Technicality vs. Mindgames

[Misty!]

After seeing the arguments about mind games in the "Age of Tech Skill" forum, I thought that it deserves a thread of its own.

IMO, technicality > mindgames because of its consistency.

Mindgames can easily overcome someone who plays in a strict manner and may not know how to pass it SOMETIMES, but then SOMETIMES a person can easily overcome a mindgame and it becomes rather useless.

Technicality at its highest level of performance will usually always beat the other opponent, since it comes down to a matter of skill; it's almost logic. Take Bombsoldier for instance, his style of fighting shares almost NO variation, thus barely any trickery or mindgames involved, yet STILL he manages to win most of his matches through an almost inhumane skill of technicality and be arguably the best player EVER.

 

[Red Exodus]

How is someone going to win if they don't read their opponent's movements at all? How are they going to win if they don't step-up their opponents for a kill?

Obviously mindgames matter otherwise your actions will be crystal clear and will be extremely easy to avoid.

 

[Razed]

A good example of Mindgames > Technical skill is found in Japan. Aniki is famous for not Wavedashing, as Masashi is for not Shorthopping

 

[Misty!]

How is someone going to win if they don't read their opponent's movements at all? How are they going to win if they don't step-up their opponents for a kill?

Obviously mindgames matter otherwise your actions will be crystal clear and will be extremely easy to avoid.

When someone baits, suicides, evades, or perform any possible type of mindgame against Bombsoldier, does BS go into a seizure and his brain explodes? Just because you don't use mind games often or at all doesn't mean you can't read your opponent's move and act on spot.

 

[Razed]

When someone baits, suicides, evades, or perform any possible type of mindgame against Bombsoldier, does BS go into a seizure and his brain explodes? Just because you don't use mind games often or at all doesn't mean you can't read your opponent's move and act on spot.

That's because BS is an experienced player, and has his own mindgames. I assure you that many, many people have close to the same technical skill as BS, almost every player does now, but what separates other falcos from him is his mindgames.

Example: Me. I have very good technical skill, just the same as any else going to STYD2. But I am going to get *****. Why? Because I have never played a single good person before. Everyone I play can't even short hop. My mindgames are not developed enough to beat the more experienced players there

 

[Misty!]

That's because BS is an experienced player, and has his own mindgames. I assure you that many, many people have close to the same technical skill as BS, almost every player does now, but what separates other falcos from him is his mindgames.

Example: Me. I have very good technical skill, just the same as any else going to STYD2. But I am going to get *****. Why? Because I have never played a single good person before. Everyone I play can't even short hop. My mindgames are not developed enough to beat the more experienced players there

Know what, I ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY agree with you, but everyone is missing my point. Technicality is a high level of skill with consistency (basically doing what you meant to do, in means of winning), right? I think I'm right. And mindgames are a variation within techniques (or could be a certain technique) solely in order to confuse and disorient the opponent and set an advantage, right? I think that in a battle with an excellent technical player vs a poorly constructed technical player with apparent good mindgames, the excellent technical player would win.

 

[Razed]

Know what, I ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY agree with you, but everyone is missing my point. Technicality is a high level of skill with consistency (basically doing what you meant to do, in means of winning), right? I think I'm right. And mindgames are a variation within techniques (or could be a certain technique) solely in order to confuse and disorient the opponent and set an advantage, right? I think that in a battle with an excellent technical player vs a poorly constructed technical player with apparent good mindgames, the excellent technical player would win.

I also agree with you there. If player X can't WD, shine, L cancel, shorthop, edgehog ect, he would most definitely lose to a good technical player, regardless of how good his mindgames are.

I think the moral of the story here is, mindgames only go so far if you have poor technical skill. You need a balanced combination of the two in order to maximize the potential in each.

 

[Misty!]

I also agree with you there. If player X can't WD, shine, L cancel, shorthop, edgehog ect, he would most definitely lose to a good technical player, regardless of how good his mindgames are.

I think the moral of the story here is, mindgames only go so far if you have poor technical skill. You need a balanced combination of the two in order to maximize the potential in each.

Amen. The thread is basically closed from here unless anyone wants to argue with my or Razed's previous post, lol.

 

[Red Exodus]

I'll be a gineau [sp?] pig for that test Razed. I have a friend who uses advanced techs. while I do not be the sole reason that I haven't mastered them [I know how to do them I can't practice at all].

I'm not saying you don't need technical skill at all, but you need a balance to become a good player. After all, a player with excellent technical skill and no mindgames will lose to a player with excellent technical skill and excellent mindgames.

 

[dReAMCloUd - Assault K 40]

What kind of argument is that....yah TECHNIQUE....not technicality will beat out mindgames for those who don't have the tools to use those mindgames effectively.....at the same time....technique in a game like this only gets you so far. And oh yah mindgames isn't a proper term, deductive reasoning is better. Deductive reasoning has limitless possibilities....can you say the same of technique? Not in a digital fighting game.....you could maybe argue that in real life........as in pushing the body past the conventional limits but it makes no sense to focus on technique past a certain level. Either way your technique will improve slowly even if not concentrated on........same with experience contributing to your deductive reasoning, however in tournament the latter will allow you to go much further..not the former. With avg level of tech. skill with any given player with maybe the exception of fox and falco and incredibly insightful reasoning......you'll go much further.

Here's a counter to your argument....and an example : DREPHEN. That's all folks.

 

[Razed]

@Exodus: Thanks ;D

What kind of argument is that....yah TECHNIQUE....not technicality will beat out mindgames for those who don't have the tools to use those mindgames effectively.....at the same time....technique in a game like this only gets you so far. And oh yah mindgames isn't a proper term, deductive reasoning is better. Deductive reasoning has limitless possibilities....can you say the same of technique? Not in a digital fighting game.....you could maybe argue that in real life........as in pushing the body past the conventional limits but it makes no sense to focus on technique past a certain level. Either way your technique will improve slowly even if not concentrated on........same with experience contributing to your deductive reasoning, however in tournament the latter will allow you to go much further..not the former. With avg level of tech. skill with any given player with maybe the exception of fox and falco and incredibly insightful resaoning......you'll go much further.

Here's a counter to your argument....and an example : DREPHEN. That's all folks.

Instead of putting "..." all the time, try using paragraphs and proper capitalization and punctuation so I can read that without my eyes bleeding

 

[the problem]

I think that you need both to wint he battle, without either of the two chances are you'll loose the match. Although mind games are a bit more important in a way, because without mind games you might aswell just be attacking your opponent/opponents constantly, and they would just shield grab into a combo etc... With mind games instead of just attacking you can WD backwards and then forwards to fake him etc...

edited: sorry i didnt put why =p

 

[Red Exodus]

Ah no problem Razed, just trying to keep the peace in the forums.

P.S. time to go spend some quality time with my family >.>

 

[linkmastersword]

ok, there should be another category that we all need to consider.

KNOWLEDGE OF THE GAME

this means that you know how EVERY character responds to every attack at any damage.

now, you may have insane tech skill with falco for training against a level 1 Ganon at .6 damage ratio (that's what I do) but this won't help out at all if you don't have sufficient knowledge of the game, which is why I still get crushed, but I can pull out some great combo's


BS has a very extremely high knowledge of the game, he knows how long a character will lag after a nair, and he knows how soon he can catch up to them and do another nair.

what I'm trying to say is that when considering who has a better knowledge of the game and the particular match up will usually come out on top.

what we should compare though, is given two of the same characters and equal knowledge of the game, 1 with crazy mindgames, the other with crazy tech skill. who wins????


well, the answer depends on which character we are comparing. if it's samus then the one with mind games wins

if its falco, you better bet the person with tech skill wins, 100% of the time probably. some character's strengths rely heavily on great tech skill, falco being one of them, and cf being another.


so you can't speak about this in a general sense, we need to consider more things, such as characters, knowledge of the game and match up, and experience, good god experience.




ok, have fun picking apart this post and continue with your debates.

 

[Misty!]

AGREED Exodus, and cya, tell your mom I said hi- rofl.

As for the problem, please say WHY you think mind games are more important.

And finally as for dreamcloud, I agree with Razed, the whole ... thing lowered the intellegence of your post by a bunch, although I thought you had some good points; 'deductive reasoning'- I like that term. And if Drephen has youtube vids I'll be glad to watch.

EDIT: Awesome points linkmastersword and I think it links around to what Superstar said in the New Tech Age thread: "Like Rock Lee said in Naruto to Sasuke, knowing my moves is useless if you can't keep up."

 

[NG7]

I'd edit that first post about Bombsoldier being the best. People that haven't already gotten sick of this topic may get angry at you.

This argument has been done before:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=89267
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=77508
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=72807

 

[Misty!]

I'd edit that first post about Bombsoldier being the best. People that haven't already gotten sick of this topic may get angry at you.

This argument has been done before:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=89267
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=77508
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=72807

I said ARGUABLY the best.
...and about the other threads; Oops. My mistake and I wouldn't mind this thread being closed nor hesistate to post on the previous threads.

 

[plasmawisp6633]

Here's the scenario:

Player X has never played SSBM in her life. Player Y (who is also a fool who has never played SSBM) comes in and bets player X 10 bucks that he will beat her in a single match on final destination, no items, 5 stock (yes, they unlocked everything already).

The match starts, and players X and Y are figuring out what the buttons do, and how to do certain moves. They start to fight now, and neither of them is trying to outsmart the other, because they are too focused on trying to hit each other. This is technical skill in development.

Player X wins by a nose, and Player Y is out of 10 bucks. Player Y then challanges her to another match, in hopes of getting his money back from the random chick that just beat him.

In the next match, Player Y picks up Player X's attack patterns, and starts to use his technical skill to counter attack. These are the mindgames. Player Y wins, and gets his precious money back.



The moral of the story is that you need to develop technical skill before you can initiate mindgames effectively. Which, IMO, puts technical skill above mindgames.

Yeah, i could have just said that, but i really felt like telling a good story about a guy winning back his 10 dollars. I'm gonna go write a book now.

 

[Grand Mango]

If you mention technical skill at its highest level, you have to mention mindgames at its greatest as well.

Now think about it, the ability to predict your opponents every move and manipulate them into doing what you want them in order to take advantage of their mistakes. That's every move. Now if you're manipulating them, basically they'll never hit you.

 

[A-Laon]

Tech skill is the ability to perform moves.
Mindgaming is the ability to make those moves matter.

They're equally important at a competitive level. If two players have equal tech skill, greater mindgames win. If two players are equally capable tactically, greater tech skill wins. gg.

 

[Baamage]

Well, without mindgames, the tech skills would be rather pointless because they are designed for mindgames in the first place. And without tech skills, there are not many mindgames to use.

So tech skill = mindgames.

 

[Wobbles]

Neither is more important than the other. They feed into one another and amplify the effects of the other, making both of them necessary for successful play.

If you are only capable of doing ONE attack and you can't move at all, then you are extremely limited. Your ability to fake me out and trick me is nullified because you have only a single option. I can simply use a technique that beats yours and you are unable to stop me.

In that instance, your ability to outthink me is negated by the fact that you have few options. If you can't move or execute or do anything at all, then what good is your mental game?

Let's look at the other extreme. You can always execute every maneuver perfectly, but you always do the same thing over and over again. If I am able to keep up with your speed, then I am at a major advantage; you relied on outmaneuvering me, and if you can't do that, you'll have to outthink me. If you have "no mindgames" to speak of, then you are as easy to beat as a computer.

The key to reconciling these two things is balance, and to understand these two principles:

1) Technicality gives you options.
2) Mindgames (and knowledge of the game, of course) lets you pick the right options.

If you can pick the right option and you can execute it flawlessly, you are a good player. If you pick the right thing and screw it up, or you do the wrong thing precisely, then you are a crippled player.

Even though I hate quoting Naruto, I'm going to repeat what somebody else in this thread quoted already: as Rock Lee said to Sasuke, "knowing what I am going to do is useless if you can't keep up." Being significantly faster than your opponent to the point that they can't respond gives you a huge edge.

The problem is that, just through practice, people can eliminate that edge that you have. Just by playing against somebody and training your own technical skill, you can (pretty quickly) step up to somebody else's technical level. Then suddenly the mental game is the deciding factor.

YOU NEED BOTH, AND NEITHER IS MORE IMPORTANT - END OF DISCUSSION.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Mindgames are way more important, and I'm proof of that.

 

[linkmastersword]

The moral of the story is that you need to develop technical skill before you can initiate mindgames effectively. Which, IMO, puts technical skill above mindgames.

Yeah, i could have just said that, but i really felt like telling a good story about a guy winning back his 10 dollars. I'm gonna go write a book now.

I agree entirely


clearly at the highest levels of play, like silent wolf was saying, mindgames matter more, because it's hard to distinguish between level of tech skill.

 

[ToP CaT]

mg>tech ,dnt be lame

 

[mog87]

I think you guys are just making stuff up .

 

[K.C. Cloud]

Lol How Many Times Is This Topic Going To Come Up?!

 

[pikachun00b7]

Tech. skill=Mindgames FACT!

 

[btk Ace]

Tech skill is the ability to perform moves.
Mindgaming is the ability to make those moves matter.

They're equally important at a competitive level. If two players have equal tech skill, greater mindgames win. If two players are equally capable tactically, greater tech skill wins. gg.

I Completley agree
They are Both important to the same extent
one doesnt really work without the other
having one wont get you past the first round in a tornment

 

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

Misty r u frikin kiddn me. u steal my post idea and name it a different title. comon these posts culd kept my thread going. BTW if ur in jersey i definatly wanna play u sometime. Try going to the TSA Bi-Weekly mad peoples is there.

 

[Red Exodus]

Technical skill and a good metagame is dumbed down in FFAs with items. Don't worry if you lose them, I've experienced a ton of loses in FFAs because there was too much to take in, no matter how good you react, something else will always come your way, especially if people realize you are a threat.

I just thought I'd fill those who didn't know.

 

[dReAMCloUd - Assault K 40]

Wow really, lowered the intelligence. Hmm, more like I don't give a **** about proper grammar in online posts and more about proper use of words. Technicality has next to nil to do with technique in the way it was used. Talk about intelligence ... And you don't know Drephen? That lowers your knowledge of smash by a whole bunch.

 

[Eggz]

"mindgames" are much deeper than tech skill. It is neccesary to be able to execute every technique with your character in order to be pro level. Once you can execute all of those actions, its just learning how to use them.

Like I said, mindgames arn't some tangible thing you can just instantly learn from someone else. "mindgames" is the term given to ones experience of the game, and ability to exploit peoples mistakes while avoiding making mistakes using said experience.

Wobbles covered everything else I was going to post.

 

[Eggz]

Wow I'm good. I accidently clicked quote instead of edit. My bad.

And you don't know Drephen? That lowers your knowledge of smash by a whole bunch.

Do you know VarietyBarrage, Sastopher, or Ka Master?

 

[dReAMCloUd - Assault K 40]

Yes, Yes, and Yes. None of which are very notable players might I add. Well, maybe satsopher, but not so much anymore, kinda fell off.

 

[BrTarolg]

personally, id say tactics > both tech AND mindgame

if a marth is fair spamming, no amount of mindgame or techskill will be able to beat that, simply because fair has close to no lag and so much range. even if you bait him, he will probably just get a free grab or hit after you dodge the first hit

you require a different tactic - maybe instead using projectiles, or using an aerial faster than fair. thats not a tech or a mindgame, thats a tactic.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

personally, id say tactics > both tech AND mindgame

if a marth is fair spamming, no amount of mindgame or techskill will be able to beat that, simply because fair has close to no lag and so much range. even if you bait him, he will probably just get a free grab or hit after you dodge the first hit

you require a different tactic - maybe instead using projectiles, or using an aerial faster than fair. thats not a tech or a mindgame, thats a tactic.

I would say that it falls under the "mindgame" category, actually.

There are things that will allow you to take advantage of any lag at all. There are ways to get your opponent to become lulled into a false sense of security. It can have him fall straight into an attack before he knew that he could actually be hit. That's the main purpose of mindgames; you catch your opponent off-guard. If you change your tactics, it's a mindgame of sorts. If you don't know how to switch into other tactics, then that's a technical factor that you need to learn, I think.

Personally, I think my technical skill is merely decent (which is to say, less than average compared to the community). However, I pride myself in being very proficient in mindgames. If I didn't have that skill, I would be considered a mediocre player by anyone's standards. I say knowledge of the game fits into the mindgame factor, as well. I think that the mindgame factor gives you a lot more to learn than the technical skill, and that's why I think that so many have chosen to specialize in technical ability. It's less to think about. Although they are both vitally important to become a skilled player, mindgames will take you further in the long run if you're able to become very knowledgable with them.

 

[linkmastersword]

Yes, Yes, and Yes. None of which are very notable players might I add. Well, maybe satsopher, but not so much anymore, kinda fell off.

I don't think you really know what you are talking about. They are all amazing players, and Ka Master is basically idolized in the luigi forums.

 

[MVPaintballer]

Sorry to bring back BS but the problem with trying to define him is how closely he fuses both mindgames and tech skill into a match. For him there is no line between mindgames and tech.

 

[dReAMCloUd - Assault K 40]

You mistake what I'm saying....have they won any major tourneys? NO. In the recent past.