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Teaching casual players, and other things..

Powderfinger

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
23
Location
That hill with the eyes and what-not.
So, everyone here who loves the competition and playing with great players and all that. How many of you also play with "newbs" and people who play more casually. Do you give advice to newer players? How do YOU teach newer/casual players? What are the most important aspects of the game to know/teach newer players?

How do you help players who are at a lower levels of competitive play to improve? Can you help casual players improve to competitive levels?

I'm out of thought power at the moment..but more questions later?
 

Sliq

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
4,871
The best way for newbs to get better is to play people slightly better then them. If they play someone vastly superior all of the time, they won't learn as much (sort of like sensory overload, except with stock ******). It is good to have someone extremely good around to "tell" the newb what he needs to do, but you can only have them work on a few aspects at a time, or they'll have to many balls in the air (just like your mom OH NO HE DIDN'T).
 

Kaa

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
35
Location
New York, QUEENS!
First thing I would do to help out a "newb" would be to direct them to this site...explain to them the tier list...pick a character they enjoy...teach them the basics and start them off with a few advanced techniques and slowly but surely allow them to learn the aspects and engine of SSBM...rushing stuff like that might ruin their feel for the game...also showing them videos of the character they like and seeing that it IS possible to own like that might hype them up like it did me.

So yeah, Kaa's two cents.
 

Dylan_Tnga

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
4,644
Location
Montreal Canada
Kick the living crap out of them over and over. If they take it like a man and improve their game and don't john than they have what it takes to improve and you should give them advice at ALL times, if they'll take it.

If they respond to advice with ''I ALREADY KNOW!'' or get angry when you don't sandbag them, or just win in general than they shouldn't show their scrub faces at any smash gathering.

I only got good at smash by accepting that I sucked, getting owned by great players, and signing up on this forum after 2 YEARS of playing, because I didnt consider myself worthy to post until I could at least do most of the ''advanced'' techs and had videos to prove I wasnt a total nub.

Then the brawl forums pissed the living **** out of me, but thats another story.
 

theONEjanitor

Smash Champion
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
2,497
Location
Birmingham, AL
NNID
the1janitor
well of course its possible to teach a casual player
advice that i find my self giving really super noobs is about teching.
like you have to tell them to make sure to Tech ALL THE TIME. some people don't tech at all. its just begging to be smashed.

other than that its mainly learning character specific strats and character matchups.
 

DippnDots

Feral Youth
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
2,149
Location
Cbus, Ohio
Put two friends in a room with only two chairs, two GC controllers, a gamecube, a tv, and a copy of smash.

Tell them to play each other for 4 hours straight each day, and whoever has the most wins will get to eat that day.

I promise at least one of them will improve.
 

Dylan_Tnga

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
4,644
Location
Montreal Canada
well of course its possible to teach a casual player
advice that i find my self giving really super noobs is about teching.
like you have to tell them to make sure to Tech ALL THE TIME. some people don't tech at all. its just begging to be smashed.

other than that its mainly learning character specific strats and character matchups.
I say with n00bs the first thing to teach em is defensive strategies because they're what most people learn last. Show them how easy it is to DI, and to techroll. dont worry about ledgetechs because those require really good timing, theyre for later on.

Then comes tech skill, shffling, wavedashing, everything inbetween depending on which character they're playing.

Then comes general strategy, and finally mindgamesk. You can't excecute mindgames or control your opponent or use strategy well until you can control your character well, ie : you have tech skill.

You dont need to be Mew2king here, you just need to be able to get your character to do what you want him/her to do, when you want him/her to do it, without that ability you can't hope to mindgame or strtegize, you'll end up attacking at random, and getting owned.
 

Kaa

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
35
Location
New York, QUEENS!
I say with n00bs the first thing to teach em is defensive strategies because they're what most people learn last. Show them how easy it is to DI, and to techroll. dont worry about ledgetechs because those require really good timing, theyre for later on.
Thats a great point.
 

UnChienAndalousa

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
129
Location
Wooster, OH
I play with nubs sometimes, and this always depends on what they suck at. One nub-ish player I play with doesn't jump with X or Y, and thus sucks at short hopping. He also has problems with l-canceling and wavedashing, so I try to tell him to practice that stuff. But the responsibility is entirely on the self, nobody gets good at this game without some initiative. That particular player hasn't heeded my advice, so he's still not good. I guess, fostering an interest is the best idea, maybe showing vids or something.
 

blayde_axel

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
3,038
Location
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Thanks. I was about to ask about the same question. Talk about a good search function.

Although I'm not a pro myself... in fact, I'm just learning the adv. techs... I'm trying to teach someone about Smash. I don't know why, but he chooses to main Kirby/Pikachu. Got any character-specific advice?

Oh yeah... his timing's pretty bad. He can't even pull of Pikachu's Up-B properly. >.>
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
Location
Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
Lol, Sliq's pic posts are freakin hilarious. I like this guy.

I'm starting to accept Dylan's theory of having a MUCH superior player teach nubs. BUT with some changes:

- instead of ****** over and over and having the other guy not john and just improve.... it'd be better if the relationship was more polite, with advice, practice on specifics, etc. instead of just ****** all the time.
- have those nubs become trained nubs by practicing what they've learned on the community of other trained nubs. if they win, it'll give them a confidence boost. if they lose, hopefully they'll have more motivation.
- after all that, go back to the main person teaching and learn more and talk about why they won/lost that other time, etc. etc.
- rinse and repeat... its the best way to get better for nubs

ps. only train nubs if they WANT to get better. i say if they wanna have fun and play with items and FFA.... heck, i'm all for it. (or maybe that's just cuz i've been in the tourny scene for so long that intense friendlies just get too stressful sometimes lol)
 

Conformal_Invariance

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
203
Location
On the border of Westminster and Arvada, CO, in a
ps. only train nubs if they WANT to get better. i say if they wanna have fun and play with items and FFA.... heck, i'm all for it. (or maybe that's just cuz i've been in the tourny scene for so long that intense friendlies just get too stressful sometimes lol)
This is a very good point.

Being a casual player myself with a bit of advanced knowledge under my belt gives me somewhat of a decent viewpoint here.

If people are just happy with tossing about Paper Fans, Bob-Ombs, Pokeballs on Very High on Brinstar Depths, let them!

Change should not be forced.

I can somewhat understand if say, one person stood alone in their skill, mixed in together with those of a simpler skill - worlds apart.

Should you train someone, though.. I'd have to agree with 'nater in that it should be a polite type of training.
 

Binx

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
4,038
Location
Portland, Oregon
The best way for a newer player to learn is the same way a good player should learn, go to tournaments, in tournament play you really want to win, it isn't the same as a friendly game, they will get better experience against more players and characters and more styles than just their one friend or their pro.

The way I learned was I had 2 friends and all 3 of us competed pretty much constantly for 6 months with only eachother and videos, one friend went to corvalis and played the best player in my Oregon for 3 months, came back and taught me and my other friend tricks that he had learned and opened up a new way of thinking for us. We are steadily got better and better until this day where we still improve, although we all play many people instead of just eachother now.

I honestly think the best way to improve is to have a Rival who is as driven as you are, plenty of local tournaments on a very regular and constant basis, and lots of practicing in friendlies and trying out new things. Also you should practice your tech skill for a solid hour a day especially at a lower level, to develop good muscle memory.
 

TheFifthMan

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 26, 2006
Messages
266
Location
A couple blocks away from Purdue University
Don't just up and say, "Okay, you really need to learn to techland." Wait for your would-be student to ask about something you did, then tell them an overview of what it does. If they're interested, tell them how to do it. If you really want to get them interested, pull off something weird and flashy like shuffle chains or shine infinites in combat.

If an unskilled friend you're playing with tells you to stop doing something "cheap," like chaingrabbing or spiking (or Wobbling, if you really feel evil), stop. Hopefully after a while he'll pick up more stuff and eventually won't mind that. If not, then what's more important: your friendship or advanced Smash?
 

full_95

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
305
Location
Lancaster, PA / Golden, CO
i play scrubs all the time (my roommates and hallmates), and ive found the best advice ive given was "do attacks that work, not attacks that you want to do." do not, under any circumstances teach a new player WD before L cancel and SH. i was teachin my buddy to play luigi last spring and i made that mistake. he got pretty good at WD, but he never learned L cancel and SH. i tried to teach them after he learned about WD and he literally couldnt stop trying to WD. so he basically became a scrub that could WD really consistently, but in the wrong situations. he used luigi's horrendous dash attack, and the headbutt as an attack even though i told him they were aweful moves.

hes basically quit now cuz he stopped getting better... that, and our other friend that just started playin with samus 2 stocked him and he doesnt know any advanced stuff. i taught the kid which samus moves are effective and he used attacks that worked, thus destroying my dumb wavedashing luigi buddy (who was talking mad **** before the match cuz he "knows how to WD"). basically, if you're playing with some one that isnt actively trying to get better, there's really nothing you can teach them other than which moves are best for each character in the most common situations that come up in pretty much every match. if you are trying to teach a scrub apprentice that wants to get better, most definitely start with L cancel, SH, spot dodge, chain grabbing, dash dance, etc... basically, how to use all the basic techniques in an advanced way. then let them WD.

if some one already said that, my b, i didnt feel like reading all the posts.
 

Binx

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
4,038
Location
Portland, Oregon
I learned wavedash before I learned L cancel and I play fine now, you NEED everything you can use at a high level metagame(although mine is just medium) but still all aspects of SHFFL are more important than wavedash with most if not all characters, but really proper spacing alone will set apart noobs and intermediate players. There are so many nuances that just need to be learned through playing the game its mind numbing.
 

Gekigarion

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Messages
61
I, too, learned how to WD before L-cancelling and SH. However, after watching some videos of the top players, I was prompted to learn the latter two quickly.

The most common reaction I get when I show my friends those videos are "How the **** do they move so fast?!" That's where I come in and explain how they use L-cancelling, SHing, WDing and Wavelanding to move with such efficiency and grace. I explain that by simply mastering L-cancelling by itself, they will have an enormous advantage over their non-L-cancelling buddies in the future.

And thus, my friends usually learn how to L-cancel first. Since SH and L-cancel sort of come hand-in-hand, they usually learn SH somewhere on the way too. And WD just comes to each individual at different times. (It only took me about 2 days to master WD, but 1 month to actually learn how to use it in play, and alternatively, a buddy of mine 5 weeks to master WD and half a week to learn how to use it practically in-game.)

Of course, more importantly than being able to do any of those three is knowing the character you're playing. New players usually will start off by spamming B button attacks. Obviously, if they are doing this, the first thing to teach them is that using A attacks, grabbing, shielding and dodging are all important too.

After they learn to use the A button, that's usually when they start using normal attacks-- but the wrong ones. For example, they may use Samus' Fair on an opponent in front of them when they should be using the Nair. They will simply press the direction of where the opponent is and press A, which isn't the best habit either. Learning how to use their attacks and knowing when to use them is something that most people seem to get stuck on, and thus never get better.

Just as well, I'm sure you all know as well as I do that defending/dodging properly is a huge part of the game. Most new players love to spam their roll and then counterattack. Fix this by WDing or Dashdancing and punishing them every time they roll. Either they'll ask how you always manage to get them, or they'll start understanding on their own. Either way, that's when you can teach them how to dodge attacks properly. I don't recommend teaching the standing dodge too early because I notice that many people get stuck in a habit where they rely on it so much that it's ridiculously easy to read when they will do it.

If they're interested enough in becoming skilled at the game, they will learn how to do things eventually, even if they're not that adept at it in the first place. So pointing them to this board and giving them good videos to watch will probably amp them up quite a bit.

Ultimately, it's just like Big Burn said: Experience is the key. There are so many variables that go on in the game at once. For example, doing combos will involve your character's position in accordance to your opponent's, spacing of the attack you need to use, the location of where you actually hit your opponent with that attack (i.e. Tipper or no tipper or an attack like Y.Link's dair), your opponent's %, his DI, etc.! It's better to experience these elements rather than to explain them, so just get your buddy's hands on a controller and smash away!
 

full_95

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
305
Location
Lancaster, PA / Golden, CO
i mean teach em those more basic moves if they are gonna practice against you, cuz they wont WD very well in the beginning at all. i also leanred WD before all the other moves, but i tought myself. if i did it over again with the knowledge i have now, i would definitely have started with the more basic moves. anyways, starting from the ground up always works faster and more effectively.
 

Phun

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
2
Location
South Dakota
When teaching my friends, I find it effective to show them something, let them use it successfully for a while, then, after they're comfortable with it, punish it.

Example: Taught my friend how to CC, played a match where I used my dash attack too often (on purpose), he did well. Next match, I started spiking him out of crouches, and now he knows how to cc but doesn't overuse it. It's working well, he's improved.
 

Superstarmario

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
254
I first make my friends want to get better. By kicking the crap out of me, and destorying their comfort zone in roll whoring.

Then show off, aaaaaand teach.
 

brg

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
545
I play with nubs sometimes, and this always depends on what they suck at. One nub-ish player I play with doesn't jump with X or Y, and thus sucks at short hopping. He also has problems with l-canceling and wavedashing, so I try to tell him to practice that stuff. But the responsibility is entirely on the self, nobody gets good at this game without some initiative. That particular player hasn't heeded my advice, so he's still not good. I guess, fostering an interest is the best idea, maybe showing vids or something.
i know someone who doesnt jump with x/y, doesnt L-cancel, and is pretty ****ing good
 
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