Smash 3DS The 3DS, Customization, And Tournaments

[cnkern]

I don't see the point of running custom tournaments if a major part of customisation is omitted.
Full customisation options should be allowed to maximise differentiation from standard tournaments.

I feel like it will mess with the base characters too much, customization on the other hand will just changed specials so they will still feel like the base character and not someone else.

 

[Malex]

I think it should go
To start
1.character
2.customization
3.stage
Then
1.customization
2.stage

No equipment
No items
All characters legal (unless broken)
All customization legal (unless broken)

Edit: players can play whoever throughout the tourney but can't change mid-match

Why change the format and no longer allow players to change characters? Every fighting game that I have ever played or watched being played has allowed players (at least the loser) the option of changing his character(s).

I don't see the point of running custom tournaments if a major part of customisation is omitted.
Full customisation options should be allowed to maximise differentiation from standard tournaments.

I'm not sure equipment tournaments are going to make it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see, I expect it will be a similar situation to item tournaments. Where there appears to be just a lack of interest.

The biggest difference between custom moves and equipment is that there is a small number of custom moves (12 each). Who knows how many pieces of equipment there are? There are equipments of varying strength. This is more of a logistical issue on the Wii U, so maybe on the 3DS it will be possible, we'll just have to wait and see. I don't expect it to be popular, however.

 

[cnkern]

Why change the format and no longer allow players to change characters? Every fighting game that I have ever played or watched being played has allowed players (at least the loser) the option of changing his character(s).




I'm not sure equipment tournaments are going to make it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see, I expect it will be a similar situation to item tournaments. Where there appears to be just a lack of interest.

The biggest difference between custom moves and equipment is that there is a small number of custom moves (12 each). Who knows how many pieces of equipment there are? There are equipments of varying strength. This is more of a logistical issue on the Wii U, so maybe on the 3DS it will be possible, we'll just have to wait and see. I don't expect it to be popular, however.

That was just a template though and can be changed I am all for changing characters mid-match (for loser not winner)
Edit:I edit to much :?

 

[LiteralGrill]

I don't see the point of running custom tournaments if a major part of customisation is omitted.
Full customisation options should be allowed to maximise differentiation from standard tournaments.

The issue there really is logistics. Combining every single new special we have PLUS stat modifiers that can have the same name but different stats at random is going to be an issue if something turns out broken. It's going to be seriously hard to regulate equipment, so it may need a simple ban to help. I HATE having to do something like a ban just for a logistical reason, but it may be the case. I'm willing to test it and try it out though if there is interest.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

The issue there really is logistics. Combining every single new special we have PLUS stat modifiers that can have the same name but different stats at random is going to be an issue if something turns out broken. It's going to be seriously hard to regulate equipment, so it may need a simple ban to help. I HATE having to do something like a ban just for a logistical reason, but it may be the case. I'm willing to test it and try it out though if there is interest.

To me, it seems like equipment is an important part of customisation, and the stat variations could provide enormous depth to the metagame. It's way to early assess logistical viability, and waaay too early to assume people won't find it interesting.

We should consider it for now, and address it as and when it becomes a problem. That's the right way to go about it.

 

[LiteralGrill]

To me, it seems like equipment is an important part of customisation, and the stat variations could provide enormous depth to the metagame. It's way to early assess logistical viability, and waaay too early to assume people won't find it interesting.

We should consider it for now, and address it as and when it becomes a problem. That's the right way to go about it.

I agree with the idea to keep things in until they are proven an issue, just don't be surprised if they become an issue rather early. I have a funny feeling people will lump these with regular items in the idea that they just will remove them without testing. I'm willing to try anything, the community at large may not be as thoughtful.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

I agree with the idea to keep things in until they are proven an issue, just don't be surprised if they become an issue rather early. I have a funny feeling people will lump these with regular items in the idea that they just will remove them without testing. I'm willing to try anything, the community at large may not be as thoughtful.

It looks to me like they come as a set with customisations. You choose your character, select their moves and equipment, and save that set-up. There is nothing immediately apparent that would warrant their exclusion.

Custom character battles should be about everything listed here:
http://www.smashbros.com/en-uk/howto/entry2.html

I feel like this is a starting point that should be easy enough to get on board with.

 

[Number1MinunFan]

I think its fine to allow full customization as people will have to figure out which customization to use and what there opponents will be and how they will use them for a better challenge, even with Mii Fighters and Palutena

 

[Malex]

It looks to me like they come as a set with customisations. You choose your character, select their moves and equipment, and save that set-up. There is nothing immediately apparent that would warrant their exclusion.

Custom character battles should be about everything listed here:
http://www.smashbros.com/en-uk/howto/entry2.html

I feel like this is a starting point that should be easy enough to get on board with.

The logistical issues in question have to do with the availability of equipment on each console. I highly suspect that it will not be feasible on the Wii U.

Fortunately for the 3DS, that is not an issue. I only have a small problem with them, and that is they are not a zero-sum item. There are drawbacks to equipping them, sure, but you could equip things like....

+180 Power, -90 Speed
+180 Speed, -90 Power

What exactly does this add to the game? The stats on them are arbitrary, each time you get them they will have different stats. Players will be forced to farm equipment with the best stats to remain competitive.

My mario has the two equipment listed above, your Mario has...

+90 power, -45 speed
+90 speed, -45 power


I am literally playing a better character, creating what I would consider to be a slightly unfair advantage in my favor. Yes, I know, I've heard skill vs. gear for years while playing MMOs, but the fact of the matter is those stats will make a difference. If they didn't make a difference, what was the point of including them at all?

This would be similar to getting a competitive pokemon team in older games without cheats.

You have to:
Capture your desired pokemon.
Check it's stats, if it doesn't have the correct starting stats, you have to get a new one. (Six stats, values range from 0-31, I believe.)
Check its nature, if it doesn't have the correct nature, you have to get a new one. (25 natures)
EV train it (This involves only letting your pokemon killing certain pokemon until you've maxed out your desired values, takes hundreds of kills)
After that, you can train it to lvl 100. It takes months to get a competitive pokemon team without using exploits.

I don't expect the equipment from smash to be this involved, I'm just illustrating the point that if it is not moderately easy to obtain the best equipment in the game, it will probably not be viable for 3DS.

 

[ToastMiller]

MvC3 has 48 characters. You get a team of three and each character has the option of three assists. 144 x 141 x 138 = 2,801,952 possible combinations. Their players aren't demanding transparency in the brackets.

The 4,000 possible combinations is honestly not that big of a deal. Forcing players to have preset roster is ridiculous.
Issues:
Why arbitrarily select one number over another? Why 3 instead of 5? Why 5 instead if 7? Why not just force a single character?
How do you enforce it? How do you distinguish between rostered characters and not rostered characters? What if I want two Mario options? I'd have to have more than one name, increasing in the difficulty of tracking rostered characters.
Unneeded increase in difficulty of logistics. Players will have to preregister their custom rosters. Staff will need to spend time investigating claims of cheating.
Reduced options for character selection. Most of the time, limiting options is not a good thing.

Once again, the simplest answer is the best.
Allow a player to alter custom moves anytime they could choose a character or ban everything.

1. Aren't there tournament that force you to choose between a few characters?

2. If the characters you can select are only a few, like 3 or 4 then you can inforce the rules because it's easy to tell if a SSSS mario uses a Fast neut special, the point of the tags are for inforcing as well as for quick identification by the opponent.

3. you can determine between rostered characters and non rostered characters by their tags. an SSSS mario cannot use a Fast special so it can be determined he is cheating by referencing the roster sheet.

4.yes you could have more rostered characters of the same character, but the player would be/ could be forced to tell their opponents what tag they are choosing from, then the TO or whoever else is there would just cross-reference their move-set with the roster list.

5. It's not limiting customization it's allowing customization to be used in a way that doesn't affect play because nobody is not going to know what kind of moveset they are up against. just like any other normal smash brothers game.

 

[Malex]

1. Aren't there tournament that force you to choose between a few characters?

From the games I have played and have watched, changing characters has been allowed. I have never personally seen a limitation on player selection outside of bans.

2. If the characters you can select are only a few, like 3 or 4 then you can inforce the rules because it's easy to tell if a SSSS mario uses a Fast neut special, the point of the tags are for inforcing as well as for quick identification by the opponent.

What is the reason behind choosing 3 or 4 over 4 or 5? or 5 or 6? Which arbitrary number have you selected that is the best?

3. you can determine between rostered characters and non rostered characters by their tags. an SSSS mario cannot use a Fast special so it can be determined he is cheating by referencing the roster sheet.

So, the rostered characters are forced custom and non rostered characters are the standard character? You could choose anyone, but if you want a custom you have to choose between the magic number you randomly picked of rostered characters? So, each player would have to know the content of the roster for each other player? (This is yes, because the player would have to be able to distinguish between legal and illegal picks to be able to call a staff member over)

4.yes you could have more rostered characters of the same character, but the player would be/ could be forced to tell their opponents what tag they are choosing from, then the TO or whoever else is there would just cross-reference their move-set with the roster list.

What if I wanted to change from SSSS Mario to standard mario? Does standard mario take up a roster? I don't understand the distinction between "standard" mario and "custom" mario, in reference to a custom tournament.

5. It's not limiting customization it's allowing customization to be used in a way that doesn't affect play because nobody is not going to know what kind of moveset they are up against. just like any other normal smash brothers game.

Why do people keep acting like custom moves are super secret ko moves? You know they have 12 options.That's not a lot of hidden information to care about. Just like other games that have hidden information, there will be the "competitive standard" that you expect until the opponent does something different. Being cautious, if it is required, while you wait out making your assessment for 12 moves in ssb is NOT that big of a deal. Considering the nature of the game, you will probably see all 4 chosen specials in the first stock.

 

[Venks]

My smash group all plan on allowing everything, but items for tournaments. Nothing is gonna get banned unless it's proven to be broken. And are we sure that we can alter our attack, speed, and defense? I thought that was only possible via Smash Run where you start at normal and get higher stats via collecting?

I was under the assumption that stat raising and leveling up was for Amiibos. While custom moves are for both players and Amiibos?

amiibo Lv 50 with the option to Feed Equipment. Did I miss something?

 

[Malex]

My smash group all plan on allowing everything, but items for tournaments. Nothing is gonna get banned unless it's proven to be broken. And are we sure that we can alter our attack, speed, and defense? I thought that was only possible via Smash Run where you start at normal and get higher stats via collecting?

I was under the assumption that stat raising and leveling up was for Amiibos. While custom moves are for both players and Amiibos?

amiibo Lv 50 with the option to Feed Equipment. Did I miss something?

According to the character creation section of the website: http://www.smashbros.com/us/howto/entry2.html

The items you equip will have random stats (and possibly random effects, no proof yet either way). I'm ok with it all, until something is established as too OP or there are logistical problems.

Can't wait to rock my Easy Explosive power shields.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

My smash group all plan on allowing everything, but items for tournaments. Nothing is gonna get banned unless it's proven to be broken. And are we sure that we can alter our attack, speed, and defense? I thought that was only possible via Smash Run where you start at normal and get higher stats via collecting?

I was under the assumption that stat raising and leveling up was for Amiibos. While custom moves are for both players and Amiibos?

amiibo Lv 50 with the option to Feed Equipment. Did I miss something?

I think you "feed" equipment to Amiibos to power them up permanently, losing the equipment in the process. Customised characters can wear three pieces of equipment to alter their stats.

You can wear up to three pieces of equipment at a time. Equipment categories are Attack, Defence and Speed items. You can wear up to three pieces of equipment at a time. Equipment categories are Attack, Defence and Speed items.

 

[ToastMiller]

From the games I have played and have watched, changing characters has been allowed. I have never personally seen a limitation on player selection outside of bans.


What is the reason behind choosing 3 or 4 over 4 or 5? or 5 or 6? Which arbitrary number have you selected that is the best?


So, the rostered characters are forced custom and non rostered characters are the standard character? You could choose anyone, but if you want a custom you have to choose between the magic number you randomly picked of rostered characters? So, each player would have to know the content of the roster for each other player? (This is yes, because the player would have to be able to distinguish between legal and illegal picks to be able to call a staff member over)


What if I wanted to change from SSSS Mario to standard mario? Does standard mario take up a roster? I don't understand the distinction between "standard" mario and "custom" mario, in reference to a custom tournament.


Why do people keep acting like custom moves are super secret ko moves? You know they have 12 options.That's not a lot of hidden information to care about. Just like other games that have hidden information, there will be the "competitive standard" that you expect until the opponent does something different. Being cautious, if it is required, while you wait out making your assessment for 12 moves in ssb is NOT that big of a deal. Considering the nature of the game, you will probably see all 4 chosen specials in the first stock.

1. there isn't a reason, a good number would have to be decided

2. you pick between characters including unaltered specials, you could roster a NNNN mario. Yes it would take up a roster slot.
you would have a max of X characters to select from, including whatever sets of custom character be you want all NNNN characters or all custom characters or a mixture between both. And players would need to be able to recognize the different special moves in order to call over a staff member.

3. I think mostly because that's what everyone will do. Whether it's right or wrong, the element of surprise in the form of the other characters move sets will probably sound scary to tournament players. I personally won't be upset if we get full reign of special moves or they get banned completely. I thought this system, that allows for special moves AND a certainty of the other players move set, would be a good compromise though.

 

[Venks]

According to the character creation section of the website: http://www.smashbros.com/us/howto/entry2.html

The items you equip will have random stats (and possibly random effects, no proof yet either way). I'm ok with it all, until something is established as too OP or there are logistical problems.

Can't wait to rock my Easy Explosive power shields.

I think you "feed" equipment to Amiibos to power them up permanently, losing the equipment in the process. Customised characters can wear three pieces of equipment to alter their stats.

Ohhhh. I see. So you can equip up to three pieces of gear? That's pretty cool. I imagine the light weight shoes would make Little Mac near uncontrollable with how fast he already is, but the same gear could be used to make Link pretty quick.

I'm curious how bizarre these equipment pieces will be, but I'm still up for using them at first. I'd like to explore all of the game's content and try it out before asking for bans. Especially since this can be a way to differentiate 3DS and Wii U tournaments.

And on the comment that people have to grind to get the best gear, meh it's the same thing as Pokemon. I just came from Pokemon Nationals and you'll be pretty hard pressed to find a player that has less then 30 in-game hours of preparation for just the one tournament.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

I think we leave custom movesets alone until it become apparent that they just won't work because they either, kill the pace of tournaments or grant unfair advantages or the randomness proves to be too much.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

Ohhhh. I see. So you can equip up to three pieces of gear? That's pretty cool. I imagine the light weight shoes would make Little Mac near uncontrollable with how fast he already is, but the same gear could be used to make Link pretty quick.

I'm curious how bizarre these equipment pieces will be, but I'm still up for using them at first. I'd like to explore all of the game's content and try it out before asking for bans. Especially since this can be a way to differentiate 3DS and Wii U tournaments.

And on the comment that people have to grind to get the best gear, meh it's the same thing as Pokemon. I just came from Pokemon Nationals and you'll be pretty hard pressed to find a player that has less then 30 in-game hours of preparation for just the one tournament.

The only thing that bothers me about equipment is that you can balance it to get a flat increase overall, and that's going to be more if you grind for the better pieces. Still, it might be the case that giving characters certain configurations might be better (speed for Link, etc.)

Spoiler

In this picture, the ratio of the increased stat and the decreased stat is not always the same. The "Max-Power Gloves" offer a much better boost compared with the reduction than the other two. From a balancing perspective, I can't see a benefit to this degree of randomness.

EDIT: Actually, I have just realised that the gloves don't provide an additional effect. It could be that the effects are ranked, and the ratio is adjusted based on the usefulness of the additional effect.

So, the ratios are:
Gloves - 1:3.58
Overalls - 1:3.14
Shoes - 1:2.39

So the "High-Speed Dash" could be ranked better than the "Easy Split-Second Shield", which would explain why the shoes are given a worse ratio.

Further down the page, there's another example of some Max-Power Gloves that give +69 and -14, a ratio of 1:4.9. It's possible the ratio also scales with the boost. The higher the boost, the worse the ratio. Obviously, there isn't enough information to make a conclusion, but I'm betting there's an in-built balancing factor.

 

[Malex]

1. there isn't a reason, a good number would have to be decided

You should probably have one. You are limiting the meta to a rock-paper-scissors match. Everyone will have to pick the best character. The counter to the best character. and the counter to the counter to the best character. Why do we have to limit the players to preselecting a roster? Which you have no reason for creating?

2. you pick between characters including unaltered specials, you could roster a NNNN mario. Yes it would take up a roster slot.
you would have a max of X characters to select from, including whatever sets of custom character be you want all NNNN characters or all custom characters or a mixture between both. And players would need to be able to recognize the different special moves in order to call over a staff member.

So, you are only allowed to have X number of characters that you can play at all. How is this a good thing? Now, I get to remember all of the moves and how to handle all of them AND memorize all my enemies rosters to ensure they aren't cheating. I suppose you could give everyone a nametag with their roster on it.

3. I think mostly because that's what everyone will do. Whether it's right or wrong, the element of surprise in the form of the other characters move sets will probably sound scary to tournament players. I personally won't be upset if we get full reign of special moves or they get banned completely. I thought this system, that allows for special moves AND a certainty of the other players move set, would be a good compromise though.

The element of surprise in question is very small. The actual character pick is a bigger "element of surprise" than which custom moves they will have equipped.

Spoiler

You may argue here that there are 81 possibilities, but let's be honest, there are 12 special moves per character. The actual combination will not be a concern, so much as figuring out which moves are equipped. (Unless a combination is super OP or a strong counter, in which case, you can probably just expect that in the first place.)

This is all in the assumption that we are playing blind customs. You could very easily just tell your opponent.. "Hey, I'm using XXXX." The only situation that this doesn't work is online play, I guess. But, I'm not even convinced we need to play transparent customs! There is zero-to-little gained from limiting the roster for a player. It will force players to play characters that are "good at beating everyone" and the counters to those characters.

Everyone will be forced to play Metaknight, because he easily beats most of the cast.
Everyone will be forced to play Pikachu, because he isn't easily defeated by Metaknight.
Everyone will be forced to play a Pikachu counter, because you can't play Metaknight against him.


Oh boy, what a good set up.

Ohhhh. I see. So you can equip up to three pieces of gear? That's pretty cool. I imagine the light weight shoes would make Little Mac near uncontrollable with how fast he already is, but the same gear could be used to make Link pretty quick.

I'm curious how bizarre these equipment pieces will be, but I'm still up for using them at first. I'd like to explore all of the game's content and try it out before asking for bans. Especially since this can be a way to differentiate 3DS and Wii U tournaments.

And on the comment that people have to grind to get the best gear, meh it's the same thing as Pokemon. I just came from Pokemon Nationals and you'll be pretty hard pressed to find a player that has less then 30 in-game hours of preparation for just the one tournament.

Yeah, I'm familiar with grinding to have the best odds, but I am not a fan. The harder it is to get all that stuff, the bigger impact it has on the competitive scene. Why would someone who has only played a few weeks and has +45 to all stats bother entering when someone who played for a few months has +200 to all stats? Will people care? Maybe. Until more information is released, I'm currently neutral. It may be very easy to get strong equipment. Maybe there will be a shop that you can save your coins to buy something specific so you don't have to wait to pick it up in Smash Run. We just don't know enough right now, and while I may not like the implications that arise from it, I understand that it may make the game better competitively. As long as it isn't too strong or a logistics problem, I don't see a problem with their inclusion.

 

[Aefice]

Perhaps the stat change is refering to smash run?

 

[Cloudx128]

I don't like the fact that we'll have to grind to get into the competitive scene for Smash 3ds. I'll probably be playing all the matches required for it just to get good at the game, and could probably adjust to different movesets.

That being said, I see the equipment being an entry barrier into the scene. It's just front loading more time a person has to put in to be able to play competitively in an already difficult genre to get into.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

I don't like the fact that we'll have to grind to get into the competitive scene for Smash 3ds. I'll probably be playing all the matches required for it just to get good at the game, and could probably adjust to different movesets.

That being said, I see the equipment being an entry barrier into the scene. It's just front loading more time a person has to put in to be able to play competitively in an already difficult genre to get into.

Yeah, but this is all conjecture; we know very little about the equipment at the moment, so it's best not to jump to any conclusions.

 

[Nstinct]

I was curious if there could even be equipment that could bring back some melee mechanics. It would would seem somewhat plausible since we've seen some that can affect dashing and others blocking. It'd also be interesting to see some equipment that changes airdodges aswell. I do not expect what this post entails, but it woud be nice to see a piece of equipment that made dash dancing easier and more useful since it's currently the useless Brawl dash dancing.

 

[Addy Who Dat]

Customization for the Smash competitive scene would be a wonderful thing for the 3ds version. It would make for some very interesting and intense mindgames, trying to customize your moveset to make it so that you may have a better matchup. This would also make for and even better spectating expierience. In a normal tournament after the characters are selected, you can see that one character may be at a distinct against another and may affect how fair the match is. With customizable movesets, you may be able to change that as a reward for winning the mind game, or make your disadvantage even worse. This is a great thing for the 3ds version because it plays a bit more towards more hardcore fans of the series (which is why most liked Melee)

 

[Super FOG]

I was thinking about this topic, and this thing came to my mind, considering that noboy knows about the customization menus:

What if the customization system would be like Mario Kart? I mean, ater selecting the character, you go to a screen to equip the custom special moves and so the players go to the stage selection. It would be more objective, more clear and, the most important, faster! Of course, this system would eliminate the item equipping that changes the character's attack, defense and speed, but it's still interesting.

 

[Wiley]

The truth is, from an average player to a pro player, Custom Moves do not feel broken. They feel like they give characters better options, yes. but not broken.

Equipment, on the other hand, just doesn't feel right. The beauty of the game in its vanilla state currently is that it looks how it acts. (cough... not Yoshi teleporting) Now I know that's not what competitive fighting is about, but as far as getting people interested in it to want to play to begin with... it's an important factor. Equipment at its most extremes makes for absurd game play that doesn't feel fitting whatsoever. Projectiles turn into nightmarish hitboxes critting for ridiculous %... and I'm talking about average pewpews. I hope and doubt it will ever have a place barring some DLC equipment packs that have "sets" that fill all slots and can't be modified to offer varied but universal game play changes... but that's also doubtful.