Thar's your proof

[ADHD]

Sheik does have a chaingrab on ness here it is just skim to ness

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=i85euqQhlS4

 

[Gaussis]

There are many factors involved here. If DI is applied, I doubt Shiek will reach Ness fast enough. And for the jump break, Ness reacts more quickly than the characters involved. Not to mention that you can interrupt the grab with something we call the super grab break. So, no until we find otherwise.

 

[Uffe]

Still worth checking out.

 

[Xebenkeck]

interesting, good and bad news for me, who plays zelda aswell as ness

 

[Gaussis]

We haven't tested this though. It might end up being genuine, but we haven't looked into this yet so don't jump to conclusions.

 

[Uffe]

Someone else test this, please. Apparently I can't work it correctly with my brother. I might be doing it wrong because he'll either jump out high or not even be grabbed by it the second time.

 

[ph00tbag]

There are many factors involved here. If DI is applied, I doubt Shiek will reach Ness fast enough. And for the jump break, Ness reacts more quickly than the characters involved. Not to mention that you can interrupt the grab with something we call the super grab break. So, no until we find otherwise.

There's no DI in grab breaks, fyi.

 

[Gaussis]

You are incorrect, sir. Test this out: grab break without holding back on the control stick. Then try holding back. There is a small, yet significant difference and it allows Ness to escape many of the supposed grab release "chain grabs" other characters have on Ness and Lucas. Though I cannot tell Lucas's position based on the video alone

EDIT: That is why I was skeptical, Uffe. Though it might work...then we tremble.

 

[ColinJF]

It doesn't appear to work.

If it did work it does less damage than a throw.

 

[Levitas]

There's no DI in grab JUMP breaks, fyi.

fixed.

yeah...

 

[Uffe]

Anybody else other than ColinJF and I try this out yet? I can't say I did it properly, so more testing would be good.

 

[thesage]

Yea.... the only one that seems problematic is jump break to fair and that grab release to f-tilt...

Test out grab release to f-tilt. The chaingrab hardly does any damage so I don't really care if it works or not.

 

[Ref]

Did you try double jumping when you jump break? the double jump is the fastest thing you can do.... and you can air dodge after if you still need it....

Ness has one of the best jump breaks in the game, he can pretty much jump at the peak of his break... However it doesn't give too much distance so I don't know...

 

[PKNintendo]

Sigh. Doesn't anyone here have a brother? Okay I just tested this out. Unlike wario, Lucas or Mario, Ness actually has a kick-*** jumpbreak. Sheik can't reach him with any aerial/attack.


On the negative side, she can grab you, and grab release ftilt you.


But she can't CG grab you.

 

[thesage]

On the negative side, she can grab you, and grab release ftilt you.

That's a bad thing. Grab release to f-tilt lock. Q_Q

It's good nobody plays her in my area lol.

 

[Earthbound360]

It shouldnt work.
First of all, the Ness wasn't DIing backwards. You can DI ground breaks. Also, if the Ness uses the super grab break, the damage output is only aroun 20%, which is about as much if not less than a basic grab combo.

For the ftilt thing, if the Ness smash DIs backwards, he could probably escape the ftilt.

Anything with the airbreak is null. Ness airbreak is awesome and his double jump easliy lets him escape most if not all airbreak combos.

Basically, this sux on Ness.

 

[Ref]

Yea EB360 we already figured out the CG does not work. The jump break to f air does not work either. Only thing that may work is grab release to forward tilt.

 

[PKNintendo]

Yea EB360 we already figured out the CG does not work. The jump break to f air does not work either. Only thing that may work is grab release to forward tilt.

Which I might add, can be effectively averted with your super grab break discovery (surprise the player)

 

[kennypu]

sorry to ask, but whats a super grab break? o.o. sounds pretty cool. lol

 

[Gaussis]

I guess we kinda forgot to explain it.

If anyone wants a more detailed description, go to Earthbound360's guide, Ctrl+F (that's what I do) and type Super Grab Break. Basically, roll the control stick in a circle (I think) and flick the c-stick (forgot if this was necessary) during a grab, and you get released super early (like 1-2 hits from Marth at 0 I believe). To get this and DI, roll the control stick towards the back and flick the c-stick back.

 

[Earthbound360]

^^^
Remember to hold down the shield button while you do this and tap the C-stick downwards to buff a spotdodge when possible

 

[Tyr_03]

lol seriously guys? "super grab break"? Pretty much everyone's known how to break out of a grab for a very long time. I don't think we need to name it. Especially something that dramatic for something so idiotically simple and common. I realize Brawl brought in a lot of new players that don't know any better but come on. The rest of us should know better than to make some idiotic name for it.

Also this video is BS. Those don't work on Lucas. Learn how to DI Japan. And...jump....

 

[Levitas]

Jumping's for noobs. I'm gonna go back to lucas upsmashing my friends now.

 

[Ref]

It's true everyone should have know how to break a grab but I brought it up because I've been watching people get pummeled about 5 times at 0 percent because all they do is mash buttons and go wild on their controller...

Everyone should have been at least breaking grabs by rotating the controller...

So it will definitively stay under this name... What else to call it but Rotate the controller and flick the C stick...

People mash buttons... Ask a lot of people how they break from grabs and they'll tell you mash buttons...

Pressing R, L, A, B, Y, X, or Z will deduct 6 frames...
press it 4 times and it's 24 frames

Pressing 1 cardinal direction takes away 6 frames...
Basically 1 rotation is 24 frames

Because of brawl's weird C stick you can no longer smash unless you return to neutral so rotating this is useless...

C stick inputs a direction and A... It should still do it in grabs... You can add R's and L's to this...

Certain things will slower your rotation... This is a personally preference... It depends on how your bones and muscles are in your hands...

In essence Rotate the control stick and Press Some sort of button(s)... For me this happens to be the C stick...

Which still unable to prove may input 1 direction and A...
Meaning even if I flick it half as slow as I press A I will still break as fast as pressing A...
( I actually flick it a lot faster than I press A

Plus due to me having access to R and L using My method helps me when I need to spot dodge...

People go spamtastic on their controls, Not necessarily a bad thing but if you are getting pummeled 5 or 4 times by Marth at 0 percent, You have a problem...

And if you get grabbed again or even better attacked out of the grab you have a problem as well...

So Yes, We do not Need a name for it, But people recognize and use things that have names better... We post here to try to help people in their quest to be good... Sometimes we have to name and point out the obvious...

 

[Tyr_03]

lol okay. I guess I'll go off super DIing Diddy's Fsmash. (aka smash DIing toward to escape the second hit.)

 

[PKNintendo]

It's true everyone should have know how to break a grab but I brought it up because I've been watching people get pummeled about 5 times at 0 percent because all they do is mash buttons and go wild on their controller...

Everyone should have been at least breaking grabs by rotating the controller...

So it will definitively stay under this name... What else to call it but Rotate the controller and flick the C stick...

People mash buttons... Ask a lot of people how they break from grabs and they'll tell you mash buttons...

Pressing R, L, A, B, Y, X, or Z will deduct 6 frames...
press it 4 times and it's 24 frames

Pressing 1 cardinal direction takes away 6 frames...
Basically 1 rotation is 24 frames

Because of brawl's weird C stick you can no longer smash unless you return to neutral so rotating this is useless...

C stick inputs a direction and A... It should still do it in grabs... You can add R's and L's to this...

Certain things will slower your rotation... This is a personally preference... It depends on how your bones and muscles are in your hands...

In essence Rotate the control stick and Press Some sort of button(s)... For me this happens to be the C stick...

Which still unable to prove may input 1 direction and A...
Meaning even if I flick it half as slow as I press A I will still break as fast as pressing A...
( I actually flick it a lot faster than I press A

Plus due to me having access to R and L using My method helps me when I need to spot dodge...

People go spamtastic on their controls, Not necessarily a bad thing but if you are getting pummeled 5 or 4 times by Marth at 0 percent, You have a problem...

And if you get grabbed again or even better attacked out of the grab you have a problem as well...

So Yes, We do not Need a name for it, But people recognize and use things that have names better... We post here to try to help people in their quest to be good... Sometimes we have to name and point out the obvious...

So is the matchup no longer broken?
versus Marth I mean.

 

[Ref]

So is the matchup no longer broken?
versus Marth I mean.

It never was broken... All marth does is chain grab Ness... Break out faster DI away, it'll end faster and result in less damage...

It's not infinite like people say....

 

[Levitas]

It's still broken. Marth has a really good matchup against ness with or without the sadgrab. and minimizing damage doesn't change the fact that you're caught in a bunch of unavoidable damage that ends in a smash.

 

[Ref]

It's still broken. Marth has a really good matchup against ness with or without the sadgrab. and minimizing damage doesn't change the fact that you're caught in a bunch of unavoidable damage that ends in a smash.

It doesn't end in a smash.... Yes you will take a bit of damage... No it is not broken, I faced Marths in tourneys and won pretty easily... F air out ranges Marth's sword

Without the sadgrab against Ness it's pretty hard for Marth... Or for the Marths I faced

 

[Brinzy]

Uh.... last time I checked, Marth out-everything'd Ness in every department except for weight and having a projectile.

 

[Levitas]

what marths have you been facing, ref?

and how are you escaping the dsmash finish? Last I tested, breaking out with away DI lands a tipper, and without lands a normal hit.

and ProAPC's friends started using up b to finish, which hits significantly faster.

 

[Ref]

Ah you're right the smash does hit... And so does up b...

This is not broken at all... Just stay at the edge and camp properly...

If they get too close push them back if F airs and aerials...

Know when to grab and Back throw...

And None of the marths I faced with or without the sad grab were bad players...

Maybe I'm good against marth... I don't know...

 

[Gaussis]

Uh.... last time I checked, Marth out-everything'd Ness in every department except for weight and having a projectile.

You forgot aerial mobility, which enables Ness to actually be able to beat Marth in the air. Ness also outranges Marth in certain areas.

 

[Earthbound360]

Marth is a bad matchup, but the deathgrab shouldnt be anything to fear. The grabs do no more than about 15% which would be about the same damage as a properly excecuted throw combo.
The dsmash can land, but the Marth has to time it right if you shield.

But still, Ness is outranged, edgeguarded well by Marth, and horrible to fight in the air. Ness can outrange him with the fair, has better KO power, and better throws. (This was just against the Marth>Ness in every department).

 

[Ref]

Then it's settled I'm just good against Marths.... For some unknown reason...

 

[PKNintendo]

Then its settled, the infinite isn't that bad. Then why does Ness have bad tourney results?

 

[Ref]

Then its settled, the infinite isn't that bad. Then why does Ness have bad tourney results?

It isn't an infinite, call it something else please, Ness has bad tourney results because not many people play Ness in tourneys...

 

[ColinJF]

I agree with Ref. Marth isn't that hard without the chaingrab.

Anyway, with regard to the original topic, I had an idea for a simple procedure, with little room for error, to test which characters can force you to break on the ground. My online friend AA tested the whole cast by himself (you can see his results here). The result is that Sheik cannot force a ground break. This means that if you make the grab counter run out between two pummels and the last input you made was a jump input, you will jump break 100% of the time, and Sheik has nothing guaranteed on Ness out of a jump break. This is relatively easy to do if you mash only X and Y, rather than attempting to break out of the grab as fast as possible (the extra damage is well worth it rather than being stuck in a forward tilt lock).

 

[Earthbound360]

It doesnt matter whether or not you press jump last. Its based on whether or not the opponent was pummelling when you were relased and how tall the characters are. Characters taller than the target will always air release them if they do not pummel (and thankfully, Ness is short so he can jump break a lot of people). For example, if a pummel is not input when Ness breaks out, he will ALWAYS jump break Sheiks grab release. The only way to ensure a jump break is if the characters' pummel rate is fairly slow like bowser or Ivysaurs.

Dont mash X and Y. Spin control stick, flick C-stick down, hold shield button.

Marth is still a bad matchup. I do well on him, but its still a bad matchup.

 

[ColinJF]

It's definitely related to jump inputs when you deplete the grab counter yourself (as opposed to it running out of time). Though I suppose more research needs to be done on the exact way the inputs matter, but I already have a general hypothesis. (Being held above the ground is of course relevant as well.)

Versus Marth it's better to break out as fast as possible though, not to use only jump inputs (I was talking about Sheik). As I said in my post, Sheik cannot force a ground break.