you prefer to just end up on 5 stages, and play each one, with the loser CP'ing from the remaining stages. I like striking down to the number of stages required for the set +1, and then letting people CP from those 4(6 in championships) and one of them doesn't get played after all. But having the TO remove any 1 stage from this list (port town/norfair/green greens...whichever they like the least...) and just playing all 3 stages works just as well.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

....You had PTAD, but not Pirate Ship?

*is now very, very confused*

 

[vVv Rapture]

I'm liking the idea of full striking a full stage list. That would be pretty interesting and certainly raises a lot of the limitations we have now. Especially with it being more strategic because of the new options.

 

[TheMike]

Stater list of the Order of Smash organization; São Paulo, Brazil:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi’s Island
Castle Siege
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 1
Delphino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon

Counter Pick list:

Brinstar
Jungle Japes
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pókemon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Distant Planet
Luigi’s Mansion
Norfair


The players can either strike 3 stages of the first match, but those stages can be chosen on the other matches of the set, or strike only one stage of the whole set.

 

[Raziek]

The system was used successfully at a tournament this weekend run by an SBR member. Results were extremely positive. It sounds like the most popular stages used were Delfino and Castle Siege, and a lot of Pictochat/Distant Planet as well.


This is precisely the idea. Each matchup has it's own set of neutrals, as determined by the players playing in that immediate matchup. It's infinitely more flexible than the current system.


Thanks! Please suggest it to your local TOs. I'll be posting a thread describing the process in detail within a week. Keep your eyese peeled in tactical discussion.



Battlefield
Halberd
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Pokémon Stadium
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Port Town Aero Dive
Pictochat
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise
Green Greens

Pick a matchup you are familiar with, and imagine how each player would strike for that matchup. After each player uses 5 strikes, you'll have 6 stages left. Remove 1 from the overall list before hand if you prefer to just end up on 5 stages, and play each one, with the loser CP'ing from the remaining stages. I like striking down to the number of stages required for the set +1, and then letting people CP from those 4(6 in championships) and one of them doesn't get played after all. But having the TO remove any 1 stage from this list (port town/norfair/green greens...whichever they like the least...) and just playing all 3 stages works just as well.

I like the idea as a means of picking the first stage..... but to me, it feels like it sucks the power right out of counter-picking. If the stages you can choose from are ones your opponent doesn't mind going to, doesn't that somewhat defeat the point?

Counter-picking should be an advantage for the player who does so skillfully. Players like myself put a lot of work into being fluent on all stages, and being able to take players to stages they aren't comfortable on is something that can, and should be exploited, for the purposes of the counter-pick.

For the first stage, striking the whole list would probably work nicely. However, I would personally disagree with removing a player's ability to play their favorite stage. I'll use myself as an example here.

I'm notorious for being extremely skilled on Norfair. I've only ever lost a match once on it, to someone vastly superior in skill to me. Because of this, word gets around, and most people ban Norfair against me. To counter-act this, and maintain a competitive edge in counter-picking, I learned other, equally difficult to adapt to, stages. These include things like Distant Planet, Port Town Aero Dive, Jungle Japes, and a variety of other stages that are strong against certain characters.

Because of this, my opponent cannot keep me from taking them SOMEWHERE that I have the advantage, which in my opinion, is the purpose of a counter-pick. Forcing people to work under pressure, in uncertain situations. If I can't pick a stage that does that, doesn't that defeat its purpose?

 

[jivegamer]

Look at the MLG rules. They have 9 starters!!!

 

[Raziek]

I saw and was pleased, though quite confused that they chose Delfino, but then again, MLG did a LOT of confusing things with this ruleset. Was there SBR-B collaboration? Either way, things are going to be VEEEEEEERY interesting at MLG Orlando.