Teach me how to Marth ditto

[Ether]

I don't get to play other Marths often, so I don't really know what goes on in another Marth's head. So tell me what goes on in your head as you fight against Marth.

There's this video as a reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcUn8159keQ&feature=relmfu


I guess I'm struggling with knowing when to do three things:

1. dash dance
2. dash attack
3. dtilt


I'm sure the answer is simple.

 

[knightpraetor]

yo ether, is this you? this is KP

 

[Ether]

Yeahhhhhh, sup KP. I'm trying to learn Marth dittos. Are you back in sova?

 

[knightpraetor]

lol sorry i'm actually leaving the country for the summer. i dunno when i will get to play everyone:\

we should talk about marth dittos some at some point..but not tonight..sleepy. why are you worried about marths? they will all just get knocked out by sheiks and falcos, so you won't have to play them

 

[Ether]

I might in pools, or if my opponent knows I'm weak to Marth. But mostly I won't feel like a good Marth player if I'm not amazing at the ditto.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Lol Ether. I suck at the ditto, but if you come down for TO8 we can just ditto all day. How's your falco game coming along?

 

[Ether]

better than my Fox game, that's for sure. >_< I lost to two Foxes at the last tourney I went to.

When's TO8?

 

[.Chipmunk.]

better than my Fox game, that's for sure. >_< I lost to two Foxes at the last tourney I went to.

When's TO8?

3rd weekend in July. 21-22 i think. Don't quote me on that but it's somewhere around that time. My fox game is by far superior to my falco game right now. We can swap tips if you show up.

 

[Ether]

dayum. This. could. be. fun.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well, despite this turning into a little reunion lol ...
From neutral, I usually keep it in my mind to avoid being the first to throw out an attack unless I know for certain they are in a bad spot. So, I feel baiting through dash dancing, shielding, rolling, jumping onto platforms, then getting off is really about the only thing I feel I can do.

If I get a grab, I'll go for Fthrow junk for the longest time to figure out how they DI. Usually, they know to DI away to avoid any follow-ups, but cannot always do it. Or they simply have no idea what they are doing period. In that case, I'll just spam Fthrow -> fsmash at near ledges, or Fthrow -> Sh double fair or just a Fair follow-ups and work them offstage by staying under platforms.

When getting hit by a marth, I usually want to do whatever I can to DI as far away as possible to get offstage. Although, stuff like Utilt and Dash Attack really screw that DI up. Usually mix-in an airdodge, SideB, 2nd jump to avoid an attack to get down. But generally, being above marth is bad and shouldn't always rely on hose stalling tactics.

Offstage, sweetspotting that ledge is super important. Also, I'm almost always concerned about a random Fsmash being thrown in.

 

[S0FT]

I figured out these general strategies put me in good positions but I wasn't playing that good of a marth soo....

If the marth is approaching with a lot of aerials I short hopped naired a lot and that setup for a lot of great combos obviously. If the marth is playing a defensive ground game though I tried to space fairs to bait the approach and would then dash dance grab. Usually a fthrow to upthrow uptilt and combo like that. Also wave dash ftilting seems to be pretty good vs a dash dancing marth.

 

[Ether]

wow, really good tips. Thanks you guys.

 

[knightpraetor]

"Also wave dash Dtilting seems to be pretty good vs a dash dancing marth."

corrected. To be fair though ftilt is great..but unless they are at kill percent or going to get knocked off by the ftilt, dtilt is much better.

that strategy of nairing a lot if hte marth is trying to use a lot of aerial heavy play makes sense...but for some reason i just fair anyway.

dunno, the nair vs fair choice is one of the hardest choices for marth in every matchup. well, they have different uses, but especially for comboing, if the opponent whiffs in front of you in the air and you know you have a free hit, which do you take. what will combo better...what do you do when all your moves combo..

ah the life of a marth main..so many combos what to do. however, both inside fair and nair are not DIable in 1 hit, fair because it's inside and has insufficient knockback...nair because you can aim it so you travel with the move and then even if they DI away they are still in range.

to me, the matchup mostly seems to revolve around your dashdance grab/dash attack game...and occasionally dashdance aerials. I used to play aerial style marth in dittos but i phased that out and only use those things when my opponent is at a disadvantage (boxed out at the ledge), or when i need a kill (aerials so much better than grabs for that). I'm honestly a nub at this matchup though..when I think about it I've been on par with most marths I've played but that's cause no marth bothers to really learn all the options in the matchup for one simple reason: if your dashdance/aerial spacing is better than your opponent's, you will win regardless of style and efficiency.

Only important thing I keep in mind in this matchup is that marth is good at combo breaking, so it's good to wait for the break attempt and then punish them even harder for trying to get out of the combos...marth's pressure on a marth above him coming down is tooo good...and marth doesn't have peach's options to break combos so you can even get away with fake combos and being spaced too closely on inside fairs, which would be high risk against peach

 

[Metal Reeper]

Dash cancel>Dtilts really are your best friend in this matchup. I agree a lot with what Xeylode said. If you realize they know about the fthrow>Fsmash you can Uthrow>Utilt. I believe they can jump out of the uthrow before the Utilt connects, but then you just stay underneath them and punish them for using their second jump. Hit them off stage and that stock is yours my friend, easier said than done though.

 

[knightpraetor]

everyone always talks about dash cancel dtilts and dtilts but i just grab and dash attack. dtilt is lower risk lower reward..but i think i would only use dashcancel dtilt at low percents when i can't just dash attack. but even then I would only use it if the marth is defending against grab with a lot of dtilts...however, no marths i've played have defended themselves with repeated dtilts

 

[007-jake]

Well, despite this turning into a little reunion lol ...
From neutral, I usually keep it in my mind to avoid being the first to throw out an attack unless I know for certain they are in a bad spot. So, I feel baiting through dash dancing, shielding, rolling, jumping onto platforms, then getting off is really about the only thing I feel I can do.

If I get a grab, I'll go for Fthrow junk for the longest time to figure out how they DI. Usually, they know to DI away to avoid any follow-ups, but cannot always do it. Or they simply have no idea what they are doing period. In that case, I'll just spam Fthrow -> fsmash at near ledges, or Fthrow -> Sh double fair or just a Fair follow-ups and work them offstage by staying under platforms.

When getting hit by a marth, I usually want to do whatever I can to DI as far away as possible to get offstage. Although, stuff like Utilt and Dash Attack really screw that DI up. Usually mix-in an airdodge, SideB, 2nd jump to avoid an attack to get down. But generally, being above marth is bad and shouldn't always rely on hose stalling tactics.

Offstage, sweetspotting that ledge is super important. Also, I'm almost always concerned about a random Fsmash being thrown in.

All of your points sound dead-on and I agree with it all. The only thing I would add is that "less-skilled"marths tend to throw out a lot of unnecessary SH Nairs and actually intend on hitting their opponent. I, personally, throw out a lot fewer SH Nairs than I used to, and use them for additional baiting/spacing, without the real intention of landing them. Unless of course they are in a bad spot and you're certain it'll land.

 

[mers]

Learn to read their movement. Dittos get a whole lot easier when you can figure out when they're going to move forward or backward. I get a whole lot of really silly looking grabs where I'll run up right in their face and chase them down because I figured out they're going to dash away instead of holding ground and hitting/grabbing me.

 

[Medz!]

Learn to techchase. Believe me it helps out a lot becase you put the other marth player in a bad situation. Also punish a f-smash happy marth with WD oos. In ground game d-tilts are really good. It doesn't let the other marth player run circles around and if you do it correctly it will let you get a grab. When edgeguarding I usually edgeguard with counter because even if they sweetspot it they will get hit and it will make it easier on you.

Hope this helps.

 

[Ether]

I like all of these tips. I'll let you guys know if I think of anything new, too.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I like all of these tips. I'll let you guys know if I think of anything new, too.

So, what I didn't get to tell you last we spoke, and what I was kinda seeing in my matches with SleepyKong is that Marth's dash attack works much like Peach's or Sheik's in that Marth gets low to the ground so he can sneak under those short hop aerials and punish. Not the only time to use dash attack of course, but something to look out for.

 

[Stylez]

I've also been having a lot of problems with this matchup, specifically at a neutral position. IMO, what movements are made and attacks exchanged during this time is what determines the match (unless against two people of obviously different skill levels).
Take 1:20 in the OP's video: Though a grab-approach is one of marth's safest, it seems to work against you in this matchup because it has less range than any other of his moves. It results in him loosing the advantage of this neutrality, and (eventually) his stock. Someone please correct me if i'm wrong, but this matchup is purely dependent on who can hold their space the longest in a standstill.

 

[Mr. Bean]

simple question. I obviously know to DI away during Fthrow shenanigans, but should i be DI-ing down and away? or just away?