Smash 3DS The 3DS, Customization, And Tournaments

[LiteralGrill]

Well with the announcement of the Miis yesterday and us getting more information on character customization I thought it would be worth bringing this up and what it means for the 3DS.

While everyone attempting to customize characters on the Wii U will be very difficult, it won't be on the 3DS. Since we would be bringing our own consoles we can have our Miis customized and ready to go, and have the possibility of saving our customized characters for easy quick use.

So while the Wii U competitive scene is already talking about banning customized movesets, we don't have to. This could be a HUGE boon to us in giving us something unique from the Wii U, an entirely different meta.

So, how do we want to handle customized movesets? Will it be the same as a blind pick, where you have to discover what the player decided to use while in battle? Do we tell players outright what the moves will be? Will counterpicking customization be a thing?

In other words, how will we implement customization for 3DS Smash Tournaments?

 

[Goten21]

I definitely hope we'll keep them
The standard should be to keep them, because it brings uniqueness to the table
Besides, it adds a whole new perspective on how you "play" the game and less predictable strategies

But there should also be something like classic tournaments with no customizations (and no items!!!)

 

[「 Derk 」]

I really hope they allow custom movesets in tournament play. It would give your characters a unique feel and give you more control over how you play them compared to someone else. I am hoping we can assign multiple movesets to characters so we can quickly change them up between rounds to adjust to different situations.

Palutena has 12 different specials so she has a lot of diversity and could quickly switch movesets to match up against characters better. Here are some examples:

vs
Teleport, Explosive Flame, Counter, Heavenly Light
Rosalina is a pretty defensive character that will be using Luma for attacking while keeping herself safe. Palutena could switch up her moveset to carry long range attacks to deal with the spacing of Rosalina and counter to deal with Luma.

vs
Quick Glide,Auto Reticle or Explosive Flame, Reflect, Heavenly Light
Link has a good projectile game and it would be hard to approach him safely. Palutena could carry Reflect to deal with the incomming projectile spam and long range moves to force link to approach her. Palutena could damage link offstage and use quick glide to recover safely.

vs
Teleport, Auto Reticle,Counter, Super Speed
Greninja is an extremely quick character so Palutena could switch to a fast moveset to keep up. Counter would work well in this match up due to it shutting down Greninja's combo game and punishing quick approaches. Super Speed and Teleport would allow her to keep up with Greninja's speed and space when needed.

I can see customization staying as long as there is a quick way to change it. Having the ability to switch it up can help characters that would otherwise struggle in a matchup which is good. Could also see some characters that are in the lower tiers become a lot better because of this also which is exciting for me as a Zelda main.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

I think having a separate, custom character tournament would be a good idea. I was considering starting a thread with that aim in mind, but you beat me to it.

As a starting point, I would propose a 1 vs 1, no items format like we're used to, to better control and analyse the differences in the metagame (I would be against adding items, not that I don't like them, but because it adds too many unknown elements simultaneously).

As a 3DS format, I think it would work well as a side-tournament running alongside Wii U competitive events.

Personally, I think this should be the primary focus for Smash 3DS. Differentiation from the Wii U iteration is the best way to keep both scenes fresh, and custom characters seems like the best way to do that.

 

[Super FOG]

I'm already in love with the 3DS version! I can't stop thinking on endless possibilities for tournaments and dozens of variations for competition in the 3DS version.

The 3DS version will allow us to use rulesets that normally would be banned in the Wii U version, such as customizations and the Mii Fighter. These are the advantages of the portability, you can customize your character at your will without bothering about how much doing this would delay the match or unbalance the competition, you can use your own personal Mii Fighter that certainly would be banned in Wii U tourneys due to the fact that the Mii Fighter doesn't have a set moveset like the default characters (and before someone asks, Palutena HAS a default moveset). The 3DS competitive scene would have a notable focus on preparation and strategy beyond the classic skill focus

 

[LiteralGrill]

Thought this might be incredibly relevant, a picture of a screen for character customizing. This is all I have though, apparently it was on a stream.

 

[L9999]

Nothing from another world, just select a move and select an option from the menu... right?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Nothing from another world, just select a move and select an option from the menu... right?

It would seem so. Customization on the 3DS even easier then expected. We have a ton of advantages on the 3DS for customizable play, if the Wii U can't do it for inconvenience we'll easily be able to. Plus one for competitive 3DS Smash!

 

[The TaBuu]

Personally, I'm pretty hyped that 'customization' is a realistic option for the 3DS scene.
I feel that in a game like Smash, blind picks with a customized moveset will hinder the competitive aspect as people may pull wins from having a 'niche' gimp option.
If customized movesets are legal within the competitive 3DS scene, telling opponents beforehand should be an implemented rule. That way, skill remains a large relevant factor and top players are not eliminated from brackets because a lower-skilled player pulled out some last minute super surprise customized move.

Counter-customization also sounds really interesting too, in all honesty. This will bring so much more 'flavor' and 'variety' to the 3DS smash scene that the Wii U scene can't really have.

#team3ds

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

There's two main ways I could see custom-character tournaments working;

1. You customize your character's moveset right at the start, and may only use that one.
2. You choose your character only, and may switch up your moveset between matches.

Personally I prefer the latter, but there still may be more we don't know about the extent of customization. Like with Smash Run, it may be possible to alter details like attack power and speed, in which case the first option may be more interesting.

For Miis, it should be established whether you're using Brawler, Swordsman or Gunner; to allow switching between them midway through a tournament would give them more options than other characters.

 

[The TaBuu]

@ BADGRAPHICS :
Being involved in the competitive Pokémon scene, I have a slight reluctance to allow extensive customization within move sets for characters. I do support customization to an extent as it does allow for some variety to be introduced. However, unlike Pokémon, where not knowing the opponent's move set is not too much of a disadvantage, Smash is an extremely intricate and complicated game that possesses many variables. Allowing a "free-for-all-customization" may result in a messy metagame, in my opinion. That being said, the ability to alter attack power and speed is something I believe should be left alone because that would complicate the Smash competitive scene where winning on skill + match-up knowledge becomes difficult.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

@ BADGRAPHICS :
Being involved in the competitive Pokémon scene, I have a slight reluctance to allow extensive customization within move sets for characters. I do support customization to an extent as it does allow for some variety to be introduced. However, unlike Pokémon, where not knowing the opponent's move set is not too much of a disadvantage, Smash is an extremely intricate and complicated game that possesses many variables. Allowing a "free-for-all-customization" may result in a messy metagame, in my opinion. That being said, the ability to alter attack power and speed is something I believe should be left alone because that would complicate the Smash competitive scene where winning on skill + match-up knowledge becomes difficult.

I play a fair bit of Pokemon myself; I actually think you'd be at less of a disadvantage in Smash Bros when up against an unknown opponent, for a couple of reasons.

• There's a smaller pool of choices to choose from, so results will be more predictable.
• Personal skill plays a larger role in Smash Bros., in Pokemon if you have a bad match-up, you'll almost never win.

I think the best way to run tournaments would be for everybody to pick a character, and stick to it, and be permitted to alter their moves between matches depending on who they're going up against.

Regarding alterable stats (if it's even possible), provided it's balanced and everybody gets the same advantage, skill would still be a predominant factor in deciding the victor. For instance, if it worked by allowing the player to spend a certain number of "points" to buff certain aspects of their character, playing a whole tournament with that customized character (without being allowed to edit) could be a viable variant. Each player would have to attempt to outfit their character for each potential match-up before the tournament begins, without knowing who they're going to fight. That unpredictability could lead to a very interesting meta-game.

Of course, there's always the possibility that there would be a particular character setup that becomes way higher tier than others; so this is all just guesswork until we know more about it.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I play a fair bit of Pokemon myself; I actually think you'd be at less of a disadvantage in Smash Bros when up against an unknown opponent, for a couple of reasons.

• There's a smaller pool of choices to choose from, so results will be more predictable.
• Personal skill plays a larger role in Smash Bros., in Pokemon if you have a bad match-up, you'll almost never win.

I think the best way to run tournaments would be for everybody to pick a character, and stick to it, and be permitted to alter their moves between matches depending on who they're going up against.

So you want full character lock? Some Japanese tournaments have done this and it is interesting. But letting people CP characters is also interesting. It's a tough call.

Regarding alterable stats (if it's even possible), provided it's balanced and everybody gets the same advantage, skill would still be a predominant factor in deciding the victor. For instance, if it worked by allowing the player to spend a certain number of "points" to buff certain aspects of their character, playing a whole tournament with that customized character (without being allowed to edit) could be a viable variant. Each player would have to attempt to outfit their character for each potential match-up before the tournament begins, without knowing who they're going to fight. That unpredictability could lead to a very interesting meta-game.

Of course, there's always the possibility that there would be a particular character setup that becomes way higher tier than others; so this is all just guesswork until we know more about it.

I think the issues with the stats is that how much they are effected is generated randomly for the items you equip. Someone having bad luck and not being able to get the good power gloves shouldn't stop you from winning a tournament. Items in Pokemon are standard which makes them a lot different.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

So you want full character lock? Some Japanese tournaments have done this and it is interesting. But letting people CP characters is also interesting. It's a tough call.

Not that I'm necessarily calling for it, as much as I think it would difficult to manage all those options. It would be difficult to organise selection order for each player for that many variables.

I suppose it could be done by picking characters in the standard way, then having customisation done totally blind afterward.

I think the issues with the stats is that how much they are effected is generated randomly for the items you equip. Someone having bad luck and not being able to get the good power gloves shouldn't stop you from winning a tournament. Items in Pokemon are standard which makes them a lot different.

I wasn't aware we knew that much about it. Do we have all the stat customisation stuff compiled here somewhere?

 

[tyc]

I don't realy see why we should go for a full character lock format, simply adding a customization step to the current picking method would be just fine:

1) Looser picks stage
2) Winner picks character
3) Looser picks character
4) Both player customize as it pleases them on their screen

I don't see the issue here.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I wasn't aware we knew that much about it. Do we have all the stat customisation stuff compiled here somewhere?

I'm not sure, I just know what I saw on the treehouse streams.

 

[Goten21]

I play a fair bit of Pokemon myself; I actually think you'd be at less of a disadvantage in Smash Bros when up against an unknown opponent, for a couple of reasons.

• There's a smaller pool of choices to choose from, so results will be more predictable.
• Personal skill plays a larger role in Smash Bros., in Pokemon if you have a bad match-up, you'll almost never win.

I think the best way to run tournaments would be for everybody to pick a character, and stick to it, and be permitted to alter their moves between matches depending on who they're going up against.

Regarding alterable stats (if it's even possible), provided it's balanced and everybody gets the same advantage, skill would still be a predominant factor in deciding the victor. For instance, if it worked by allowing the player to spend a certain number of "points" to buff certain aspects of their character, playing a whole tournament with that customized character (without being allowed to edit) could be a viable variant. Each player would have to attempt to outfit their character for each potential match-up before the tournament begins, without knowing who they're going to fight. That unpredictability could lead to a very interesting meta-game.

Of course, there's always the possibility that there would be a particular character setup that becomes way higher tier than others; so this is all just guesswork until we know more about it.

You're able to apply items that will change the stats

They're not really items, more like armor

 

[MrGameandBalls]

Online customization tourneys would be perfect. I hope Sakurai makes community codes like in MK7.
There could be a giant Smashboards customization community with tournaments every week. I do hope that this will be a thing. Out of three IMO blind pick seems the most fun but I think this should differ from every tournament.

Customization seems would kinda be like Pokemon, but it's different.
In Pokemon, you have type advantages. When you have a fighting pokemon in and he throws in Alakazam, you know your screwed so you switch. (Unless you have a move that can KO him and your faster.)
In Sm4sh, you dont have any real advantages with custom movesets. Since everyone can have his own custom moveset it's pretty much balanced. You can look at every single character's moves too so you are prepared for anything.

 

[Nstinct]

I'd prefer not to be character locked. Although some tournaments have that so I could live with it, other tournaments seems to allow a choice of two characters. I had thought when character customization came out it would allow for people to be more custom and seem more original. I figured I'd find a moveset I enjoyed using and just stick with it. But at the same time I can see the reason in choosing Mario's Fire orb against opponents that are really aggressive. It seems a little bit like counter picking characters to me so my feelings are "meh".

Although in those scenarios when a player is getting dominated and has no momentum, it'd be interesting to see how he does if he swaps his moveset. The match would feel pretty fresh watching it. So as long as I can choose between my Main and Secondary, I don't think I really care. I'm probably just going to find moves I like and stick with em.

 

[MrGameandBalls]

Swapping movesets seems cool with me. And I don't wanna be character locked either. I hate it when you have to keep using the same character, it's just boring IMO. I'd rather switch my char every 2 matches.

 

[Nstinct]

Just an extra note: I'm for custom movesets for sure. It just would it be good for everyone to re-customize after every match I'm not so sure. I'm not sure if people would like feeling counter moved, in big tournaments I don't see people counter characters very often, but if someone could purposely choose an "anti-aerial" moveset I don't know if people will get upset or not. That's why I feel if we were able to customize movesets every match it'd feel like being countered even if characters are locked. Still I'm not totally against it since it could be interesting.

 

[Kerreb17]

As many above me have said, having the custom movesets is fine by me; and I would even go so far as to say it's a great benefit to the game itself. Don't need the projectile reflect of Mario's cape? You will have the option to make your characters even more effective, and give everyone a more unique way to approach their fighting style.

I have two conditions, however, that I feel must be met in order to keep these movesets tournament legal:
1) They must be efficient (easy to access from the character select screen)
2) There has to be an established order of picking movesets in the tournament rules (most likely based on game loss)

First, having to bump out of the menu just to change a moveset for each game you play is tedious, and would only hurt tournament play. In this instance, it's definitely a negative. If there were, say, two buttons below the character portrait (one for name change and the other for moveset change), then that would be fine.

For the second point, in changing movesets, I could see two possibilities to keep tournament play fair and concise.

In the first scenario, both players must start the match using a specific custom moveset (they would be moveset locked). Whoever wins the game does not get to change the moveset, while the loser can change his moveset. Stage selection is done normally.

Alternatively, both players (again) must start the match using a specific custom moveset. Before the next game, the following procedure would be followed:
1) Winner changes moveset
2) Loser changes moveset
3) Winner blocks stages
4) Loser picks stage
OR
1) Winner changes moveset
2) Winner blocks stages
3) Loser changes moveset
4) Loser picks stage

The winner would HAVE to pick their moveset first, else both players would be stuck trying to counterpick each others' moveset choices in what could become an endless cycle. The former order is more balanced, while the bottom order is tailored to the losing player.

We also have to keep in mind that some custom options might be exceedingly strong compared to others (if balancing were not done correctly). The issues of banning certain custom moves would certainly come up if custom movesets are impelemented into tournament play. Just be prepared to deal with that, even if it doesn't look like it'll happen.

I don't think that these demands are too great. I welcome the opportunity for custom movesets to change the game and give it more of a competitive bite, while still retaining a fun change of pace for the casual audience. If the stipulations above aren't met, though, I fear that they might have to be excluded from tournament play simply due to convenience.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

Regardless of what we end up doing for this, it's something that needs a great deal of experimentation to get right. With such huge variation, picking order is going to more important than ever.

I think the following order would lead to the least problems:

1. Stage
2. Characters
3. Customizations (blind)

Having the stage selected first is something I've always been fond of. Certain characters get a noticeable advantage on different stages, and adapting your character pick to the stage mitigates that somewhat.

 

[Kiondrick]

I'm all for this idea actually. I would love to get in the competitive scene on my 3DS. Just need to test on how to balance it.

 

[Nstinct]

I think the following order would lead to the least problems:

1. Stage
2. Characters
3. Customizations (blind)

Having the stage selected first is something I've always been fond of. Certain characters get a noticeable advantage on different stages, and adapting your character pick to the stage mitigates that somewhat.

We should play by tournament rules where in the first match the Characters are selected, then the stage. From then on it's Stage, Characters, then Customization.

We also have to keep in mind that some custom options might be exceedingly strong compared to others (if balancing were not done correctly). The issues of banning certain custom moves would certainly come up if custom movesets are impelemented into tournament play. Just be prepared to deal with that, even if it doesn't look like it'll happen.

We could ban certains moves only if a few custom moves were obviously over powered. But if the list grows and moves are being banned every now and then, we'd have to consider banning custom movesets. Depending on how many are over power the list could become to tricky to keep up with. That being said I hope Sakurai and his team balances the custom moves well, least something so great be pushed to the side.

 

[MrGameandBalls]

Is anyone gonna get the JP version of the game? If so he/she could test it early so when the game is out everywhere else were close to being ready?

 

[DaDavid]

I'll admit I'm just kinda skimming so that I can contribute, so I apologize is this post seems at all unproductive, but...

Based on the info we got, it seems that customization is pretty restricted, at least, in the sense that there is only so much one can do. I think the only real problem would be in changing characters mid-tourney, (which I realize is fairly common) but if a player sticks to just their main and like, registers for the tourney with a certain moveset tied to that main, I think they could be implemented.

 

[Over9000chainz]

I'm more than sure I'm the only one that doesn't like this idea right now. To be fair, I'd have to see the full extent of the customization first.

 

[Boss N]

From what I've gathered this are our possible options:

1. You customize your character's moveset right at the start, and may only use that one.
2. You choose your character only, and may switch up your moveset between matches.

1) Looser picks stage
2) Winner picks character
3) Looser picks character
4) Both player customize as it pleases them on their screen

In the first scenario, both players must start the match using a specific custom moveset (they would be moveset locked). Whoever wins the game does not get to change the moveset, while the loser can change his moveset. Stage selection is done normally.

Alternatively, both players (again) must start the match using a specific custom moveset. Before the next game, the following procedure would be followed:
1) Winner changes moveset
2) Loser changes moveset
3) Winner blocks stages
4) Loser picks stage
OR
1) Winner changes moveset
2) Winner blocks stages
3) Loser changes moveset
4) Loser picks stage

The winner would HAVE to pick their moveset first, else both players would be stuck trying to counterpick each others' moveset choices in what could become an endless cycle. The former order is more balanced, while the bottom order is tailored to the losing player.
.

Now here's my 2cents:
While i am completely for customization in competitive play the biggest issue I'm seeing is how long is it going to take to change moves? Allowing move changes entirely depends on how accessible it is to do so, if it's as easy as having the roster and selected characters on the top screen and custom moves on the bottom then it shouldn't be a problem. But if it requires a whole different menu to go to then it should be out of the question.

Alternatively though it's been revealed that variants of special moves can be assigned to any direction, resulting in more time spent scrolling between settings before you find the move you want, and that eats time up possibly derailing the flow of the tournament and causing delays which no one likes, especially spectators. My thinking is that setting custom moves shouldn't take any longer than the counter-picking stage process, if it takes longer then we should consider locking custom moves just for matches and allowing changes in between while the player waits for their next match. I believe this is the optimum route to take as it won't interrupt the flow of the tournament and if the matchup doesn't work then they can just select a different character instead of going through the long process of changing moves.

Now if we're dealing with tournaments that do lock characters then I think mid-match changes are acceptable since some match-ups naturally do better than others and it gives people who are at the deficit end more of an equal playing field, but since time is still going to be an issue I think for these kind of tournaments we should either;
A) Allow Both players to blindly customize moves before the match and lock it, and allow only counter-picking stages
B) Loser can either change their moves or counter pick stage, but only one or the other, not both.

I really like the idea of Kerreb17's first proposal on how the flow should go but I'm not sure if it would work because it would take too long. Time has to be the biggest thing consider when think about this.

 

[Second Power]

B) Loser can either change their moves or counter pick stage, but only one or the other, not both.

If this is the case, how is the stage chosen?

Edit: And what if you can link custom movesets to tags? If this is the case, players would be expected to have any setups they desire to use premade removing any issue with time constraints.

 

[Boss N]

If this is the case, how is the stage chosen?

They remain on the stage they where previously been fighting on.

 

[Kerreb17]

While i am completely for customization in competitive play the biggest issue I'm seeing is how long is it going to take to change moves? Allowing move changes entirely depends on how accessible it is to do so, if it's as easy as having the roster and selected characters on the top screen and custom moves on the bottom then it shouldn't be a problem. But if it requires a whole different menu to go to then it should be out of the question.

I have two conditions, however, that I feel must be met in order to keep these movesets tournament legal:
1) They must be efficient (easy to access from the character select screen)
2) There has to be an established order of picking movesets in the tournament rules (most likely based on game loss)

First, having to bump out of the menu just to change a moveset for each game you play is tedious, and would only hurt tournament play. In this instance, it's definitely a negative. If there were, say, two buttons below the character portrait (one for name change and the other for moveset change), then that would be fine.

Birds of a feather flock together.

I really like the idea of Kerreb17's first proposal on how the flow should go but I'm not sure if it would work because it would take too long. Time has to be the biggest thing consider when think about this.

Thanks for the ref. Again, the time it takes to change movesets is one of the factors that would determine whether we should keep them or not.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

Wrong thread, sorry

 

[yoyowoodchuckguy]

Personally, I think that tourneys with customizable move-sets are a great idea; however, the character choices should be somewhat limited. Allowing every single character to use any of their customizable moves could cause there to be a bit too much mystery in the bracket. There's no WAY someone (unless you're m2k) could know all of the moves for every character; add to that the large number of moveset options for one character alone, and you have yourself set for a lot of chaos.

I think a better ide would be to have Mii fighter only tournaments; this way, there is still a degree of unpredictability, and you still get to express your personality, while having a more reasonable expectation of players in regards to matchup knowledge.

 

[C_Mill24]

I'd rather have there be no limitations with move set customization in tournament play. I would tournaments to be both competitive and fun, and limiting the character choices and move set customization sounds like the wrong decision to make.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I'd rather have there be no limitations with move set customization in tournament play. I would tournaments to be both competitive and fun, and limiting the character choices and move set customization sounds like the wrong decision to make.

Agreed. Just imagine the different combinations of characters people would have to deal with. The different types of Marios that could be created is astonishing or any other characters for that matter.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well we got that BIG update on Miis today, their size actually matters on how they fight. We're entering some seriously difficult territory now.

I'm starting to think if moves are going to be custom and we allow it all it will definitely need to be required to let the opponent know your customizations before the match.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

Well we got that BIG update on Miis today, their size actually matters on how they fight. We're entering some seriously difficult territory now.

I'm starting to think if moves are going to be custom and we allow it all it will definitely need to be required to let the opponent know your customizations before the match.

I think that's the wrong way to go. Allowing each player to know their opponent removes a layer, that being preparedness and anticipation.

For custom tournaments, this could a huge part of the metagame; making sure your character is outfitted for a variety of outcomes. I think it's a little early to call.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I think that's the wrong way to go. Allowing each player to know their opponent removes a layer, that being preparedness and anticipation.

For custom tournaments, this could a huge part of the metagame; making sure your character is outfitted for a variety of outcomes. I think it's a little early to call.

You're probably right. I guess we really just need to know all we can before thinking on it. By September we'll have enough spoilers to really talk.

 

[Backgammon]

In my opinion, it would be best done in one of a few ways:

1. At the start of the match and only then, both opponents are given the customisation information of the other.
2. Double blind.
3. Customisation information is given to a neutral third party. That customisation is locked. Blind pick.

In all of the above, if certain custom moves (I'm likely looking at you, Auto-Reticle) turn out to be TOO powerful, they can be banned in case-by-case basis.