Smash 3DS The 3DS, Customization, And Tournaments

[Boss N]

Well we got that BIG update on Miis today, their size actually matters on how they fight. We're entering some seriously difficult territory now.

I'm starting to think if moves are going to be custom and we allow it all it will definitely need to be required to let the opponent know your customizations before the match.

Why is this bad news?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Why is this bad news?

It mostly just makes things a good bit more complex for Miis depending on how the game handles them. It's not impossible by any means to still keep them legal, especially on the 3DS, it's just going to make it so you have to learn even more matchups.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

The level of balance among the alternate moves is going to be a big factor. If there are a couple of moves that end up just being significantly better, custom tournament will be stale and predictable. If certain characters rocket through the tier list with a couple of cheap moves, tournaments will be an appalling waste of everybody's time.

If you ask me, the ideal situation would be for a subtle, yet not entirely decisive, rock-paper-scissors effect between the moves. This would inspire a level of creativity with the movesets; not knowing if choosing one move over another is guaranteed to be effective. I'd be very surprised if this were the case, though.

I'm instilled with confidence looking at Mario's fireballs, though. They've clearly been tailored to suit different play-styles. The fast fireball acts like Fox's blaster, and probably improves his ranged game quite a lot. The big, slow fireball looks like it would hit multiple times, but not travel as far; it could be good for combos and defence.

 

[Second Power]

Why is this bad news?

Moves aren't too bad. Variable weight is somewhat difficult because it makes combos awkward.

 

[Boss N]

I don't think there's going to be a problem concerning Mii's and size, given sakurai's acute attention to detail and Namco Bandai's seasoned experience making fighting games with customizable characters, I'm sure they'll reasonably balance them out, or it couldn't change anything and may purely be cosmetic.

And in terms of match ups, what ever happened to just winging it and thinking on your feet?

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

may purely be cosmetic.

The smaller ones become speed fighters and the bigger ones are more akin to power fighters.

 

[Boss N]

Haha my bad, I didn't have the chance to read his comment before rushing off to work.

I still don't see how this makes things more complicated, if anything I think it'll make everything even more interesting.
I've been noticing this on a few other threads concerning mii's but is it really necessary to try to categorize them in a tier list? IMO tier lists are actually really flimsy and don't accurately measure the true potential of a character and are more just popularity contests.

 

[Soul.]

Customization on tournaments is fine, but could the "unpredictability" of Miis make them a bit difficult? I know the normal tournaments will still be a thing for Smash 3DS, but if customization is a problem, the 3DS players could try to balance them by doing a ruleset or something. The height of Miis is a problem, as a smaller Mii can run faster and has the possibility to combo, but a large Mii could be a target for combos with their slower speed.
Of course, it's best to wait until the 3DS version is released so the 3DS scene can try out the customization and discuss about it.

 

[Boss N]

Customization on tournaments is fine, but could the "unpredictability" of Miis make them a bit difficult? I know the normal tournaments will still be a thing for Smash 3DS, but if customization is a problem, the 3DS players could try to balance them by doing a ruleset or something. The height of Miis is a problem, as a smaller Mii can run faster and has the possibility to combo, but a large Mii could be a target for combos with their slower speed.
Of course, it's best to wait until the 3DS version is released so the 3DS scene can try out the customization and discuss about it.

I don't think slower Mii's are gonna be in any disadvantage, as all the heavy characters in the game have been revamped to be a lot faster to match with the speed of the rest of the game.

 

[Soul.]

I don't think slower Mii's are gonna be in any disadvantage, as all the heavy characters in the game have been revamped to be a lot faster to match with the speed of the rest of the game.

Right, they're getting a speed buff. While their speed may have improved, they could be a target for other characters because of their height, but then comes the powerful hits from slower Miis.

 

[Boss N]

Right, they're getting a speed buff. While their speed may have improved, they could be a target for other characters because of their height, but then comes the powerful hits from slower Miis.

They're just as vulnerable as any other big character like Bowser & Rosalina, who aren't even at any disadvantage against characters like Kirby. Everyone in the game tall or short is scaled so that no matter what the opponents size they will always land a hit. Crouching is a different story but it doesn't really change gameplay. Im sure the team put a lot of thought and work to making sure everyone, including mii's are balanced.

 

[Soul.]

They're just as vulnerable as any other big character like Bowser & Rosalina, who aren't even at any disadvantage against characters like Kirby. Everyone in the game tall or short is scaled so that no matter what the opponents size they will always land a hit. Crouching is a different story but it doesn't really change gameplay. Im sure the team put a lot of thought and work to making sure everyone, including mii's are balanced.

Yeah, they are. I know they don't have any disadvantage against small characters, I think they'd win by spacing their moves and stuff. The Miis are a problem, though, because of their unpredictability. For example, someone uses a Mii Swordfighter with 4 different special moves, and the opponent uses the Mii Gunner with the standard special moves, so maybe making a ruleset for them could work without taking away their unpredictability. Who knows, maybe Miis will be left the way they are and players tell their customization before doing a match.

 

[Nstinct]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I have the impression that Mii Fighters don't have a defaut moveset.

 

[Super FOG]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I have the impression that Mii Fighters don't have a defaut moveset.

It's not an impression, it's true. Mii Fighter doesn't have a default moveset. Simply because you will certianly be able to create endless Mii Fighters at your will, as demonstrated by Sakurai in the NDE. And also, in order to create a Mii Fighter, you will need to pick a class: brawler, swordfighter or gunner, equip items to give it attack and defense powers, pick the special moves and pick the outfits.

Mii Fighters are worksome and will only be rewarding to the most creative players. I can see the Mii Fighter being banned in regular torunaments.

===============================

Also, I can only see future for customization tournaments on the 3DS version, because customizing characters is pretty personal, and this thing will be absolutely positively worksome on the Wii U version, even if players being able to upload custom characters from the 3DS to the Wii U.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Also, I can only see future for customization tournaments on the 3DS version, because customizing characters is pretty personal, and this thing will be absolutely positively worksome on the Wii U version, even if players being able to upload custom characters from the 3DS to the Wii U.

That's the reality of it. The 3DS has the capability to have an entirely unique meta game that works around customization. It's something we should sincerely consider as it's something that could give the 3DS some serious life and something just plain awesome!

 

[Soul.]

That's the reality of it. The 3DS has the capability to have an entirely unique meta game that works around customization. It's something we should sincerely consider as it's something that could give the 3DS some serious life and something just plain awesome!

And I agree with this. The 3DS scene has the possibility of being unique with the customization. If there's any way to "balance" it, it'll be alright. Still, though, I think we could combine the standard tournaments with customization in them, we could have a different tournament rule with customization, or just have the standard tournaments with customization as an option.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

And I agree with this. The 3DS scene has the possibility of being unique with the customization. If there's any way to "balance" it, it'll be alright. Still, though, I think we could combine the standard tournaments with customization in them, we could have a different tournament rule with customization, or just have the standard tournaments with customization as an option.

I suspect it'll be fairly self-balancing. The only problem I can see with it is if certain moves are significantly more useful that others, in which case the "customized" characters are going to become "optimized" characters, and the meta-game will stagnate.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I suspect it'll be fairly self-balancing. The only problem I can see with it is if certain moves are significantly more useful that others, in which case the "customized" characters are going to become "optimized" characters, and the meta-game will stagnate.

More then likely characters will be optimized no matter what you try to do. The interest will come from those who break that norm to surprise other players. There will probably be some changes in certain moves to match playstyles too which will help, but optimization is kinda something that we just have to accept will happen eventually.

 

[Soul.]

I suspect it'll be fairly self-balancing. The only problem I can see with it is if certain moves are significantly more useful that others, in which case the "customized" characters are going to become "optimized" characters, and the meta-game will stagnate.

You're right about that. If some custom moves are better than the others, it may make the metagame stale. I'm sure nobody wants that, so what could we do is, like I said, have a standard tournament with no Items and one with customization, but then having two tournaments would be a lot. Maybe have something like this in online tournaments?
"Customization: Yes"
"Customization: No"
That would make it a bit simple, I guess.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, there could be one with no customization at all, with no items, to make it similar to home console tournaments, and one with customization + items, like xSoul said. If that's going to happen, then yeah, there should be separate tournaments but under one umbrella. We'll see once the 3DS game releases. The 3DS competitive scene has a long life ahead of it. I got one idea: instead of having Miis banned, what about if, we make some strict requirements for Mii avatars, like the size, for example? It could work, somewhat, but I'm bad at ideas.

 

[Boss N]

I doubt the custom scene will get stale because of one particularly good combination. With each character having 12 special moves that can be combined in any combination = ALOT of different possibilities. Someone will defiantly find a way to beat that combo, & the whole metagame could revolve around who has the most efficient combo then everyone finding a way to beat that combo. This Perfect Imbalance setup is what keeps other games like League of Legends still a fresh game despite having no gameplay changes in years, and that's what we'll see on the customization scene as well.

 

[Soul.]

I doubt the custom scene will get stale because of one particularly good combination. With each character having 12 special moves that can be combined in any combination = ALOT of different possibilities. Someone will defiantly find a way to beat that combo, & the whole metagame could revolve around who has the most efficient combo then everyone finding a way to beat that combo. This Perfect Imbalance setup is what keeps other games like League of Legends still a fresh game despite having no gameplay changes in years, and that's what we'll see on the customization scene as well.

Yeah, but would it force the players to use at least 1 custom move on their characters? Maybe, maybe not. I agree with you on the part that someone will eventually beat that combination, but then the metagame would have to do the same thing that player did to beat that combination. If there's a way to beat custom characters in a match, it'll be fine, but it's obvious someone will beat a player who's using a customized character.

 

[Boss N]

Yeah, but would it force the players to use at least 1 custom move on their characters? Maybe, maybe not. I agree with you on the part that someone will eventually beat that combination, but then the metagame would have to do the same thing that player did to beat that combination. If there's a way to beat custom characters in a match, it'll be fine, but it's obvious someone will beat a player who's using a customized character.

Yeah you're probably right about that. On a plus, fiddling with custom characters will be easier/more fun then having to learn techs

 

[LiteralGrill]

If a certain combination took over the meta, people would look for a specific way to beat it, then they'd look for the way to beat the specific way that beat it, and it could cycle forever. This would be cool to keep the meta fresh.

 

[Nstinct]

I agree that the metagame would indeed be very fresh. But I'd like to remind everyone that custom move-sets isn't rock, paper, scissors or an elemental battle. With custom move-sets your outfitting yourself with different "tools" to work with, victory relies on your general skill first of all, then on how well you handle your tools.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

This is all conjecture for now, though. Until we have more information, for all we know Fox could have an instant-KO blaster.

Unlikely, but it's still possible that custom tournaments are simply not viable.

If they are viable, you can be pretty sure to see me TOing in the UK.

 

[Number1MinunFan]

I think we should straight up allow customization to mix up the tier lists and have everything be blind so players should be expecting the unexpected

 

[Gusto]

I think they should make a separate online mode where only Mii Fighters are allowed.

 

[Number1MinunFan]

I think the 3DS version will be more for Online Tourneys and Side Tourneys and the Wii U more for Main Toruneys

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah I think the same @ Number1MinunFan . But hey, both versions are awesome.

 

[Boss N]

I think they should make a separate online mode where only Mii Fighters are allowed.

I actually don't mind the idea of Mii only tourney's, seems like a fun way for everyone to show off their creations.

 

[ChikoLad]

I don't think a final decision can be made on this until we find out whether or not Amibos can be used with the 3DS game, once that peripheral comes out next year. If I'm not mistaken, one of their features is to carry character customisations, which might speed up tournaments.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I don't think a final decision can be made on this until we find out whether or not Amibos can be used with the 3DS game, once that peripheral comes out next year. If I'm not mistaken, one of their features is to carry character customisations, which might speed up tournaments.

The 3DS would be able to just have any custom character saved directly to them more then likely, at least for Miis this would be the case. That's one of the reasons the 3DS should be trying customization more then the Wii U, it lacks the logistics issues.

I think we should straight up allow customization to mix up the tier lists and have everything be blind so players should be expecting the unexpected

I've been thinking on this too, it would be interesting. It'd make a HUGE difference on where the custom meta goes.

I think the 3DS version will be more for Online Tourneys and Side Tourneys and the Wii U more for Main Toruneys

Online? Oh yeah there will be a lot I'm personally working on it. But as a side event, this may not be true since as mentioned before, we might be able to allow customization while the Wii U can't. It'd be worthy for its own event easily that way since the meta game is entirely different.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

There's one huge question I've been pondering, and I'd like some input:

Should people be allowed free reign to customise their characters between matches?

I'll outline two of the possible models I think work best, and the details thereof:

1. Players can customise at will

• Would have to start with blind picks, then allow the player to change/customise between games.
• Could be messy, would have to impose time-restrictions for customisation.
• Allows for very detailed and targeted counter-picking strategies.
• An element of preparation is lost from the meta-game.

2. Characters are pre-customised prior to the tournament

• Players customise a few characters before the tournament (limited to around 4 or 5).
• Players can counter-pick from their selection
• Preparation becomes a large factor in the meta-game
• Could potentially cause customisations to become stale, with players opting for "safe" configurations.

I'd be interested to know if you guys have anything to say about these models, or if there is another good way I haven't thought of.

 

[Malex]

1. Players can customise at will

• Would have to start with blind picks, then allow the player to change/customise between games.
• Could be messy, would have to impose time-restrictions for customisation.
• Allows for very detailed and targeted counter-picking strategies.
• An element of preparation is lost from the meta-game.

Blind picks can be used if a player requests for first round, just like always.
I don't expect time issues to be a problem on the 3DS.
An element of preparation is gained in meta-game, as you must expect all things.

2. Characters are pre-customised prior to the tournament

• Players customise a few characters before the tournament (limited to around 4 or 5).
• Players can counter-pick from their selection
• Preparation becomes a large factor in the meta-game
• Could potentially cause customisations to become stale, with players opting for "safe" configurations.

I'd be interested to know if you guys have anything to say about these models, or if there is another good way I haven't thought of.

Why the arbitrary limit on customized characters?
How do you prove they picked from the arbitrary list?
Preparation becomes important, time must be invested to see which players are entering tournaments so you know which customs to bring. No professional Sheik players? Guess you can leave your custom anti-sheik character at home. This does not positively affect the meta.
"Optimum" customizations will already be a thing.



There are only two easy ways to handle custom moves.

Option 1:

Allow all tournament legal custom moves to be selected from any time a character is given the option to select their character.


Option 2:

No custom moves are allowed at all.



Anything other than the above suggestions just makes the situation more difficult to handle. No reason to make it more complicated than it has to be.

 

[ToastMiller]

If you think about it like this,

Each character has 3 custom moves for each of the 4 move slots.

3 x 3 x 3 x 3 is 81 different combinations for each character, ( right? )

Multiply that by the roster size

81x 35 ( not miis ) is 2835 DIFFERENT characters. ( somebody should check my math that number seems huge )

If you add Mii's they also have a choice to be Small, Medium, or Large... So:

3 x 3 x 3 x 3 x 3 is 243 add that to 2835 and we get a whopping 3078 DIFFERENT characters.

Since special moves are split into fast normal and strong we can abbreviate these customization based in an order of moves of neut B side B up B and down B

for example there can be NNNN Mario's as well as FNSS mario or even a SSSS Mario. These tags could be put before a character name on tournament brackets in order for players to easily identify what special moves they have so they won't be blind sighted. Mii Fighters and palutena would replace FNS for 123 and mii fighters would look like this 1322 Mii(S,M,or L)(G,B,S) to reference size and mii type
As far as character locking goes I propose a certain player can choose a set 2 or three characters out of the cast of 3078 so they could have different base characters like a NSFF Mario and a FSSN luigi, or have multiple variants of the same character, I.e. a NNNN Mario and a FFFF Mario. consider that.

Also no equipment that ****'s dumb

also custom moves will most likely be tied to names just like control options. Just my guess tho.

It's basically just like conterpicking a character except there are about 3000 more characters than before I think a good amount of pre-tourney selected characters would be 2 or 3 maybe even 4 though. you would choose between THESE two-four characters for each match.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Normally, (atleast with Palutena) whatever the moves are out the box should be the moves used in competitive play(just so it could be an even playing field), thing is with the Miis I don't know how you transfer them into the game (from scratch or mii maker) so maybe you decide the moves that they have when you transfer them.

 

[Malex]

If you think about it like this,

Each character has 3 custom moves for each of the 4 move slots.

3 x 3 x 3 x 3 is 81 different combinations for each character, ( right? )

Multiply that by the roster size

81x 35 ( not miis ) is 2835 DIFFERENT characters. ( somebody should check my math that number seems huge )

If you add Mii's they also have a choice to be Small, Medium, or Large... So:

3 x 3 x 3 x 3 x 3 is 243 add that to 2835 and we get a whopping 3078 DIFFERENT characters.

Since special moves are split into fast normal and strong we can abbreviate these customization based in an order of moves of neut B side B up B and down B

for example there can be NNNN Mario's as well as FNSS mario or even a SSSS Mario. These tags could be put before a character name on tournament brackets in order for players to easily identify what special moves they have so they won't be blind sighted. Mii Fighters and palutena would replace FNS for 123 and mii fighters would look like this 1322 Mii(S,M,or L)(G,B,S) to reference size and mii type
As far as character locking goes I propose a certain player can choose a set 2 or three characters out of the cast of 3078 so they could have different base characters like a NSFF Mario and a FSSN luigi, or have multiple variants of the same character, I.e. a NNNN Mario and a FFFF Mario. consider that.

Also no equipment that ****'s dumb

also custom moves will most likely be tied to names just like control options. Just my guess tho.

It's basically just like conterpicking a character except there are about 3000 more characters than before I think a good amount of pre-tourney selected characters would be 2 or 3 maybe even 4 though. you would choose between THESE two-four characters for each match.

MvC3 has 48 characters. You get a team of three and each character has the option of three assists. 144 x 141 x 138 = 2,801,952 possible combinations. Their players aren't demanding transparency in the brackets.

The 4,000 possible combinations is honestly not that big of a deal. Forcing players to have preset roster is ridiculous.
Issues:
Why arbitrarily select one number over another? Why 3 instead of 5? Why 5 instead if 7? Why not just force a single character?
How do you enforce it? How do you distinguish between rostered characters and not rostered characters? What if I want two Mario options? I'd have to have more than one name, increasing in the difficulty of tracking rostered characters.
Unneeded increase in difficulty of logistics. Players will have to preregister their custom rosters. Staff will need to spend time investigating claims of cheating.
Reduced options for character selection. Most of the time, limiting options is not a good thing.

Once again, the simplest answer is the best.
Allow a player to alter custom moves anytime they could choose a character or ban everything.

 

[cnkern]

I think it should go
To start
1.character
2.customization
3.stage
Then
1.customization
2.stage

No equipment
No items
All characters legal (unless broken)
All customization legal (unless broken)

Edit: players can play whoever throughout the tourney but can't change mid-match

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

No equipment

I don't see the point of running custom tournaments if a major part of customisation is omitted.
Full customisation options should be allowed to maximise differentiation from standard tournaments.