"Technical skill"

[Han Solo]

I keep reading those words over and over across several threads. Once someone harnesses the magical powers of certain techniques with certain characters requiring absurd amounts of tech skill, they can overcome anything...or that's how it seems to read. Are there any examples of this kind of tech skill? Personally, I feel that when you get to a certain level of play, winning isn't a matter of tech skill. It's a matter of outmaneuvering your opponent and not making mistakes yourself. You don't see Falcons doing fastfall uairs from the side platforms on DL because it gives him any advantage. You don't see Rats constantly ledgecanceling up-b's to put themselves into better positions. That kind of tech skill isn't needed in this game.

 

[caneut]

Take fox for example, being able to move around and quickly chase an opponent, keeping up the combo without making a mistake is all tech.

 

[Sedda]

those advanced techs are not needed to win NOW, but if 64 ever gets advanced enough that high level falcons are doing ff uair off side plats and fox mains break your shield with shines every time, they will become necessary

kinda like in melee they're JUST starting to use shield dropping a lot. it's not even that difficult relatively speaking, but if you dont pick that skill up, you'll get left behind. you also have westballs destroying mango's shield with all those shines. he's never been that consistent with multishining like that in tourney, but when he's on, you can't hide in your shield.

 

[Han Solo]

Take fox for example, being able to move around and quickly chase an opponent, keeping up the combo without making a mistake is all tech.

This isn't very technical. Any good Fox player already does this. I want specific examples.

those advanced techs are not needed to win NOW, but if 64 ever gets advanced enough that high level falcons are doing ff uair off side plats and fox mains break your shield with shines every time, they will become necessary

kinda like in melee they're JUST starting to use shield dropping a lot. it's not even that difficult relatively speaking, but if you dont pick that skill up, you'll get left behind. you also have westballs destroying mango's shield with all those shines. he's never been that consistent with multishining like that in tourney, but when he's on, you can't hide in your shield.

Melee is a different game. What's a technique every character has in this game that no one utilizes?

Those techniques aren't examples of where the game is going. I'm saying the game will never need to get that advanced. Once you get an opening, taking a stock is pretty easy. The hard part is getting that opening.

 

[Sedda]

you can't really say that the game will never be that advanced. maybe you're right, but none of the advanced tech that you mentioned is unnecessary if it gives you some type of advantage, and they all do a lot of the time

 

[The Star King]

Semi agree.

I think there is some more technical stuff that can be developed but I also think that most metagame advancement will be tactical, not technical. Also depends on the character.

 

[Kirbstomper]

I agree with the OP, tech skill is overrated. I miss like 20% of my z cancels yet I still am widely considered one of the best players in North America

 

[felipe_9595]

Being technical is what makes the difference.

For example, mastering Pivot Utilt is what separates a decent kirby player from a really good kirby player.

 

[Shears]

I agree with the OP, tech skill is overrated. I miss like 20% of my z cancels yet I still am widely considered one of the best players in North America

Am I supposed to consider you one of the best players in North America? Because I don't.

But yeah, I agree with Star King. Its more tactics than techniques.

 

[Kirbstomper]

Am I supposed to consider you one of the best players in North America? Because I don't.

But yeah, I agree with Star King. Its more tactics than techniques.

I mean positive thoughts lead to positive results so get your vapid negativity out of my face

 

[Shears]

I mean positive thoughts lead to positive results so get your vapid negativity out of my face

Theres a difference between optimism and delusion.

 

[Cedricwa]

Tech skill is important though because it's what gets you to that level of play where it becomes options available to you as you're out spacing your opponent

 

[T Brett]

Being good and comfortable enough with tech skill gives you a variety of options in game for all characters and players. Not just for the flashiest combos, but to finish a stock efficiently, without whiffing on an opportunity

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I mean positive thoughts lead to positive results so get your vapid negativity out of my face

Not to be rude but I honestly don't recognize your name at all. The top 20 percent would be people who got top w/e at the highest level tournaments. Unless you're an alt account of I don't know bowl or Zenyore or something, I wouldn't put you that high either. Even if you are the top player within a group of 20 players, if no one knows, people won't exactly put you as a top player.

I barely consider myself top 40% (though I am not positive) of active players and I've gotten out of pools/made bracket at Apex/a bunch of other tournaments no one cares about. I mean top 20%, that would be maybe the top 40/50 people give or take out of all active 64 players.

 

[Han Solo]

Being technical is what makes the difference.

For example, mastering Pivot Utilt is what separates a decent kirby player from a really good kirby player.

Pivot uptilt isn't hard, it's already known, and every good Kirby already does it. There's no one who learned pivot uptilt and automatically started beating people way out of their league.

Tech skill is important though because it's what gets you to that level of play where it becomes options available to you as you're out spacing your opponent

Right, that's what I'm saying. Once you reach a certain level of tech skill, it's just more options for you. If these options have the same outcome (taking a stock), the smart player will go for the one with the least risk.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

It's the mix of use of tech skill and your movement/options/play. You can be a very generic non-technical player (like m2k for example) and still do really well in tournament just because your fundamentals are stupid good. Though this does not work as well for more technical characters (like Ness for example.)

 

[Mr Bushido]

>m2k not technical

 

[Kahnu]

I agree with the OP, tech skill is overrated. I miss like 20% of my z cancels yet I still am widely considered one of the best players in North America

 

[Kirbstomper]

Haha fine, you caught me. It may be more like 25%

 

[Kahnu]

Haha fine, you caught me. It may be more like 25%

yet I still am widely considered one of the best players in North America

I am the best player in North America

 

[Combo Blaze]

Just because something becomes so common to you that you don't even realize you're doing it doesn't mean it's not technical anymore. Mastering your tech is just as important as mastering your spacing/zone of control. Most of the NA scene still has its way to go before we get to that point though.

 

[BananaBolts]

I think tech skill is a necessity for increasing your options in neutral and combo extensions.

I'm currently working on double jumping to the top platform to get no impact landing (Falcon). While it's not the easiest thing to do consistently and it's reward is small, it opens up some faster movement and may even allow me to approach safer in certain situations. If I can get consistent with it, I'll open up a few mix up options. I could land on the top plat and shield drop ff aerial, or I could dash dance on top plat to fake an approach, or I could bait an approach and punish, or I could pivot ff aerial. There's probably more but that's a bit off of the top of my head.

"Tech skill" can be as simple as perfect landing to speed up your gameplay.

 

[caneut]

Tech skill could be as simple as landing from a fast fall and moving as fast (when landinglag ends) as fast as possible. frames matter

 

[Kirbstomper]

In this game one tech slip up can leave you vulnerable and lose it for you, so I'd say tech skill is important in that you need to be able to make your character do what your mind wants it to do. While some people might try to separate tech skill and 'mental playing ability' such as spacing and whatnot, I've never thought the two are actually exclusive. For example someone may be open to a running plat drop aerial, but if you can't do that tech (like yours truly) then you won't even think to do it. As @ BananaBolts mentioned, tech skill can improve your mental game by simply increasing the amount of options you have.

 

[Han Solo]

So everything that has been mentioned is not currently being used in the metagame? Let me rephrase my question. What techniques CAN be done by characters but are NOT being done by players?

 

[Kirbstomper]

So everything that has been mentioned is not currently being used in the metagame? Let me rephrase my question. What techniques CAN be done by characters but are NOT being done by players?

Keep in mind not everyone can do every technique in the metagame. I.E I'd be a lot better if I never missed z cancels and was faster at pivot up tilts with kirby

 

[Han Solo]

Keep in mind not everyone can do every technique in the metagame.

I don't know what you're trying to say. Let me be even more specific. People have said that Fox, Ness, Yoshi, and Link are a lot better than they currently are in the tier list. I've seen people say Fox is the best in the game. What techniques CAN be done by these characters but are NOT being done by the players that use them? It's not a question about people not being able to perform certain moves. It's a question about what moves help a character that aren't being used assuming the player has the tech skill to perform said moves.

 

[Kirbstomper]

Oh I see what you're saying, sorry for the confusion bud.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I don't know what you're trying to say. Let me be even more specific. People have said that Fox, Ness, Yoshi, and Link are a lot better than they currently are in the tier list. I've seen people say Fox is the best in the game. What techniques CAN be done by these characters but are NOT being done by the players that use them? It's not a question about people not being able to perform certain moves. It's a question about what moves help a character that aren't being used assuming the player has the tech skill to perform said moves.

What if Fox was able to perfectly shine shield break, making it so people literally would be unable to shield vs. one of the characters in the game with amazing pressure otherwise. It's not just using a move, it's using it perfectly.

I don't find that about Link. People might say that Link is amazing but let's face it, he has a whole lot of problems

In terms of Yoshi/Ness it's well known, parries and perfect DJCs for Yoshi and DJCs/perfect DJLs for Ness .

 

[Kahnu]

I don't know what you're trying to say. Let me be even more specific. People have said that Fox, Ness, Yoshi, and Link are a lot better than they currently are in the tier list. I've seen people say Fox is the best in the game. What techniques CAN be done by these characters but are NOT being done by the players that use them? It's not a question about people not being able to perform certain moves. It's a question about what moves help a character that aren't being used assuming the player has the tech skill to perform said moves.

NONE
god

 

[BananaBolts]

I don't know if you can really look at too many tech skill things and say that nobody is using them. As Koro kinda said, it's more like they aren't perfect or they will use something sub optimal 'cause it's easier. I think a lot of it comes down to perfection particularly in movement and first frame actions.

 

[Han Solo]

What if Fox was able to perfectly shine shield break, making it so people literally would be unable to shield vs. one of the characters in the game with amazing pressure otherwise. It's not just using a move, it's using it perfectly.

I don't find that about Link. People might say that Link is amazing but let's face it, he has a whole lot of problems

In terms of Yoshi/Ness it's well known, parries and perfect DJCs for Yoshi and DJCs/perfect DJLs for Ness .

You're talking about perfection. I'm talking about the next level of tech skill, where the metagame could be in the future, not where it could be given someone was frame-perfect all the time. Fox being able to shine-shield-break every single time opens about as many options as Yoshi, Ness, and Kirby being able to shield break every single time (which is basically already being done). It's great, and it is probably game-changing, but not in the sense that you think. Shield isn't that valuable of a tool that breaking it is an auto-win. You can still beat a Kirby that shield breaks you every time. So, if you'll believe me that breaking a shield every single time won't guarantee your victory, then why even attempt it if it's so hard to do?

Perfect DJCs and DJLs are already done by Ness mains. Ness mains still lose.

Parries and DJC armor for Yoshi on the other hand is definitely worth a mention. Hitting someone where the hit does nothing and you're left in hitlag open for a counterattack is amazing. It should definitely be used by every single Yoshi main...maybe that's why Yoshi has moved up on basically every person's tier list in the last year? People are finally seeing Yoshi for the defensive juggernaut he's always been.

So what other moves for other characters can be done so that they'll win more? I believe that you're not going to find many more things past the current metagame.

 

[Combo Blaze]

You argued that certain skills/skills aren't needed in this game yet you question what techs cane be done so they'll win. Obviously if both players are able to space themselves well then the person with the better tech skills that allows them to make better approaches will get the advantage.

The argument that you made in your first post and the one you're making now are different.

So what other moves for other characters can be done so that they'll win more? I believe that you're not going to find many more things past the current metagame.

Obviously these techs.

You don't see Falcons doing fastfall uairs from the side platforms on DL because it gives him any advantage. You don't see Rats constantly ledgecanceling up-b's to put themselves into better positions.

 

[felipe_9595]

Pivot uptilt isn't hard, it's already known, and every good Kirby already does it. There's no one who learned pivot uptilt and automatically started beating people way out of their league.


Right, that's what I'm saying. Once you reach a certain level of tech skill, it's just more options for you. If these options have the same outcome (taking a stock), the smart player will go for the one with the least risk.

Uhm, no?? CONSISTENTLY tilting your stick out of a pivot to a 33% motion isn't what you call easy. If all, is as hard as FF Uairs from the border and that's not easy at all.

And i never implied that. But a player who can execute it consistently correctly will destroy another one with the same relative knowledge but that cannot perform it correctly, i can assure you that.

 

[Han Solo]

There are moves in this game that require absurd amounts of tech skill and they leave little benefit (Falcon fastfall uair from side platform). There are moves that require absurd amounts of tech skill, and they leave medium benefit (Fox shine shield break, pikachu ledgecanceling up-bs for movement).

I don't want to hear about these. They're too high risk or there's not much benefit compared to how hard it is to do them. I want to hear about moves that require a level of tech skill that is feasible in the next few years, but also change the way the game is played. Yoshis consistently parrying is feasible. Are there any more?

Uhm, no?? CONSISTENTLY tilting your stick out of a pivot to a 33% motion isn't what you call easy. If all, is as hard as FF Uairs from the border and that's not easy at all.

And i never implied that. But a player who can execute it consistently correctly will destroy another one with the same relative knowledge but that cannot perform it correctly, i can assure you that.

It's not that hard. Killer (on keyboard) does it pretty much every time. Revan is also really good at it. Does this mean they'll beat Kikoushi or Moyashi, who IIRC, rarely use pivot uptilt? If you told me Player A using Kirby can pivot uptilt and Player B using Kirby cannot, and they were of relative skill levels, I wouldn't say Player A has a distinct advantage.

 

[SheerMadness]

I know it's melee but westballz advancing Falco metagame through insane shield pressure?

I mean the guy did that to mango's shield almost every time he touched it and completely overwhelmed him.

I think there are certainly some technical aspects of ssb64 that we have yet to master and could potentially advance/alter the metagame. Not as many as melee but they are out there.

We just a need a 20xx hack like melee.

 

[felipe_9595]

There are moves in this game that require absurd amounts of tech skill and they leave little benefit (Falcon fastfall uair from side platform). There are moves that require absurd amounts of tech skill, and they leave medium benefit (Fox shine shield break, pikachu ledgecanceling up-bs for movement).

I don't want to hear about these. They're too high risk or there's not much benefit compared to how hard it is to do them. I want to hear about moves that require a level of tech skill that is feasible in the next few years, but also change the way the game is played. Yoshis consistently parrying is feasible. Are there any more?



It's not that hard. Killer (on keyboard) does it pretty much every time. Revan is also really good at it. Does this mean they'll beat Kikoushi or Moyashi, who IIRC, rarely use pivot uptilt? If you told me Player A using Kirby can pivot uptilt and Player B using Kirby cannot, and they were of relative skill levels, I wouldn't say Player A has a distinct advantage.

Because in keyboard is incredible easy, you can buffer it holding up in the middle of any action that leaves you in the standing animation (Hold up after a Jab, Lcancel, Land, etc), then you only need to pivot and press a while holding up. That's the reason a lot of kirby mains (including myslef) only play him in Keyboard.

And the skill gap between those examples is incredible high. If the skill gap were less, yes, that's exactly what i am implying. Player A has a distinct advantage over Player B who doesn't know how to pivot utilt (Obviously, knowing how to do it doesnt makes you automatically better, if you don't have a knowledge about spacing then it will not matter, but at high levels pivot utilting opens a new world regarding the control of space)

I can give you a ton of examples in the Chilean community, but i will use another one. I am currently third at Smash Ladder in 64, and i can assure you it's because i can consistently pivot utilt and apply it when i need to do it (I play with 8 frames in the florida server while the rest plays with 3-4. Even with the 4-5 frames disadvantage i still win a lot of games because how insanely good a pivot utilt is, when used correctly)

 

[SSBPete]

So everything that has been mentioned is not currently being used in the metagame? Let me rephrase my question. What techniques CAN be done by characters but are NOT being done by players?

DI. Most players have terrible to average DI. Even the best players don't DI optimally all the time. It's a technique that has huge room for improvement by almost all players. It's still surprising/impressive when someone reverse ledge DI's but ideally it should be done every time you DI from the ledge. It's hard to perform but a real possibility for players to have that ability in the near future. Even combo DI can be vastly improved too.

 

[Studstill]

I keep reading those words over and over across several threads. Once someone harnesses the magical powers of certain techniques with certain characters requiring absurd amounts of tech skill, they can overcome anything...or that's how it seems to read. Are there any examples of this kind of tech skill? Personally, I feel that when you get to a certain level of play, winning isn't a matter of tech skill. It's a matter of outmaneuvering your opponent and not making mistakes yourself. You don't see Falcons doing fastfall uairs from the side platforms on DL because it gives him any advantage. You don't see Rats constantly ledgecanceling up-b's to put themselves into better positions. That kind of tech skill isn't needed in this game.

Well put, Han.
I`d agree on DI, but only in the physicality of actually performing it.

Pivot uptilt isn't hard, it's already known, and every good Kirby already does it. There's no one who learned pivot uptilt and automatically started beating people way out of their league.

I don`t. I mean, I don`t rely or commonly use pivoting to uptilt as a ground approach.
More to the point/OP:
There are people who use this or other 'techniques' to beat people 'out of their league', but these are either online or over very few games.
The tactically (I like that, @ The Star King ) superior player will be able to read and outspace/beat those approaches as easily as any other.

 

[Han Solo]

From cobr_evolution to @ felipe_9595 :

"you're not winning cuz you're pivot utilting. you're winning cuz your opposition is playing on high frames. simple. "