• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Teaching Children Melee 9: Video Update 3

KoopaTroopa895

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
138
Dun listen to Fuujin, he's just mad cuz he mains Zelda :yeahboi:

Also, regular Link is bad too, he's even worse than Mario. Definately try to get TL unlocked for him. Ike isn't all that great, but he's a favorite of mine as well. At first glance he seems really OP cuz his strengths are so great. Upon closer examination into higher level play, you'll find that his weaknesses are pretty glaring. He's definately usable at a high level, but only really amazing players actually do well with him.
Well right now they are really just playing casually, it has been less than a week. So they are just messing around in story mode and all that. There enjoying themselves, that is all that really matters right now.

My little brother and sister play Melee with me, they are just getting basic tech stuff right now.

And yeah don't listen to Fuujin, Melee is getting a lot of new players and it will be here for years to come.

:phone:
That's awesome dude, glad too see I am not the only one, I think construct was also teaching his little brother. My little brothers are still getting the basics as well, if they come back from brawl. Chances are I will have to reteach them some stuff XD

teaching melee is hard, and people get frustrated. I think you should let them play brawl and if they want to be good you should be there to help. but dont force anything.
Sometimes I get frustrated with melee. Right now it might be because I am playing with CPU's, but I just can't get spacing down for the life of me. Not even basic spacing that works. Well no matter what I would try and help them for little things with Brawl. But I am pretty uneducated as far as Brawl goes. But you are right, no matter what I don't want to force them, although I do miss playing with them. Fox CPU's are annoying to play with.

You should get the kids Project M eventually.
I might, I am sure it is not that hard to get. Just too lazy to check =P
 

KoopaTroopa895

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
138
Teaching children melee 7?
They are playing a lot of brawl lately XD They finished subspace emm...adventure mode =P They are playing more melee last day or two, I just don't have a whole lot to say. Almost do though, give it a couple of days and i'll write something. But they were playing brawl since they had just gotten it, sorry for the delay. Good to see people are enjoying this blog though
 

KoopaTroopa895

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
138
and thus the thread has died
Far from dead yet my friend. I recorded some matches with the kids today, I was going to talk about them today. But I figured I'd wait till I have everything render and uploaded so tomorrow there will definitely be an update. I enjoy doing this far too much to just let it die so easily XD

EDIT: So I will do a post tomorrow, I am uploading the fights I had, issue is is that I uploaded the wrong one for the second video. So I'll just get it done tomorrow, Happy Memorial Day to anybody out there =D
 

KoopaTroopa895

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
138
Teaching Children Melee 7: Video =D

So to cut it short I ended up giving up on the idea of teaching them spacing. Tried to show Christian, didn't work out too well XD So I figured showing a video would be a nice way to figure out what I should do next. So we'll start with Adrian. But before we start I wanna say I recorded a bit more than I did last time. So I didn't hand pick which ones we did better on I just uploaded all of them, I figured it would be much more apparent how horrible we actually are(not that it wasn't obvious anyways).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMUrFijFU2g

As far as Adrian goes, he doesn't excessively dash attack anymore. So that is definitely a plus. I still think he doesn't do enough air attacks. Also his edgeguarding can use some work. I guess in his defense he hasn't gotten a whole lot of practice lately. The only big thing I hope he stops doing is C spamming. from 7:26 to 7:34 he did nothing but try and smash attack me. Also it doesn't show it as bad as the videos. But he jumps off the edge to kill me and dies due to using his Fair. Also he needs to pill a bit more, he only throws pills when I throw fireballs. And every time he does, I end up giving up because I start taking WAY more damage than I am giving out. I don't think Adrian made a whole lot of progress through this month, while he has learned a decent amount. He sticks to the same way of fighting as he did before. This might also be because of his new mentality that "im gonna lose" everytime he starts playing a game. But I digress, he is 7 and the youngest one in my family. Also I am pretty sure everybody has there limit somewhere anyways. Moving onto Christian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clNM2cJUZsk

Remember how Christian did nothing but roll around smash attacking all the damn time, well his new thing is down smash AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. That move is pretty easy too see coming too. Also on the first two matches he didn't use projectiles a whole lot, he did in the beginning of the first match. But after that he just stopped completely. He had this crazy idea that I was reading his mind and that I knew his next move. But honestly, he doesn't do that bad when he is consistently throwing both his bombs and boomerang. I think he underestimates the pressure that it puts on your opponent. he almost beat me the third match, he did a hell of a job taking out my second stock that round.

As for me, I Fsmash a bit more than I should be. During Christian's matches I was trying to Fsmash to punish him for down smashing too much. Kinda backfired since he was able to get off a second one sometimes. I should have just sucked it up and down smashed him for it. My wavedashes leave me too vulnerable at times, also my L-cancelling on my Uair needs work as well. Unfortunately it is hard for me to spot habits of mine and my little brothers, had to watch the video like 3 times just to get this much. In any case that is all for this blog, if anybody found something else please let me know.

PS: This is the first video back from Teaching Children Melee 4. Just in case anybody wants to see it(were even worse than now though).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ljWlRizcKo
 

JU4N

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
83
Just wanted to post that I think this is a really interesting project, and to keep it up!
 

Sinji

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
3,370
Location
Brooklyn New York
NNID
Sinjis
3DS FC
0361-6602-9839
This is a good idea. I have a cousin that lives with me and he is 9 years old. He plays melee with me and mains falco, I'm teaching him the basics but sometimes he gets frustrated. lol Its a hard task but it will pay off in the future.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,345
"Remember how Christian did nothing but roll around smash attacking all the damn time, well his new thing is down smash AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE."

This could be the future of a peach player lol Anyway...

Spacing will probably come with time. And as for sticking to a particular move far more than any other, I think that might be a habit that will stick with you forever. Always picking the same option (move) in a particular instant likely won't be easy to change. It'll likely be you switch over to using better options, but still get hard wired into choosing the same selection of moves a lot of the time.
 

Sinji

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
3,370
Location
Brooklyn New York
NNID
Sinjis
3DS FC
0361-6602-9839
^ True that. When I started at age 11 I only used shine OOS with fox and it became a bad habit for me. then i used more options like wavedsh oos or naif oos e.t.c.
 

#HBC | Joker

Space Marine
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
3,864
Location
St. Clair Shores, Michigan
NNID
HBCJoker
3DS FC
1864-9780-3232
You guys really have improved. I like seeing the random wavedashes and stuff, shows that you've got the muscle memory down and you're starting to incorporate it into your game. Most of what you guys need to work on is mixups, cuz you all kinda just repeat the same stuff all the time. Christian even got a hard read on you one game just cuz he knew you were gonna roll from the ledge, so he just waited to dsmash you :p

You vs Adrian:
I noticed you guys both use fair kinda excessively. Mario's fair is only useful for offstage spiking (it's best used as a mixup cuz it's easy to avoid when you see it coming, so don't make it your goto edgeguard habit). Doc's fair is a useful KO move both on and offstage, but it's not that great for dmg racking cuz of the long windup. Adrian whiffed a lot of fairs when he should have been using nair, or even dair. Mario's dair is pretty boss too, that's generally my goto approach aerial with him, nair for doc. Also, midrange projectiles guys. You're both still mostly just using them in projectile battles from a distance. You're in each other's faces for the whole fight, so you never pull out the fireballs/pills even tho they're still really usefil at close and midrange. Tell Adrian to work on grabbing too. He hit your shield and got grabbed by you a lot when he could easily have gotten the grab first. Also, ledge options for both of you. All you guys do is roll from the ledge. Mix it up, you can occasionally jump from there, or ledgehop (this is when you hit down to drop off the ledge, then use your doublejump to get on stage. You can throw out aerials during it to make it a bit safer). Even getup attack from ledge every once in awhile.

You vs Christian:
Lolz, so much dsmash. Other than the lack of move variety, he's really improved a lot. I think I even saw him wavedashing around onstage, so kudos to him! Mostly, I think he's playing very well, he just needs to do other moves. Most of the dsmashes he threw out should have been ftilts. Even one dsmash I saw him throw out should have been a utilt cuz you were above him O_o Overall though I loved his use of the boomerang at midrange. He only got it off a few times, but when he did he'd pop you with the boomerang, then follow up with an attack. It was beautiful and I wanna see more of it, he can even follow up that boomerang with an arrow at longer ranges. If he could just start mixing up his ground attacks more with ftilit, utilt, fsmash and dsmash he'll be on the right track. His ledge game had more mixups than you or Adrian, he even landed a ledgehopped UpB on you in game3, which I kinda liked. UpB, however, isn't a great option though cuz if he missed, it's laggy. Have him practice ledgehopping with nair/fair. He needs to be a bit more aggressive at edgeguarding too. He doesn't even have to go offstage if he's worried about killing himself, cuz YL has one of the most fun onstage edgeguarding tools in the game. If you time it just right, dtilt can spike someone down just as they try to grab the ledge! That dtilt is literally the only reason I ever bother using Young Link over adult Link :) Also, when you guys are recovering low with your Mario recoveries, he can throw out projectiles to really mess you up. Even if you cape it, he can keep the pressure on you with no pressure to himself. If anyone makes a mistake in that situation, you can bet it won't be him paying for it.
 

KoopaTroopa895

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
138
@JU4N Thank you I am glad you think so.

@FoxBlaze71 Actually laughed out loud a little when I read that XD

@crush Rewatching those videos you are absolutely right. I was almost able to count how many times I didn't Fsmash Dsmash and fire ball with one hand. I didn't even notice.

@Sinji They definitely get frustrated sometimes, I wish you and your cousin luck with it.

@Xeylode I know what you mean when it is just like instinct to do a move. At one point I was hellbent on always dash cancelling to Dsmash with Mario. Even Christian picked up on it and would simply shield grab me.

@PrivateJoker-Brown Always enjoy your input dude, recovery is definitely something I would enjoy helping them with. Taking off the Fair's from me and Adrian will be something I point out as well. You and Crush always give me some feedback as well and I appreciate that. I suck too you know, I want to be evaluated as well =P
 

#HBC | Joker

Space Marine
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
3,864
Location
St. Clair Shores, Michigan
NNID
HBCJoker
3DS FC
1864-9780-3232
It's harder to spot mistakes when everything you do works out for you :p The overuse of fair applies to you too though, as well as lack of fireballs. Mario's Dair is actually a pretty good approach aerial if you wanna hop over a grounded opponent. Most of your fairs should've been either dairs or nairs, but you ended up landing them on Adrian cuz he's 7 and doesn't read the long windup, then he copies what you did and it doesn't work out for him.

With the fireballs, just try to begin/end all your combos with them. Like when you get those Grab>dthrow>uair strings, try throwing a fireball in the direction they DI away, then resume chasing them. Just cuz your first fireball doesn't land doesn't mean you gotta throw more. Every time I see you use it, you just end up spamming it for a few seconds and it just turns into a fireball vs pill/boomerang/arrow battle. Spamming them can be fine when you're landing hits, so it's not like that should never happen, it's just that opponents with stronger options, like Adrian with his pills, will beat it.

Ledge options too. You always roll from the ledge, and even your brothers have picked up on this. Ledgehop>uair/nair works well for Mario, even a ledgehopped fireball can work, or getup attacks. Getting off the ledge is all about mixups, cuz it's impossible for your opponent to be prepared for everything all at once. Remember, you haven't recovered just cuz you made it to the ledge, you gotta get back on stage without getting smacked away again.

I enjoy helping you guys out. Reminds me of when I started out :)
 

KoopaTroopa895

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
138
It's harder to spot mistakes when everything you do works out for you :p The overuse of fair applies to you too though, as well as lack of fireballs. Mario's Dair is actually a pretty good approach aerial if you wanna hop over a grounded opponent. Most of your fairs should've been either dairs or nairs, but you ended up landing them on Adrian cuz he's 7 and doesn't read the long windup, then he copies what you did and it doesn't work out for him.

With the fireballs, just try to begin/end all your combos with them. Like when you get those Grab>dthrow>uair strings, try throwing a fireball in the direction they DI away, then resume chasing them. Just cuz your first fireball doesn't land doesn't mean you gotta throw more. Every time I see you use it, you just end up spamming it for a few seconds and it just turns into a fireball vs pill/boomerang/arrow battle. Spamming them can be fine when you're landing hits, so it's not like that should never happen, it's just that opponents with stronger options, like Adrian with his pills, will beat it.

Ledge options too. You always roll from the ledge, and even your brothers have picked up on this. Ledgehop>uair/nair works well for Mario, even a ledgehopped fireball can work, or getup attacks. Getting off the ledge is all about mixups, cuz it's impossible for your opponent to be prepared for everything all at once. Remember, you haven't recovered just cuz you made it to the ledge, you gotta get back on stage without getting smacked away again.

I enjoy helping you guys out. Reminds me of when I started out :)
I have seen DJ nintendo use the Dair very well, I would use it at the wrong time though, so Christian would just Nair me. I will say that I haven't put much work into the Dair though, occasionally throwing it in to see if it works. Should probably practice it on my own time. You are right about fireballs, I feel like I should hit them at least once before I keep things going, and since fireballs aren't the most reliable projectile. It makes me want to shoot out more of them, rather than just occasionally throwing one to put more pressure on them.

As for recovery all 3 of us need to work on that. I think Christian has been playing a lot of level 9's on his own time. Because he rolls back on the stage more than any other recovery. Just today it was easy to read and I got a couple of good F smashes on him. Actually tried teaching him a little about recoveries, I stopped midway. Because I didn't no how to explain it, ended up giving a pretty terrible explanation XD Planning on bouncing back with a better explanation when I find the correct way to put it, I have trouble explaining things that are more of reading the situation. I had a hard time explaining edgeguarding too, although it is definitely easier than explaining recoveries. It seems that they would get better with recoveries, edgeguarding, and spacing with experience. That goes for me too of course(I am pretty terrible in all 3 of those things).

However while there is no for sure way for everything, I want to at least find a sort of recommended move for certain settings...I think, I am still sorta figuring it out myself. That is why I don't plan on explaining it until I fully know what I am talking about. Otherwise I might give another crappy explanation.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Ive got a fun game for christian. KoopaTroopa, You need to learn how to play a teeny bit of jigglypuff. just enough to play against christian in the way to help him. Basically, take him to a big stage like dreamland, go jiggs, and tell him to try and camp as hard as he can. come at him and read him, and see if he plays aggresive which he shouldn't, or if he actually camps correctly. how well he can do against this can prove how he can camp. Just a game, you dont have to try this.
 

#HBC | Joker

Space Marine
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
3,864
Location
St. Clair Shores, Michigan
NNID
HBCJoker
3DS FC
1864-9780-3232
Ledgehopping is my default tactic from the ledge, cuz it's generally the quickest and hardest to punish. I only mix up to something else if I think they're expecting that, which generally means they're standing really close to the ledge. A getup attack will usually work, or even a roll. I almost never jump from the ledge unless I'm on battlefield and I wanna get on the platforms. You're right though, knowing when to use mixups is something that comes with time and experience. For now, I'd recomend teaching them to ledgehop. Just hit down, so you drop off the ledge, then immediately use your double jump. This will put you at just about the right height to land on stage. You can use an aerial to smack away edgeguard attempts, or an air dodge. Air dodging out of this is really hard to punish, especially if you waveland it. Try it out.
 

Lovage

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 15, 2007
Messages
6,746
Location
STANKONIA CA
dude that lil mario dude is sick LOL

edit: i just realized, if UR the mario this thread is a piece of **** lol
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
LMAO hes the mario. He never said he was good, he just wanted to encourage some kids.
 

KoopaTroopa895

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
138
dude that lil mario dude is sick LOL

edit: i just realized, if UR the mario this thread is a piece of **** lol
haha yeah they can only get as good as those who are better than them, and sadly I am the only one they've got XD So if there is any reason for them to not be good it's mine. I am going to try and take them to a tournament in temple city in a couple of weeks, let them a broader sense of how big of the competition there is.

@PrivateJoker-Brown Yeah I will be sure to work on ledge hogging when I can. Wavedashing off the ledge is something I am still working, have a bad habit of doing it to early and SD'ing.

Also in case you guys are wondering why there hasn't been a new entry, it is because Adrian lent his controller to my cousin, my cousin bribed him with rare pokemon. Shortly after that the crappy controller broke, which means we only have one gamecube controller at the moment. So were at a bit of a jam, surprisingly the kids keep coming in and borrowing my controller in order to play melee. Which shows they are still interested in the game. On the up side due to the fact that I don't usually ask my mom for favors related to money, all 3 of us are getting new controllers(yes even Adrian who got a new one about a month ago). Were getting a white controller, I believe ZachAttax64 recommended it a while back. It should come sometime this week, I probably won't be asking any favors for a while though, mom was pretty generous on this one.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846
Anyways in the meantime does anybody know some sort of practice we could do on our own. Tech is an option, but I want to see if there are more possibilities available. And computers only take you so far(I try to avoid training with them anyways).
 

KoopaTroopa895

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
138
So we got new controllers today, and theres 8 days left until the tournament in temple city, so expect some posts soon, sorry school was ending and I myself was pretty busy with finals.
 

#HBC | Joker

Space Marine
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
3,864
Location
St. Clair Shores, Michigan
NNID
HBCJoker
3DS FC
1864-9780-3232
So we got new controllers today, and theres 8 days left until the tournament in temple city, so expect some posts soon, sorry school was ending and I myself was pretty busy with finals.
Just make sure they realize that just because they don't do well at the tournament, that doesn't mean they suck and will never get better. Everyone always wants to be some prodigy who comes out of nowhere and beats everyone. That **** never happens, you actually have to put time in before you get good.
 

FoxBlaze71

Smash Lord
Joined
May 24, 2011
Messages
1,946
Location
MI
Seeing little kids play in an actual tourney should be interesting, to say the least. Try to get some of the annhilation matches uploaded.
 

KoopaTroopa895

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
138
Ok so unfortunately we apparently can't go to the tournament this Saturday. My one year old baby nephew is getting some sort of SUPER party or something. And there is no way I can say were not going to the party. It is rather irritating, I have been wanting to go to a tournament for a month now and it sucks when such a perfect opportunity is wasted. Need to find a smashfest really badly. In any case even though we aren't going to the tournament at the very least I figured i'd update there progress.

Teaching Children Melee 8: HORRIBLE Realizations and Recoveries

The last couple of days we've gone out to work on recoveries. Unfortunately for me and Adrian there wasn't a whole lot of work that could be done as far as optimization. While we both try neither of us can tap the B button fast enough for the Mario tornado to be of any use. It's actually pretty sad but for some reason I have never been able to smash a button quickly, maybe I am missing something but it has always been something that just never really worked for me. Also for some reason I cannot get Mario's super jump punch(up B) to wall jump to consistently work for me, I have trouble with the timing. And while I get it every once in awhile, it seems like a good advantage that would be nice to pull off whenever I want.

As for Christian he is trying to implement the hookshot when he can, he apparently didn't know that you could air dodge and then use the hookshot. I could have sworn he knew how to though. He likes edge hogging, and whether he knows it or not beating him on Yoshi's story has become harder. Partially due to my inexperience with edgehogging, I have no real offense for that kind of thing other than waiting it out, I dunno if there really is a sure fire way of attacking while he is edgehogging anyways.

All three of us are working to mix up our recoveries. I showed them both the whole double jump to Nair thing when your on an edge. Christian had a hard time at first but eventually he managed to get enough height to pull out a nair with young link. I got it after a bit as well, I thought about showing the way you wavedash back on to the stage from the ledge. But I myself don't feel confident enough to teach it or execute it consitently, so I won't teach them yet. Plus right now being able to attack from the edge seems more essential right now.

Adrian's main problem was that he kept trying to hit back on the control stick then jump then go right all on the control stick. So he would keep going backwards while doing his double jump not giving him enough momentum to do anything but land back on the edge about 70% of the time. When he tried to use the X and Y buttons he would hit the A button, at first this I thought this was because the gamestop controller actually did have a smaller A button and a bulkier X button. That may be one of the factors, but literally while writing this it just clicked in my head and last blogs video of me and him fighting confirmed it. Adrian DOESN'T SHORT HOP.....AT ALL. Literally all of those matches he short hopped 0 times, I have been trying to teach him all this other stuff and I completely overlooked something as basic as him applying a damn short hop. It was no wonder he had so much trouble on it. I kept telling him to stop using the control stick. But he kept going back to it, and this is probably why. Shorthopping with the X button is WAY easier than trying to use the control stick to do it. I can assume that lack of practice with the X button has made him want to do this move with the control stick. Even if he did manage to do this with a control stick, this is way beyond this recovery thing. Short hops are literally baby steps into learning smash bros at a competitive level. I know he can short hop too. When we first started out the "Advanced techniques" I would make him short hop 3 times in a row before we would start a match. Anyways I don't want to rant on about it too long, there were multiple clues leading to this, and I am typing this just after finding this out so I am pretty angry with myself. There is no easy way to break out of a habit like this either, which really sucks for him. This is probably my first major screw up trying to teach them. I mean I screw up a lot, but I didn't think something like this could get by me since I am the one playing with him all this time.

In any case past recoveries and this short hop incident, I did some research on young link mains. This was a bit overdue, but I tried to find a good amount of young link videos Christian reference to. I ended up finding the following: D20, KS136, CHAiN-ACE, Ocean, Ninjalink(best resource), Dark. PCH, and Jash. Some are better than the other, but finding a lot of youtube videos of young link mains is definitely good for Christian. Going to find some more Doc's for Adrian. Thankfully that won't be nearly as time consuming as finding young links.

It is crazy that I have been doing this for almost two months now, it has felt really long despite it actually being a fairly short amount of time. I appreciate all the help I have been getting, you guys are awesome =D Probably try and get a video up on Teaching Children Melee 9, look forward to it. Although this month has flown by, so don't expect staggering progress XD
 

#HBC | Joker

Space Marine
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
3,864
Location
St. Clair Shores, Michigan
NNID
HBCJoker
3DS FC
1864-9780-3232
If you guys are hitting back on the joystick to drop off the ledge, that's probably why you're struggling with it. Hit DOWN. Down from the ledge and away from the ledge are 2 different actions, and away from the ledge I would imagine puts you too far from the ledge to land on stage easily with your double jump. Just hit down on the joystick, then immediately up on it, or down and immediately x/y.

(weird tangent) I'm left handed so jumping with the joystick feels more comfortable to me, and I only use X for short hops. I do things weird tho, so whatever inputs net successful results, go for it. Ppl used to tell me weird stuff like "you should be hitting L to wavedash, not R" and "dun jump with the joystick, it's a bad habit". I never listened to either of those things and I can play just fine, so figure out what works for them. As long as it works.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
L for wavedash? lmao, I only use R. I also find y to be easier to short hop with, not x. The analog stick does sound like a hard habit to break, but its possible. Dont ever buy 3rd party controllers again btw, the controllers you guys just got from amazon should be enough. Also something to note, If your analog sticks become horrible, you can replace them with the nunchuck analog stick. I did that to an old one that was chewed up and now it works perfect, but you need an uncommon screw driver.
 

Spyro

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 6, 2011
Messages
639
Location
Gallatin,Tennessee
If you guys are hitting back on the joystick to drop off the ledge, that's probably why you're struggling with it.
I actually use back to drop of the ledge and I consider myself to we a fairly technical player. I use back cause you don't fast fall like you do when you hit down. I just quickly do it and quickly let of of it so I don't get away far from the ledge.

L for wavedash?

It does not really matter if they use L or R, it's just a personal perefance.

BTW Koopa, it is easier to wavedash OoS (out of shield) if you use one button to shield and the other to wavedash with.

:phone:
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
I used to use C-stick back to drop from the edge, and then either jump with Y (using my right index finger for the Y-input) or up on the joystick. That's another good and pretty easy way, although really pretty much anything should be easy if you practice enough.
 

KoopaTroopa895

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
138
(weird tangent) I'm left handed so jumping with the joystick feels more comfortable to me, and I only use X for short hops. I do things weird tho, so whatever inputs net successful results, go for it. Ppl used to tell me weird stuff like "you should be hitting L to wavedash, not R" and "dun jump with the joystick, it's a bad habit". I never listened to either of those things and I can play just fine, so figure out what works for them. As long as it works.
Funny I am actually left handed as well. Probably explains why I am so horrible at smashing the b button for the Mario tornado.


BTW Koopa, it is easier to wavedash OoS (out of shield) if you use one button to shield and the other to wavedash with.
:phone:
I don't think I actually wavedash OoS very often, I should get working on that. Always forget about stuff like that XD

I used to use C-stick back to drop from the edge, and then either jump with Y (using my right index finger for the Y-input) or up on the joystick. That's another good and pretty easy way, although really pretty much anything should be easy if you practice enough.
I guess everybody has there own thing. PrivateJoker-Brown, spyro, and you all have slightly different variations of doing it. Probably because there is no real set form of doing things in melee. Only issue right now is that Adrian's way produces zero results(and believe me we have been practicing). Knowing him he is just going to keep doing it until it works for him, he is pretty stubborn once he decides on something. He WILL start short hopping though, that is the only part I will absolutely force upon him. Think that part is the only thing that still bugs me.

@ZachAttax64 Hopefully I won't have to do that, these controllers were expensive. Already gave Adrian a big lecture on not eating hot cheetos while training.

Also for the whole paragraph on Adrian, think I was just upset at the time. Edited that paragraph like 4 times and it stills come off as me freaking the hell out. Never writing a blog at 1 AM ever again.
 

deepseadiva

Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
8,001
Location
CO
3DS FC
1779-0766-2622
This is a really cool blog...

Posting to subscribe.
 

DakotaBonez

The Depraved Optimist
Joined
Jun 23, 2012
Messages
2,549
Location
San Marcos, Texas
I never learned wavedashing because I only recently got internet. By the time I did I was to into brawl to go back until I learned there was a secret way to ply as master hand in melee. Surprised it wasnt found out until two years after brawls release. Makes me wonder what secrets of brawl will be discovered after SSB4's release.
 

KoopaTroopa895

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
138
Teaching Children Melee 9: Video Update 3

Seriously crazy how another month has passed by. For some reason it feels like June passed by really fast. In any case it is time for a video. So let's start with Christian first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoNG2xKE2Cg

Christian had a great start. We were going really even, to be honest over the course of this month he has actually beaten me twice. Considering before hand he would just get 3 stocked even when he tried his absolute hardest. He has definitely improved. Everything was going fine....until the second stock. Christian went a little too far with edge guarding, I am almost positive that simply grabbing the ledge would've killed me. But he went for a Bair instead. It caused my super jump punch(UpB) to gimp him at 5%. This entire set begins to fall apart from this point on wards. Christian lost a lot of composure. He was starting to complain and get angry. The SD at the end made it worse.

He counter picked Rainbow Cruise. Earlier today I found out that rainbow cruise and Brinstar were banned and Kongo jungle is only allowed in doubles. Both of them picked Rainbow Cruise in there sets, so I apologize for that. Anyways I was really surprised that he picked Rainbow Cruise. Neither of us ever pick that stage...EVER. That was honestly my first time playing it in a competitive manner. Probably his too, as usual it started out pretty good. He was in the lead while on the ship. However once we got off the ship I Fsmashed him off the stage. Once again all down hill from there. I didn't even kill him the next three times. The next stock he Dair'd but the platform disappeared before he could touch it. After that he Dair'd off the ship. Then he tried crouch cancelling>Dsmash but he tried doing this on a carpet so he ended up just Dair'ing off again. The lack of experience on this stage definitely showed when playing here.

I think I might record a second set with Christian. I don't think that this video did an accurate job of reflecting his progress this month. Although it did show how easily shaken up he gets. He was definitely angry at the end of this set(for good reason). However for now lets just move on to Adrian.

Before we get to the video, I wanted to talk a little bit about the whole short jump issue with Adrian. He is making the mistake of short hop>Fair instead of short hop>Nair. However that is a common mistake and that comes out with time. In order to help him I began using Mr. Game and Watch. His bacon(or sausage don't know for sure) is the perfect projectile. The bacon shoots upwards towards a full hop and the pan hurts you if you blindly run into it. So short hopping to sex kick is the best way to deal with it(or you could just run and roll around it but there is no need to tell Adrian that =P). Plus this is the perfect chance to finally mix up characters. I haven't forgotten when you guys told me to mix characters up when teaching them. So this was a really good opportunity for that. I am a pretty crappy Mr. Game and Watch but it works out and that is all that matters. But with that being said, let's move onto the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahdzeADTHzE

The first match on FD Adrian did pretty good. I think one of his main problems is his tech is a little behind. He doesn't wave dash and there is the whole short hop thing. While we try and practice ledge hopping he has trouble with that as well. In order to try and make up for this he picked up on Christian's drop off the edge and up B. Now aside from the fact that this leaves you way open if you miss. Dr. Mario's up B is WAY worse than young links. The fact is that if I wasn't so stupidly hell bent on trying to cape him(which I need to stop doing and I should just edge guard him) he would be getting punished really badly. However he got me a couple of times so I need to stop doing that.

He counter picked Rainbow Cruise. I don't know why they both decided to go there, it must be because they were surprised it wasn't an illegal stage so it was probably just curiosity or something(its an illegal stage now anyways so it doesn't matter). Aside from both of us SD'ing like idiots at the end(once again inexperience with the level) he did about the same.

Battlefield was surprising. No johns, he wrecked my first stock. And he got some good damage in before I could retake his. He Dsmashed me twice to take out my second. At first I just thought it was an early lead. But he was actually keeping up with me on the third stock. I ended up 2 stocking him in the end though. I think his edge guard needs some work. I was definitely at kill percentage and I think he is only used to killing with his kill moves(Fair and Fsmash being his main ones). But I was honestly impressed with this match.

In other news if all goes well were going to a tournament in Chatsworth. I am almost positive we are going to this one. Unfortunately I don't think I can record any matches. I don't own a laptop. And my recording setup is simply using the preview screen of my capture card(this does sometimes causes lag). I have some money saved up to buy the parts I need. But I don't know what those parts are so slight hold on recording tourney matches. But if anybody is going to a tournament in Chatsworth and you see us we'd enjoy playing friendlies. We have little experience with high tier matchups. And we wanna meet new people as well.

One more piece of news. It turns out that I have a cousin in the competitive smash scene as well. Found out by looking in the comments of revelations 2012. Turns out I am cousins with a brawler known as Shiro. He apparently has a good wolf(4th best in NA). So he gets to help us whenever he comes over XD

That is it for now guys. See you next time =D
 

#HBC | Joker

Space Marine
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
3,864
Location
St. Clair Shores, Michigan
NNID
HBCJoker
3DS FC
1864-9780-3232
Lol, that's hilarious that Shiro is your cousin and you didn't know he plays brawl. He even has his own Wolf emoticon here on the boards :shiro:
He's a really good Brawl player, so there's probably a lot he can teach you, even about Melee.

Anyway, I really like what I'm seeing overall. I liked the improved use of fireballs, you're finally getting it. Everything mostly looks good as far as I can tell with your technique. All that's left is learning how to apply it. The only way to do that is to start playing people other than your little brothers :p Just practice practice practice, and try to play as many good players as you can. I'm not the greatest Melee player, so there's not much else I can tell ya. Hopefully better people than I will be able to help you improve more. Good luck! :)

I really like the improvment I'm seeing from Christian. He makes excellent use of shorthopped nair, and he throws out projectiles when appropriate. I know last time I said I liked it when he ledgdropped and UpB'd from the ledge, but that's just cause he had the right idea about attacking from the ledge. UpB is way too easy to punish, and it's a habit that should be squashed. The fact that it works against you just reinforces that it's a good idea, when it's not. I know he can't ledgehop>nair yet (I saw that SD endgame1) but it's a much better idea than spinattack. He should just hit A or R/L from the ledge until he gets the hang of ledgehopping. Also, the L-canceling needs work. He whiffed a lot of dairs on you game2 that got him punished cuz he didn't l-cancel them. And you're right about the first game where he SDd while trying to edgeguard. He coulda taken the ledge and been fine. He could also have let you live, and just played it careful. Sometimes there's no reason to get that aggressive, just keep playing smart and the kills will come. He only took another 26% before he killed you, which is better than losing a stock over an edgeguard. Otherwise, he played very well. If he hadn't SDd twice, that would have been a very close game.

Adrian seems like he took a step backwards. He makes lots of reckless approaches with dash attacks and full hopped fairs, with a continued lack of pills. You've already posted matches where he played better than this, so I'll just call it a bad day (although that first stock in game3 was pretty sweet). And yeah, the UpB needs to stop here too. He also doesn't recover very safely. He UpBs way too high onto the stage, when he should be going for the ledge. UpB onto the stage is a last resort option for when you're getting edgehogged. You already know what Adrian's problems are, so I'm confident you'll get him to improve with time, assuming he continues putting in the practice.
 

KoopaTroopa895

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
138
Lol, that's hilarious that Shiro is your cousin and you didn't know he plays brawl. He even has his own Wolf emoticon here on the boards :shiro:
He's a really good Brawl player, so there's probably a lot he can teach you, even about Melee.

Anyway, I really like what I'm seeing overall. I liked the improved use of fireballs, you're finally getting it. Everything mostly looks good as far as I can tell with your technique. All that's left is learning how to apply it. The only way to do that is to start playing people other than your little brothers :p Just practice practice practice, and try to play as many good players as you can. I'm not the greatest Melee player, so there's not much else I can tell ya. Hopefully better people than I will be able to help you improve more. Good luck! :)

I really like the improvment I'm seeing from Christian. He makes excellent use of shorthopped nair, and he throws out projectiles when appropriate. I know last time I said I liked it when he ledgdropped and UpB'd from the ledge, but that's just cause he had the right idea about attacking from the ledge. UpB is way too easy to punish, and it's a habit that should be squashed. The fact that it works against you just reinforces that it's a good idea, when it's not. I know he can't ledgehop>nair yet (I saw that SD endgame1) but it's a much better idea than spinattack. He should just hit A or R/L from the ledge until he gets the hang of ledgehopping. Also, the L-canceling needs work. He whiffed a lot of dairs on you game2 that got him punished cuz he didn't l-cancel them. And you're right about the first game where he SDd while trying to edgeguard. He coulda taken the ledge and been fine. He could also have let you live, and just played it careful. Sometimes there's no reason to get that aggressive, just keep playing smart and the kills will come. He only took another 26% before he killed you, which is better than losing a stock over an edgeguard. Otherwise, he played very well. If he hadn't SDd twice, that would have been a very close game.

Adrian seems like he took a step backwards. He makes lots of reckless approaches with dash attacks and full hopped fairs, with a continued lack of pills. You've already posted matches where he played better than this, so I'll just call it a bad day (although that first stock in game3 was pretty sweet). And yeah, the UpB needs to stop here too. He also doesn't recover very safely. He UpBs way too high onto the stage, when he should be going for the ledge. UpB onto the stage is a last resort option for when you're getting edgehogged. You already know what Adrian's problems are, so I'm confident you'll get him to improve with time, assuming he continues putting in the practice.
The only thing with me is I shorthop Nair to much. I mean it is a good approach, but it is pretty much all I do. I don't know how many approaches a character is supposed to have to begin with. But Mario's approaches seem limited(either that or there are ones I don't know) so I think I am going to be working on my defensive game, shield grab, wavedashing OoS. Trying to punish more. Anytime I land a string of attacks I could never finish them. Trying to get some habits out of me too. Every time I do a punch punch kick(A>A>A) I immediately follow with a wavedash backwards.

Ironically Christian usually gets the ledgehop to Nair pretty well. I was genuinely surprised he fast falled, he is used to going left or whatever the opposite side of the stage is. I like how good Christian is getting too. I wish I could say more, but I simply don't know enough about young link.

As for Adrian, you are right when he has taken a slight step backwards. I am hoping that once he gets a decent pill game and a short hop to Nair approach going. He may be able to get better matches. I wish I could say it was a bad game, but that is how his games have been as of lately. He acknowledges his issues though, so with any luck he should be able to do something about them.

When it comes to recovery I think the reason we all(me too) find the upB so efficient is the way we edgeguard. Looking at the videos were way too close to the ledge. So ledgehop Nairs often get us smacked by an Fsmash from doc or a Down smash from Christian. And while being close to the edge is certainly good sometimes(for capes and stuff) it usually just results in an attack from below. So probably going to start spacing those XD

Didn't think shiro had his own face....that's the coolest thing ever!
 

#HBC | Joker

Space Marine
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
3,864
Location
St. Clair Shores, Michigan
NNID
HBCJoker
3DS FC
1864-9780-3232
If you know a ledgehopped attack is gonna get you smacked, then airdodge>waveland through them instead, or just roll. You don't have to attack from the ledge every time, that results in predictable, punishable play.

And to approach with Mario, there's lots of things you can still do to mix it up. Jump higher and use dair instead, jump over them and hit their back with bair, run towards them on the ground and bait a reaction with dash dances and wavedashes, or just throw fireballs at them while caping their **** back until they approach instead. It's all about not having predictable habits and using different approaches.

I always really liked dashing straight at my opponent, then wavedashing backwards as soon as I get in their range. Helps you prod them to find out what their reactions are like, so you can figure out how to punish their habits. You already know your brother's habits, so you prolly won't have to do much prodding. Making it a habit to play safe while feeling out your opponent is an ok habit to have though.

Also, tell Christian he can edgeguard without going offstage. If he stands right next to the ledge and crouches, all he's gotta do is time his downtilt just right to spike you guys away from the ledge just before you grab it. It's kinda hit or miss, but it's so satisfying when it hits :)
 
Top Bottom